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Old 12th April 2009, 11:52   #541
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if I remember correctly, it's in one of the links Harish posted somewhere.
the ex-MD had played a major role in incorporating Vashishta Wahan, presenting it as an Indian representative of VW AG - which it was not - and having the Govt of AP shell out money to Vashishta Wahan ensuing in a big scam.

PS: I am posting this off the top of my head. anybody is free to correct me if Im wrong or simply talking nonsense.

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O.T. (slightly): Does anyone here know the circumstances in which the ex-MD of Skoda India (now a partner with the Nummer-eins people), left Skoda?
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Old 12th April 2009, 12:12   #542
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Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
The case is pending. An appeal was filed against an interim order. So, as of now, nobody has 'won' the case.
Thats right, the case is still open.

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O.T. (slightly): Does anyone here know the circumstances in which the ex-MD of Skoda India (now a partner with the Nummer-eins people), left Skoda?

Cheers,
Brilliant point. Tried finding out. No conclusive info yet.

Ravveendrra, you have always come out with informative, non-biased views and relevant queries here. I always look forward to your post.



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Originally Posted by blacmagic View Post
if I remember correctly, it's in one of the links Harish posted somewhere.
the ex-MD had played a major role in incorporating Vashishta Wahan, presenting it as an Indian representative of VW AG - which it was not - and having the Govt of AP shell out money to Vashishta Wahan ensuing in a big scam.

PS: I am posting this off the top of my head. anybody is free to correct me if Im wrong or simply talking nonsense.
blac - I do not think that is right. I don't remember having read any mention of his association with Vashishta Wahani. Probably, his termination and the Vashishta Wahini issue was in the same newspaper report.
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Old 12th April 2009, 14:05   #543
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went back to the link Harish originally posted. looks like it was Helmut Schuster and not the ex-MD Imran Hassen who was part of the Vashishta Wahan scam. him along with state govt. minister B Satyanarayana.
here's the link to the article about Imran Hassen quitting: Imran Hassen quits Volkswagen
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Old 12th April 2009, 15:59   #544
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Originally Posted by blacmagic View Post
went back to the link Harish originally posted. looks like it was Helmut Schuster and not the ex-MD Imran Hassen who was part of the Vashishta Wahan scam. him along with state govt. minister B Satyanarayana.
here's the link to the article about Imran Hassen quitting: Imran Hassen quits Volkswagen

Thanks for the link @ blacmagic.

The jury is still out on the Vashista Wahan scam. One view is that Helmut scammed the A.P. Govt. the other is that some A.P. guys scammed VW and the A.P. tax-payers but all that is O.T. here.


So some part of my memory still functions ok. Imran Hassen left Skoda 'under a cloud' a politically correct phrase (but inappropriate in the Indian summer when any wisp of a cloud is welcome!) It is basically PRspeak for - 'was shown the door' or more colourfully 'bunged out on his backside' or as we Indians put it - 'kicked out'.


Keeping in mind that Imran was the top dog in Skoda and not forgetting that he joined hands with a crooked dealer after his exit. I cannot but wonder how many bad apples he introduced into the basket. It will take time and meticulous work to 'neutralise' all the crooked elements that would have crept into the system.


Before there are cries of 'VW group is a of bunch scam-tainted crooks' (refer conversion of boardroom into broadroom), let me hasten to add that VW group has not merely re-located the tainted personnel (so that they are out of the public eye) but has got rid of them. If I remember correctly, there are cases filed in Germany against tainted top managers. So let us give the devil his due - VW group seems to be trying to clean up its act.


Imagine you and I owned a business, we are too busy with our lives to run the business, so we appoint a MD to run the business, (this is true of most large corporations). The MD is a greedy crook, he appoints his own henchmen as directors, managers, accountants etc. to carry out his nefarious activities. You and I learn that he has his hand in the till. The easy part is getting rid of the MD and Directors as they serve at the pleasure of the owners. The other employees have legal protection against improper termination and, will be far more difficult to get rid of. You and I as businessmen will look to the future and keep working at getting our business back in shape. The customers and 'probables' will be scared off by our history. It is a long slow grind where you and I will have to claw our way back up the slippery slope down which our 'trusted' MD has pushed us.


