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Old 17th April 2010, 14:02   #46
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Certain ongoing discussions in the Nano thread revealed another angle!
Its not just tolerance.
Some people feel, that since the vehicle they are buying is low cost, its perfectly acceptable for the quality and reliability to be poor, and since we get what we pay for, people who complain about issues are "whiners" .
More than that, the Nano discussion also reveals a third angle. Most of the arguments there are along the lines of "...it happens to every other car so why are you picking on the Nano.."

So don't worry if your car breaks down. It happens to other cars in the world too, you see! As a customer, you should be thanking God that you have a car in the first place rather than whining about these "commonplace issues".
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Old 17th April 2010, 14:56   #47
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What ever car you buy 1L/1Cr car, catching fire should not be a property of the car. And this is highly not acceptable at any cost. Safety/Luxary u can compromise with the car cost but not some min feature. If some day the wheel goes off will we say that as it is low cost these kind of thing acceptable from company...
My point is that our entrepreneur/MNC really dont care of the customer. They feel its India and they can do any thing kind of thing...
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Old 17th April 2010, 15:40   #48
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The original post really made me laugh out loud.

I think one of the reasons is that the cars made for the indian market have to be
a) cheap to buy
b) cheap to run

Thats pretty much. Now, if you try adding something like performance into the equation, while keeping others constants, what you get is somewhat of a "Jugaad".

Customer thinks that he is spending 5 lakh so he's entitled to the world, but that is simply not how it is.

You get what you pay.

On the other hand, it is really quite baffling how such things can happen in premium cars like brand new benzes and superbs. Thats just a plain and simple quality issue.
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Old 17th April 2010, 18:24   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Certain ongoing discussions in the Nano thread revealed another angle!
Its not just tolerance.
Some people feel, that since the vehicle they are buying is low cost, its perfectly acceptable for the quality and reliability to be poor, and since we get what we pay for, people who complain about issues are "whiners" .

So reviving this discussion.
Is this not tolerance.
How many people actually feel that when they buy a great VFM vehicle, its perfectly okay to have sub par reliability?
If there are lots who feel that way, then I shudder, because at a talk where a leading manager of a very big auto company told his part suppliers the very same thing.
"Quality is secondary, make sure that the car is big, comfortable and cheap, thats what the customer wants."

The tolerance aspect with respect to the nano could be understood because the main purpose of the visionary of this car, Mr Ratan Tata had in mind was to provide an average indian family comprising of 2 adults and 2 kids to move on 4 wheels instead of 2, while keeping the running cost of the vehicle on par with that of a two wheeler, He didn't have a luxury car in mind. His basic concept was to provide 4 wheels with seats, which I believe he has achieved to a great extent. With greater number of features, price will increase proportionally with the diesel, electric versions of the nano in the pipeline in the future.
Given the success of the indica, I'm just optimistic about the fact that the nano should be reliable in the long term, IMHO it's too early to judge that just yet.
It's the A.S.S that tata needs to work on and thats the factor that shouldn't be tolerated by us, By all means we have to agree the GP is a great machine,(given its success throughout the world) but if there's one reason that the general public wouldn't go in for the car is the headache that the tata-fiat A.S.S. So until they get their act together, they are still going to take a beating in terms of sales relatively
Because at the end of the day, after our homes, the car is among our biggest investments, we would like to have trouble free ownership and not see it in the service station every second day.
And as far as VFM is concerned, I strongly believe the average indian buyer is waking up. We are ready to pay money provided its worth the amount.
A simple example being the i20, we have to agree that it's a premium hatch, but it's still a runaway success. a couple of reasons being it's got good quality interiors, and overall feel good factor about it, decent FE supported by Hyundai's excellent A.S.S the only negative being the underpowered engine, which people ignore because if it's used for city purposes, it travels anywhere between 40-100kmph so I'm guessing they can live with that.

