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View Poll Results: Larger step forward?
Vista 186 60.39%
Xylo 122 39.61%
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Old 6th February 2009, 17:12   #91
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Raj I would suggest you talk to some engineer working in Bosch on Mahindra project to find out how much of the engine development/tuning is Mahindras effort , Yes some one in mahindra selected AVL and Bosch out of list of vendors and made them work together . Some times it so happens
that you reach one vendor and they suggest others also known as 'consultancy' in industry terminology
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
Thats the point. In this day and age we will never know who developed what. Tata was good enough to say it was Fiat engine. Maruti did not even bother to do that! So perhaps its much easier to judge by the product.

But as Raj said Mahindra's mHawk is impressive in its own right. No doubt about it. But it might be some poor souls somewhere else who might have toiled on it.
yes, it may be true but we can give here the benefit of doubt to mahindra. they have never been poor with engines, even before bosch had to interfer with their CRDi systems.

i belive that credit should be given where its due. so as i said, in case of vista the entire unit is sourced from fiat. so in the mEagle, even if mahindra's contribution is just 30%, mahindra still has an edge over tata. we are doing a comparo right?
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Old 6th February 2009, 17:48   #92
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
yes, it may be true but we can give here the benefit of doubt to mahindra. they have never been poor with engines, even before bosch had to interfer with their CRDi systems.

i belive that credit should be given where its due. so as i said, in case of vista the entire unit is sourced from fiat. so in the mEagle, even if mahindra's contribution is just 30%, mahindra still has an edge over tata. we are doing a comparo right?
Mahindras contribution in older 2.6 CRDe engine was cast Iron block , With mHwak that also went away
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Old 6th February 2009, 18:36   #93
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Mahindras contribution in older 2.6 CRDe engine was cast Iron block , With mHwak that also went away
have you worked with mahindra?
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Old 7th February 2009, 10:30   #94
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Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
This is not a head to head comparison. Both the Vista and the Xylo are being compared to find out which one of these is a step ahead in terms of improvement by our Indian manufacturers. They specs and body styles have nothing to do with this.
I get that, what I do not get is the statement that "the Vista will be Xylo's toughest competitor in the market"
Anyway, nevermind. Peace
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Old 7th February 2009, 14:13   #95
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Apropos all recent posts; Xylo is a 'New' vehicle rather than being an 'improved' hatchback akin the Vista.
Quality and price over old wine in a new bottle seems to be the issue. Can't TATA refine the Indica/Vista's low cost Diesel appeal to producing a car which truly a medium Indian Urban family will aspire to:
(a) Ergonomical and comfortable space
(b) Good mileage
(c) Good after sales
I maybe wrong but i feel diesel as a fuel, especially the quality on sale in India, however sets the standard for quality of Diesel engines, not to take anything away from the Fiat Palio MJD.
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Old 7th February 2009, 16:00   #96
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Guys, While both TATAs and Mahindras are innovating on their home turf for product improvement. I think the market segment for which they are launching products is to be kept under perspective. The Vista will be competing in the hatch segment with scores of other vehicles, whereas the XYLO is taking Toyota Innova head-on. Now that is what impresses me, considering the fact that the Innova is a market leader in its space.

It is a smart (ingenious) move by Mahindra to launch the XYLO (ingenio). I guess the newest vehicle from the TATA stable in this segment (SUMO GRANDE) doesn't cut it. The 2.2L engine might be good but the vehicles styling and exteriors are downright ugly..

Also, Vista is only a slight improvement over its predecessor, but they have shrunk the boot space, which is bad for a family owned vehicle. Fiat Palio MJD beats Vista QJD hands down any day.
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Old 7th February 2009, 16:08   #97
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
have you worked with mahindra?
I don't but some one in family worked there long time back also I had a friend working in Bosch who worked on M&M project.

One more funny incidence my elder sister ( 7 years elder to me) after her engineering went for job interview at M&M at Nasik plant in 1991 , Those were the pre IT days and very few girls use to enter engineering and fewer plants use to employ ladies.
Interview panel asked what kind of job you would opt if given a choice. With innocence of a fresher she responded R&D and was met by a roar of laughter by folks talking interview basically what they told her was there is no such thing as R&D , Of course things changed over the years.
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Old 7th February 2009, 17:14   #98
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With innocence of a fresher she responded R&D and was met by a roar of laughter by folks talking interview basically what they told her was there is no such thing as R&D ,
The two oldest car makers in the country, Hindustan Motors and Premier Automobiles Ltd, who also enjoyed a monopoly of the entire market, still do not have any R&D!
Tata and M&M must be lauded for their efforts!
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Old 7th February 2009, 18:11   #99
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
I don't but some one in family worked there long time back also I had a friend working in Bosch who worked on M&M project.