Scams and scandals hit everyone - governments, political parties, NGOs and businesses. The repercussions are deep-rooted and huge. The organisation will take take time to recover. If the scam hit organisation seems to be taking steps to set things right and is not intrinsically a shell company, a fraud or a crooked venture, it is only humane that it be given a chance to redeem itself. We must distinguish between a crooked business (eg. an airline set up by a frontman solely to carry drugs) and a legitimate business that is/was being run badly by its managers (eg. a legitimate airline whose managers are using its planes to carry drugs).

Take the broader facts here into consideration. A dealer is crooked. A MD is shown the door. The dealer is shown the door. The ex-MD and ex-dealer become partners! LOL is it any wonder that Skoda is trying to commit suicide by taking the help of 'Skoda Corporate'. To be fair (and serious) again, someone was candid enough to confess to Harish that there is a lot of gandagi or keechad - courtesy the ex-MD?

GTO and Navin have already stated that it is in nobody's interest to run Skoda into the ground. By doing so, they have set us on the path of becoming enlightened consumers who can help Skoda clean their backyard. It is time to follow. We can help by sending them constant feedback particularly on bad or crooked practices by dealers and employees. Of course, this does not mean that they should not be hauled over coals for bad products or service. Let the fight continue but, as Thad has rightly pointed out let us use our 'common-sense' .


Cheers,

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Old 12th April 2009, 16:19   #545
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Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
We can help by sending them constant feedback particularly on bad or crooked practices by dealers and employees.
And what do you think would be Skoda's response to that? All they would say is, "This is not our responsiblity!" No one wants Skoda to leave India but it sure seems like they are hell bent on doing so.

The problem here is that Skoda believes that there is nothing wrong with either their company, their products and their dealers. The first step to improving anything is to recognise that a particular area is an area of concern. Skoda believes it's perfect.

I don't want to bring in any other car-maker in here but look where the correct attitude is taking Fiat with it's Linea. They acknowledged that after sales service is a problem area with them and are making efforts to solve that issue. Most car buyers want to buy a car that gives them maximum VFM. Most would happily overlook your past blunders (Uno, Palio) if you say "Sorry guys. We know we goofed up in the past but we promise not to disappoint you this time."

Indian car buyers have given the thumbs up to both the Octavia and Laura. If Skoda's improves it's after sales by even 50% they can easily take the fight to the Civic and Altis.
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Old 12th April 2009, 22:30   #546
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And what do you think would be Skoda's response to that? All they would say is, "This is not our responsiblity!" No one wants Skoda to leave India but it sure seems like they are hell bent on doing so.

The problem here is that Skoda believes that there is nothing wrong with either their company, their products and their dealers. The first step to improving anything is to recognise that a particular area is an area of concern. Skoda believes it's perfect.

I don't want to bring in any other car-maker in here but look where the correct attitude is taking Fiat with it's Linea. They acknowledged that after sales service is a problem area with them and are making efforts to solve that issue. Most car buyers want to buy a car that gives them maximum VFM. Most would happily overlook your past blunders (Uno, Palio) if you say "Sorry guys. We know we goofed up in the past but we promise not to disappoint you this time."

Indian car buyers have given the thumbs up to both the Octavia and Laura. If Skoda's improves it's after sales by even 50% they can easily take the fight to the Civic and Altis.
There are problems and Skoda is aware of it. They might not have stated so in public, they have admitted it to me verbally in private. As I have said before, the dealers are whining about it. As part of their revamp, Skoda now requires every service invoice and job-card to be sent to them. This is tallied with the spare part inventory/indents of the dealer. If nothing else, it shows that they are trying.

Yes, their communications leave a lot to be desired, particularly in style and language. Having read the various communications from Skoda India, extracted and posted on the forum. I have a sneaking feeling that Skoda is trying to say something other than what they seem to be saying. They seem to be wanting to say - "We have instructed our dealer to deal with this and shall be overseeing it. Please note that no legal liability can be fastened on us for the goof-up by the dealer." Ideally the second sentance should be in 6 point at the bottom or reverse of the letter. Unfortunately, some people will read the communications to mean "We make cars and sell them. Our responsibility ceases once the car crosses the factory gate." Here, I refer to their letters and not their pleadings in court.

Pleadings in court are specialised documents which are drafted using a different yard stick altogether. In their pleadings in court they will have to start with "I did not make or sell the car. I do not know the customer. I do not know the dealer. ................" That is the nature of the beast called pleadings, that is why they are best left to the Judges and lawyers, who are adept at seperating the grain from the chaff.