Whereas you take the Honda Jazz, I agree, a great product, everything about it is great, but the main negative, It's way too overpriced, ask Honda to bring it down by about 50k-1lakh(i'm not sure how practical it is for them to do that) even if it means resorting to cost cutting by removing a couple of features but then see how its gives the competition a run for its money.
The people who want the features would pay the premium or for the enthusiasts like us would get our ICE, alloys and other modifications go after market for a better price.
Point I'm trying to make is, We don't mind spending cash if its worth the product. Another example to prove my point is the i10 is just a few 1000 units short of now maruti's flagship product the alto, why? because even though its slightly more expensive, its more VFM than a basic alto.
This is also 1 reason i see GM doing well in the near future, because they offer the 3years cashless ownership experience, This is a great offer provided "no conditions apply" besides the accidental damages etc. because the indian consumer is looking for a trouble free experience, and if given that, I don't see why we wouldn't pay a premium or try a brand like GM which has gone bankrupt in the US
everything said and done, I agree we are tolerant to a great extent, but it's not because we're "kunjoos" or we don't want to spend money. I think its just that we don't want to take the hassle of fighting for our rights because "the car is working fine, i can reach college/office on time,when it stalls, we'll see the general attitude being, who'll fight and till what level for a small niggle.we believe it's not worth the effort, time and money, that's the attitude that needs to change"
but the question is, HOW???
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Old 21st April 2010, 23:00   #50
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The Hit and Run Incident
I met with an accident,when a delivery van forced its way into a gap in the traffic ahead of me, taking my fender and bumper with him in the process (I almost ran my battery down honking as I was dragged along). When flagged down by a traffic cop, he pretended to slow down and then made a break for it, almost running down the cop in doing so. The cop told me to book a hit and run case at the police station. (He offered no help, in fact he seemed disappointed that I had taken down the details of the offender). The duty cop refused to file an FIR: he insisted I take an “acknowledgement” for claiming insurance purposes. Either that or park my vehicle for an indefinite period at the station. I called the insurance firm and they admitted that this was the “normal “ procedure. On thinking through, I realized:

The police get a good performance report (crime graph) and avoid work
The insurance company avoids work and swallows up my NCD
I lose my NCD but get my claim passed.


The Debit Card Theft Incident
My son left his ATM/Debit card in the ATM machine because it operated differently from his usual machine (different bank ATM). The long queue moved up and the next user stole his card. He misused the card to the tune of 5 figures. When we reported the crime to the police they refused to register the FIR, offering instead to track down the offender by giving me a guide to the procedure THEY followed. I applied for the cctv footage of the ATM booth at my own cost and am still waiting for the confidentiality protection procedures to be gone through for the task. (Many peoples’ faces are recorded for the given time period).

Here:

The police avoid a bad performance report as well as extra work
The bank avoids appearing in court with evidence
I end up doing all the work amd paying all the fees, but get my money back.

I’m so glad that the concerned people have taken Skoda and Tata to court, because:

The country’s laws get a bad performance report .
The courts are given a work out and get a bad performance report
The firms get a bad performance report

Remember, all these reports affect how much business is done in the country. which hurts ALL the offenders. This in turn forces all the offenders to reform themselves. I wish I had as much guts as those guys who sued, instead of selfishly taking as small a hit as possible.

Maybe I had the option of salvaging a substantial part of my loss. But in the long term, I also lose. The offenders don't get affected. Which is the only thing that will make them change.

Last edited by proton : 21st April 2010 at 23:03. Reason: spelling
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Old 21st April 2010, 23:16   #51
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Buying a car in India is an emotional thing ...

A Car here is not a product / white good. Its a part of your family... And nobody critisizes family members in public ... do they...


For e.g.

1) I asked a fellow i20 owner I met last week how his A/c was... his answer... first class!! Thats just lying.

2) My uncle has an Indica Vista. The interior groans and moans in every bump. The noises come and go. The service centre does nothing against his complaints. But if you ask him how his car is doing, he is extremely satisfied.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 00:28   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonGekko
The original post really made me laugh out loud.
I think one of the reasons is that the cars made for the indian market have to be
a) cheap to buy
b) cheap to run
Hmm. What is so funny about the original post ?
And what is so funny about being "cheap to run" ? It is not limited to the A/B/C/D segments. Check out the BMWs and Benzes - most of the sales is for the diesel models. Cheaper to run, being the answer.

Not sure why, but people seem to think that being FE or worrying about FE is a bad thing. What is wrong in that ? The E in FE stands for Efficiency and from when did Efficiency become a bad thing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonGekko
Thats pretty much. Now, if you try adding something like performance into the equation, while keeping others constants, what you get is somewhat of a "Jugaad".
So, performance is something you should get only when you plonk down 25 big ones or more ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonGekko
Customer thinks that he is spending 5 lakh so he's entitled to the world, but that is simply not how it is. You get what you pay.
No one is talking about the world here. At 5 lakhs, I am not asking for sun/moon roof or 6 airbags or 150bhp. All I am asking is my car should be reliable, without any niggles. Is that asking too much ? We got that by paying just 59K in 1985 on a new but hand-me-down Jap hatch. I don't see any reason why it can't be possible 25 years down the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonGekko
On the other hand, it is really quite baffling how such things can happen in premium cars like brand new benzes and superbs. Thats just a plain and simple quality issue.
Ha, so when it happens to the Superbs and Benzes, it is baffling and a quality issue. But when you come down the food-chain, it is just something you have to live with. Nice logic, man.