One more funny incidence my elder sister ( 7 years elder to me) after her engineering went for job interview at M&M at Nasik plant in 1991 , Those were the pre IT days and very few girls use to enter engineering and fewer plants use to employ ladies.
Interview panel asked what kind of job you would opt if given a choice. With innocence of a fresher she responded R&D and was met by a roar of laughter by folks talking interview basically what they told her was there is no such thing as R&D , Of course things changed over the years.
ohh, i thought you work in mahindra since you had such a detailed report on mahindra's involvement with its engines... no kidding.

since you are talking about jobs and R&D, let me tell you the present fact. i study in MHSS which apparently is the only 'Govt. recognized' college in mumbai having automobile engineering. many auto companies come here for campus selection & believe me or not, its the toughest to get a job with mahindra. they literally select only the top 10 students, interview them & select the best three. and mostly all the students want a job in mahindra because their pay is the highest!

comparitively TATA selects 15-20 students but very few are interested because they are eventually given the job of selling 'TATA insurance plans'!!! TATA DOES NOT prefer automobile students for their automotive sector!

Last edited by raj_5004 : 7th February 2009 at 18:12.
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Old 8th February 2009, 15:05   #100
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
ohh, i thought you work in mahindra since you had such a detailed report on mahindra's involvement with its engines... no kidding.
Wel my report is quite accurate as it is from Bosch
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
comparitively TATA selects 15-20 students but very few are interested because they are eventually given the job of selling 'TATA insurance plans'!!! TATA DOES NOT prefer automobile students for their automotive sector!
Tata AIG insurance and Tata moters are two different companies, Each of them pay 1% royalty to group holding company Tata Sons for using Tata name and logo.
Tata Motors has one of the best automative research unit they do recruit some good people also , may not be from your college.
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Old 8th February 2009, 15:39   #101
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
The two oldest car makers in the country, Hindustan Motors and Premier Automobiles Ltd, who also enjoyed a monopoly of the entire market, still do not have any R&D!
Tata and M&M must be lauded for their efforts!
Cyrus' Dad used to work at premier's R&D. he's posted his stories here
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-thread-3.html (The Premier Automobiles Ltd - The Remembrances Thread)
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Old 8th February 2009, 16:50   #102
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Wel my report is quite accurate as it is from Bosch


Tata AIG insurance and Tata moters are two different companies, Each of them pay 1% royalty to group holding company Tata Sons for using Tata name and logo.
Tata Motors has one of the best automative research unit they do recruit some good people also , may not be from your college.
amit, i was talking about your comment about the non-crde engine of the older scorpio: "mahindra's involvement was just cast iron"!

even top rated companies seek help from external source for building engines. but we never say its NOT their engine. for example the 1.3 multijet unit is built by FIAT. nobody is asking for a detailed analysis as to who helped FIAT to what extent. its an excellent engine & hence FIAT has received numerous awards for it. so why cant mahindra be given the credit for the mEagle & mHawk? i feel you under-rate mahindra a lot!

why do TATA AIG need automobile students in their company? i dont have any big respect for TATA's R&D as their products have not impressed me one bit. but leaving that apart, lets get to the what the actual debate was...

mahindra is using its own engine in the xylo, even if bosch has helped them, its mahindra's engine! TATA uses FIAT's engine, so when we are doing a comparo in this respect, additional points should be given to mahindra. if mahindra's effort in the mEagle is less, TATA's effort in the multijet is ZERO!
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Old 8th February 2009, 16:56   #103
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Are we getting too far away from the real intention of this thread?
As far as I understand, this thread is between two products rather than two companies. Which product has more technological advances and has brought more proud to the manufacturer.
Am I wrong here?
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Old 8th February 2009, 16:59   #104
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what i know is tata's have a better plant layout and futuristic equipments for both the final assembly and power train assembly and machining. they are giving a lot of emphasis on the flexibilty of the lines. Mahindra have quite a unidimensional line and although they put too much emphasis on the cost (which is very important alright) but they tend to compromise on the machine tools and assembly systems. i do not dispute that their final product is very good but in order to take make a mark on the developed markets they need to do a lot more with their lines.
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Old 8th February 2009, 19:22   #105
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what i know is tata's have a better plant layout and futuristic equipments for both the final assembly and power train assembly and machining. they are giving a lot of emphasis on the flexibilty of the lines. Mahindra have quite a unidimensional line and although they put too much emphasis on the cost (which is very important alright) but they tend to compromise on the machine tools and assembly systems. i do not dispute that their final product is very good but in order to take make a mark on the developed markets they need to do a lot more with their lines.


mahindra is still at a developing stage when compared to TATA. TATA has much more resources than M&M.
but what TATA should concentrate more on is making reliable vehicles & not just cheap & efficient ones. apart from the vista, there is nothing else from the tata stable which i would recommend to anyone, although i am not aware of the overall reliability of the vista.

if the vista proves to be more reliable than the other TATA cars, then it DEFINITELY is a step ahead from TATA.
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