Of course, this does not explain Skoda's continuing love-affair with TAFE where a customer's signature was forged. TAFE is an ancient organisation and part of a multi activity group. So, I am presuming (hoping) that TAFE has weeded out the erring employees and strengthened their systems and internal processes to the satisfaction of Skoda.

Regarding the goons appointed to keep customers away from the shop-floor. I have not seen them. I was all over each of the 4 floors of the local dealer's workshop and most guys were quite happy to see me and chat with me. They also did not mind me walking around and under a few vehicles and checking them out. I guess if one dealer has formed a goon squad, you should complain to the local police as well as Skoda. Please do note that there are laws about work place safety which prohibit unauthorised (unaccompanied & unsupervised) persons entering shopfloors where equipment is being used (yes a car workshop will qualify courtesy the hydraulic lifts and pneumatic tools). The insurance companies too, try to wriggle out of paying the workmens compensation if any unauthorised person was on the shop floor at the time of an accident. The most basic concern would of course be - the customer's safety. Shop floors or automobile workshops are not safe places for the un-initiated. No one wants to see a thread entitled "___________ dealer tried to kill/maim me by dropping an engine / car on me!"

If Skoda sails out of India, they will be doing so on their own steam (or lack of it). If that happens, consumers in India will be the ultimate losers.

Cheers,
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Old 13th April 2009, 02:53   #547
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Raveendra, that second sentence should be nowhere. absolutely nowhere.
the dealer and the service center operates with the company's blessing.
the company itself assures people that they will receive the best possible service at the authorized service center. the company even goes so far as to say that if you get so much as a bolt opened outside a service center, you WILL lose your warranty and be ostracized - irrespective of how good the other guy is.
so how can a company wash its hands off all responsibility - 6 pt or invisible ink - when the same endorsed service center makes mischief?

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Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
They seem to be wanting to say - "We have instructed our dealer to deal with this and shall be overseeing it. Please note that no legal liability can be fastened on us for the goof-up by the dealer." Ideally the second sentance should be in 6 point at the bottom or reverse of the letter.
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Old 13th April 2009, 10:15   #548
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Furthermore, by keeping the spares and service documentation purely within the confines of dealerships the company and its dealer/service network are forcinf the customer (illegally in my view) to use their network.

Also, remember in smaller cities there is normally only one dealer/service outlet so you are stuck. I know in one north western city of UP people were no fed up by the dealer (typical bill on Santro for the first service after warranty was reportedly Rs.30,000+) that it severely impacted sales. Then a second dealership came up, so I guess things should have improved. Also, in smaller cities we do not have the option of competent independents either.

Maybe this Skoda mess should be used by some of our colleagues as a lever to break up the monopolistec practice of the company monopoly in service and repairs. I am sure the MRTPC will not look kindly at this. Spares and service documentation MUST be avaliable and that too at reasonable cost.
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Old 13th April 2009, 10:37   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post



So some part of my memory still functions ok. Imran Hassen left Skoda 'under a cloud' a politically correct phrase (but inappropriate in the Indian summer when any wisp of a cloud is welcome!) It is basically PRspeak for - 'was shown the door' or more colourfully 'bunged out on his backside' or as we Indians put it - 'kicked out'.

So let us give the devil his due - VW group seems to be trying to clean up its act.

Imagine you and I owned a business, we are too busy with our lives to run the business, so we appoint a MD to run the business, (this is true of most large corporations). The MD is a greedy crook, he appoints his own henchmen as directors, managers, accountants etc. to carry out his nefarious activities. You and I learn that he has his hand in the till. The easy part is getting rid of the MD and Directors as they serve at the pleasure of the owners. The other employees have legal protection against improper termination and, will be far more difficult to get rid of. You and I as businessmen will look to the future and keep working at getting our business back in shape. The customers and 'probables' will be scared off by our history. It is a long slow grind where you and I will have to claw our way back up the slippery slope down which our 'trusted' MD has pushed us.

Take the broader facts here into consideration. A dealer is crooked. A MD is shown the door. The dealer is shown the door. The ex-MD and ex-dealer become partners! LOL is it any wonder that Skoda is trying to commit suicide by taking the help of 'Skoda Corporate'. To be fair (and serious) again, someone was candid enough to confess to Harish that there is a lot of gandagi or keechad - courtesy the ex-MD?