A car is a car is a car. The bells and whistles can vary based on the segment and price paid, but any car has to be reliable and without silly issues for the price paid. As simple as that.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 22nd April 2010 at 00:30.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 00:38   #53
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Yes the Average Indian car Buyer is Tolerant and to an extent Ignorant.
The sales figures of Tata is testimony to this fact.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 02:50   #54
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Guys, lets break the issues into two types here.
1) Niggles
2) "Showstoppers" and life threatening issues

Minor niggles in a car <5lacs have to be lived with in my opinion. Like rattles, etc. This is because manufacturers have to cut corners in order to make their cars cheaper, good looking, reliable, efficient, powerful and what not.

But issues like catching fire, stopping in the middle of the road are unacceptable for any car at any price point.

People who compare rattles and catching fire at the same priority and severity are too fanatic about a certain brands or products.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 06:56   #55
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I would not say that average buyer in India is that tolerant, as we have it in our blood get the best VFM which INCLUDES reliability and long lasting performance. Average buyer goes for such purchases. One can site examples from watches to furnitures to washing machines to refrigerators etc.

We shout at the IFB/Videocon/Samsung call center when our washing machines/refrigerators go wrong and also get it fixed. Its also a fact that we buy these items expecting they will run long and we dont pay premium for such items.

When it comes to cars, we are not tolerant, but I think we go soft. The difference being, most think we are not in a position to bargain and fight, when we see something damaging happening to the core reliability of the automobile. Another point is that automobiles still have a long way to go before they become a commodity in India (which I think will take a long long time, though it has started with Nano/Alto etc).

That is when we will see this change happening.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 08:20   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
.....
A Car here is not a product / white good. Its a part of your family... And nobody critisizes family members in public ... do they...

.....
Hehe, Abhi, I quite like this new way of looking at the car ownership experience! Much truth to it!
I used to wonder why people are soooo reluctant to admit deficiencies in their cars or just plain disappointment in some cases!
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Old 22nd April 2010, 10:45   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar
Minor niggles in a car <5lacs have to be lived with in my opinion. Like rattles, etc. This is because manufacturers have to cut corners in order to make their cars cheaper, good looking, reliable, efficient, powerful and what not.
@blue_pulsar, while I do accept that the defect severity level differs for a breakdown vs a rattle, I don't think rattles are acceptable in any car, let alone a 5lakh car.

Rattles point to quality issues with fitment, material used, QA/QC etc. I don't think many of us here would like to live with rattles in their cars be it a 2.5L M800 or a 30L Merc, though it is not a serious issue like car catching fire or breaking down.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 11:33   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
Yes the Average Indian car Buyer is Tolerant and to an extent Ignorant.

+1. We have to let go of the Swalpa Adjust Maadi (Lets adjust a little) attitude and make sure that even minor issues are rectified to the fullest.
When we start taking things seriously and all others will fall in place.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 11:40   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Hmm. What is so funny about the original post ?
And what is so funny about being "cheap to run" ? It is not limited to the A/B/C/D segments. Check out the BMWs and Benzes - most of the sales is for the diesel models. Cheaper to run, being the answer.

Not sure why, but people seem to think that being FE or worrying about FE is a bad thing. What is wrong in that ? The E in FE stands for Efficiency and from when did Efficiency become a bad thing ?

So, performance is something you should get only when you plonk down 25 big ones or more ?

No one is talking about the world here. At 5 lakhs, I am not asking for sun/moon roof or 6 airbags or 150bhp. All I am asking is my car should be reliable, without any niggles. Is that asking too much ? We got that by paying just 59K in 1985 on a new but hand-me-down Jap hatch. I don't see any reason why it can't be possible 25 years down the line.

Ha, so when it happens to the Superbs and Benzes, it is baffling and a quality issue. But when you come down the food-chain, it is just something you have to live with. Nice logic, man.

A car is a car is a car. The bells and whistles can vary based on the segment and price paid, but any car has to be reliable and without silly issues for the price paid. As simple as that.
Why are you so hurt. Get over it dude.

Lets make some things clear;

Define relaible...because it leaves a lot of scope for definition. Since you seem to be the authority on this issue..please do.

What you get is what you pay. All cars are not built the same. End of discussion here.

I think you have a well-maintained baleno, hence you are seeing things differently as these cars are great value for money in all aspects. Buddy, you got a deal. Not everyone does, not everyone can.

Yes, it is a pretty nice logic. No one is stupid enough to assume that you'd get the same quality in a $5000 car and a $50000 car, so lets not even go there.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 11:50   #60
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Gordon, thanks for your posts. You have proved what I said. Indian car buyer is too thankful to get a car with a boot for 5 lakhs. So the consumer believes that since price is so good, problems and niggles can be ignored. User believes that because he has not spent 10L but 5L, he is entitled to poor service and quality.
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