GTO and Navin have already stated that it is in nobody's interest to run Skoda into the ground. By doing so, they have set us on the path of becoming enlightened consumers who can help Skoda clean their backyard. It is time to follow. We can help by sending them constant feedback particularly on bad or crooked practices by dealers and employees. Of course, this does not mean that they should not be hauled over coals for bad products or service. Let the fight continue but, as Thad has rightly pointed out let us use our 'common-sense' .


Cheers,
Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
And what do you think would be Skoda's response to that? All they would say is, "This is not our responsiblity!" No one wants Skoda to leave India but it sure seems like they are hell bent on doing so.

The problem here is that Skoda believes that there is nothing wrong with either their company, their products and their dealers. The first step to improving anything is to recognise that a particular area is an area of concern. Skoda believes it's perfect.

I don't want to bring in any other car-maker in here but look where the correct attitude is taking Fiat with it's Linea. They acknowledged that after sales service is a problem area with them and are making efforts to solve that issue. Most car buyers want to buy a car that gives them maximum VFM. Most would happily overlook your past blunders (Uno, Palio) if you say "Sorry guys. We know we goofed up in the past but we promise not to disappoint you this time."

Indian car buyers have given the thumbs up to both the Octavia and Laura. If Skoda's improves it's after sales by even 50% they can easily take the fight to the Civic and Altis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
There are problems and Skoda is aware of it. They might not have stated so in public, they have admitted it to me verbally in private. As I have said before, the dealers are whining about it. As part of their revamp, Skoda now requires every service invoice and job-card to be sent to them. This is tallied with the spare part inventory/indents of the dealer. If nothing else, it shows that they are trying.

Yes, their communications leave a lot to be desired, particularly in style and language. Having read the various communications from Skoda India, extracted and posted on the forum. I have a sneaking feeling that Skoda is trying to say something other than what they seem to be saying. They seem to be wanting to say - "We have instructed our dealer to deal with this and shall be overseeing it. Please note that no legal liability can be fastened on us for the goof-up by the dealer." Ideally the second sentance should be in 6 point at the bottom or reverse of the letter. Unfortunately, some people will read the communications to mean "We make cars and sell them. Our responsibility ceases once the car crosses the factory gate." Here, I refer to their letters and not their pleadings in court.

Pleadings in court are specialised documents which are drafted using a different yard stick altogether. In their pleadings in court they will have to start with "I did not make or sell the car. I do not know the customer. I do not know the dealer. ................" That is the nature of the beast called pleadings, that is why they are best left to the Judges and lawyers, who are adept at seperating the grain from the chaff.

Of course, this does not explain Skoda's continuing love-affair with TAFE where a customer's signature was forged. TAFE is an ancient organisation and part of a multi activity group. So, I am presuming (hoping) that TAFE has weeded out the erring employees and strengthened their systems and internal processes to the satisfaction of Skoda.

Regarding the goons appointed to keep customers away from the shop-floor. I have not seen them. I was all over each of the 4 floors of the local dealer's workshop and most guys were quite happy to see me and chat with me. They also did not mind me walking around and under a few vehicles and checking them out. I guess if one dealer has formed a goon squad, you should complain to the local police as well as Skoda. Please do note that there are laws about work place safety which prohibit unauthorised (unaccompanied & unsupervised) persons entering shopfloors where equipment is being used (yes a car workshop will qualify courtesy the hydraulic lifts and pneumatic tools). The insurance companies too, try to wriggle out of paying the workmens compensation if any unauthorised person was on the shop floor at the time of an accident. The most basic concern would of course be - the customer's safety. Shop floors or automobile workshops are not safe places for the un-initiated. No one wants to see a thread entitled "___________ dealer tried to kill/maim me by dropping an engine / car on me!"

If Skoda sails out of India, they will be doing so on their own steam (or lack of it). If that happens, consumers in India will be the ultimate losers.

Cheers,
I guess Skoda and all other manufacturers as well, do need to have a technically correct statement that means that " dealer goof ups are not their responsibility" in fine print.

I also feal as mentioned by Ravveendrra that Skoda seems to have poor PR and their intent is getting miscommunicated. That said, very few (except TATA - which spoke about quality issues with their Twin Cab tata mobile and Service quality issues) actually are prepared to admit in open that they do have a service issue. I guess TATA already had nothing more to loose in terms of image and they were able to be candid about it. I case of Fiat too they seem to be working hard on the Service and Quality issues, but have not seen an offical statement to that effect.

If we knew someone who actually works at Skoda we would maybe have been informed informally that they are going to focus on Dealer & Quality over the next year.) removal of certain employees and a dealer seems to be a step in that direction, but it may be a bit too overboard to expect them to make an offical admission to their faults.

Asking for job cards / invoices to reach them also seems to be a step in that direction.
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Old 13th April 2009, 11:07   #550
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no they should not. and certainly not in fine print. if they need to have that statement, it should be in big bold letters so that customers dont go to dealers with the false sense of assurance provided by the company's backing.
if you don't want to take responsibility for the dealership's actions, you SHOULD NOT endorse them in any way whatsoever, let alone accept money from them.
if a company is not responsible for stuff you get done at a non-authorized service center, and is not responsible for stuff you get done at an authorized service center, can I know what exactly a company is responsible for?

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I guess Skoda and all other manufacturers as well, do need to have a technically correct statement that means that " dealer goof ups are not their responsibility" in fine print.
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Old 13th April 2009, 11:46   #551
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Furthermore, by keeping the spares and service documentation purely within the confines of dealerships the company and its dealer/service network are forcinf the customer (illegally in my view) to use their network.

Also, in smaller cities we do not have the option of competent independents either.

Maybe this Skoda mess should be used by some of our colleagues as a lever to break up the monopolistec practice of the company monopoly in service and repairs. I am sure the MRTPC will not look kindly at this. Spares and service documentation MUST be avaliable and that too at reasonable cost.
I have been fuming at the new practice of "No counter sales of spares" for years now. Almost every manufacturer is resorting to this shady practice now.

This impacts my choice of mechanic. It affects the livelihood of independent mechanics(workshops). I remember when I had to arm-twist the GM dealer into giving me spares for my Corsa. I bluntly had to tell them that their workshop was incompetent.

There are several parts that I can fix myself - why should I use the services of a workshop for changing wiper blades?

I think the MRTPC is a good idea. The Indian consumer is best served by an open market for spare parts.

Cheers,
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Old 13th April 2009, 12:13   #552
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I Agree with Blacmagic. manufacturers can't wash off their hands when Dealer goofs up, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Dealers of expensive consumer durable items are extended arm of manufacturers and not an appendage that you cut whenever you feel like. That is the important reason why maruti is selling like hot cakes even though their product is no different from other car manufacturers' in India.
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Old 13th April 2009, 12:19   #553
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Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
I have been fuming at the new practice of "No counter sales of spares" for years now. Almost every manufacturer is resorting to this shady practice now.

This impacts my choice of mechanic. It affects the livelihood of independent mechanics(workshops). I remember when I had to arm-twist the GM dealer into giving me spares for my Corsa. I bluntly had to tell them that their workshop was incompetent.

There are several parts that I can fix myself - why should I use the services of a workshop for changing wiper blades?

I think the MRTPC is a good idea. The Indian consumer is best served by an open market for spare parts.

Cheers,
I fully agree. I have been ranting about this for quite some time. Now I hear Maruti has also joined the bandwagon, though the user base is so big they can only force customers to look for independent parts vendors - an annoyance. How about a cet of complaints to the MRTPC on this issue?
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Old 13th April 2009, 16:36   #554
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Great Harish,

I must say the kind of patience and spirit you have shown is commendable, not many people have that and thats the main reason why these companies have this kind of attitude towards Indian customers.

Because they know that the Indian consumer wouldn't do anything and they can take us for granted. But let me tell you because of your experience their are lot of people whom I know have changed their decision of buying a Skoda especially the New Skoda Superb.

I am really impressed with the way you have your facts and figures, HATS OFF TO YOU.

Since media has helped you a lot in this, why don't you get in touch with Autocar India, they would definitely publish your story and as it is a widely read auto magazine it would help in bringing out the story to the common man. I know a guy in Autocar India, his name is Ashish Masih, his email id is ashish@autocarindia.com, contact no#9818293850.

Cheers
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Old 13th April 2009, 17:41   #555
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For those who are complaining about manufacturers insisting that service should be done at dealer workshops.

This is google's rendering of a pdf file. The original pdf is at http://www.boschcarservice.co.uk/pdf/warranty.pdf


IMPORTANT INFORMATION

I am myself reading it.

I think this practise is unfair trade practise - you can deal with it under consumer law itself. See this link -

:: Ministry of Consumer Affairs, Food&Public Distribution :: Governmant of India

Search he page for "unfair".

Last edited by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR : 13th April 2009 at 17:48.
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