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View Poll Results: Should government of india make hybrid cars duty free
Yes 40 70.18%
No 10 17.54%
I don't care, I an't buying one 7 12.28%
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Old 27th March 2009, 14:53   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Well, to start with, hybrids are over-hyped. Nope, they aren't going to save the world. And yes, even though their emissions are lower, they still do pollute.

Why should hybrids be duty-free at all? If Honda can build a relatively low volume Accord out here, why not the Civic hybrid? You want to sell it here, you build it here. And if the govt. does waive off duties on hybrids, we'll have all sorts of manufacturers fitting small hybrid motors on their cars....ONLY to save on duty. Further, we'll have another problem where duty-free hybrids work out cheaper than building a non-hybrid locally and thus, no one will be setting up manufacturing / assembly operations in India at all. .


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Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
first of all they should give subsidiary to our very own Reva.
Well said GTO. Absolutely true. but Vinaydas is absolutely right. Reva must get some duty exemption.
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Old 27th March 2009, 15:03   #17
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Reva runs on electricity , by any way it does not use petrol/ diesel.
So i don't think it can be called as hybrid car.

Source
Hybrid vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A hybrid vehicle is a vehicle that uses two or more distinct power sources to move the vehicle.[1] The term most commonly refers to hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs), which combine an internal combustion engine and one or more electric motors

In maharshtra there is not enough electric power for normal day to day operations , how can they promote electric cars? ( In that case the load shedding has to be of 10-15+ hours)

But if we get true hybrid vehicle whose main power source is other than electric ( gasoline / solar/whatever ) like civic hybrid , somehow increase mileage of vehicle , then it will help.


As majority of indians have "mileage kya hai?" mentality , I am surprised to see lack of promotion for hybrid vehicles in india. Or May be , because they are not worth the hype :-)

Last edited by hrishig : 27th March 2009 at 15:04.
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Old 27th March 2009, 15:14   #18
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Ultimately you have to save / least damage the environment.

So, its reva or hybrid, doesn't matter.

If they are produced in India, Govt. should give tax benefit.
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Old 27th March 2009, 16:18   #19
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Originally Posted by hrishig View Post
Reva runs on electricity , by any way it does not use petrol/ diesel.
So i don't think it can be called as hybrid car.........
Yes, but an electric car is even better than a hybrid.

Also, this year (2009) new technology has been invented for batteries that are lighter and quick to charge. Such powerful batteries will be available to public very soon...in coming years.
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Old 27th March 2009, 16:34   #20
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Well, to start with, hybrids are over-hyped. Nope, they aren't going to save the world. And yes, even though their emissions are lower, they still do pollute.
.
I agree they do pollute but lesser than the conventional ones. Hybrids over-hyped or not, atleast are offering a solution to reduce oil consumption. This is better than having no hybrids at all. As the technology penetrates the market, it will become more viable (economically) in the coming years.

I remember reading somewhere that even with coal fired plants, the EVs are less polluting overall compared to the normal fuelled vehicles.
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Old 27th March 2009, 17:10   #21
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Originally Posted by aerohit View Post
Yes, but an electric car is even better than a hybrid.

Also, this year (2009) new technology has been invented for batteries that are lighter and quick to charge. Such powerful batteries will be available to public very soon...in coming years.
The point is we already don't have enough electricity, then how can we think of using electric cars ? ( We have to charge it first !) If we have adequate electric power then yes it definitely makes sense to think of electric car.

Imagine today if 50% of cars on indian road are electric cars, then

1) Everybody will charge their cars in the morning
2) Electric consumption is up. So , Load shedding hours will increase
3) To counteract , people will start using kerosine/ diesel / other crude based generators , just to produce electric energy. The condition of technologies for these generators used in India is very bad. So they will increase the pollution.

4) After all this , yes we have non polluting smooth running electric cars.

But is pollution reduced ? NO because of point 3.


Electric cars will only make sense in india when adequate electric energy is made using less polluted means ( Hydro/ solar / anything else ) .

But the Hybrid vechicle with good technologies ( read regenerative breaking, usage of electric motors at low speeds etc etc ) should come to india.

Last edited by hrishig : 27th March 2009 at 17:11.
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Old 27th March 2009, 18:56   #22
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Default Are we not like everybody in the world?

World over every country import Hybrids, why are we special? At present the hybrids are mostly manufactured in Japan(Thanks to Toyota & Honda) and as I said every country imports it.

Till the technology is widely accepted and all the parts suppliers become available it will not be feasible to manufacture Hybrids everywhere(especially not in India, Anybody heard of Li-ion Battery manufacturer from India?). Once these cars hit the main stream they will not be any costlier than the regular cars.

And another wrong perception I see here of hybrids are that they do not eliminate pollution or petrol usage. If you are looking at free energy we will not get them any where. The idea of hybrids is that they use the energy available much more efficiently. Most regenerative breaking systems can recover about 25-30% of energy from the moving car and If the engine gets switched off at low speeds we can save massive amount of fuel off idling and finally if some of the energy from the regenrative breaking is used for accelerating the car, then we save real fuel. A car of size of Civic if it is a full hybrid like the Prius can travel double the distance with the same fuel and its just a start. Up comming hybrids will only be cleaner. Its just a matter of time when the Amercan SUV's become more efficient than our Alto.

Last but not the least, out electrical load shedding are present only because our electricity boards are not able to meet the peak hour demand of power supply not at the night when nothing is practically running. Most coal & oil power stations run at full steam at all time and are used to the max capacity only at peak periods. Rest of the time they just pollute the air and we do not use the power. The idea of electric/Plugin Hybrid cars is to use electricity during that time. More over electricity in future can be generated from greener sources how can we make cars that run only on petrol/diesel greener.

Its up to us if we want to import fuel for ever(the quantity will just keep increasing year after year) or import these cars and actually reduce our fuel import(redirect some money of fuel import every year to save money and fuel) or keep cribbing that petrol price and usage is increasing. The government can provide a 10 year 'technology establishment' window where Hybrids come duty free. I am sure by then Indians will absorb Hybrids thanks to our fuel sipping nature. At the same time our government if they are really interested in improving our industry could encourage the companies by funding our own companies to develop Hybrid technologies, two wheeler manufacturers will be a great place to start. This could also put us ahead of the Chinese Industry 10 years down the line.

More over world over hybrid cars are maturing and are becoming main stream products, If every thing goes right we will see these technologies used today in 10 years from now when getting petrol will be tougher and we will be drooling that the European spec Car is much better than our own. Don't forget the last time when petrol almost reached 65 bucks. It will happen again when the world panics and may be tougher next time.

Last edited by arunmur : 27th March 2009 at 19:10.
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Old 27th March 2009, 22:28   #23
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Unless we run out of fossil fuels, no one is going to get serious about a hybrid other than making a style statement, lets get real.

We as a country can't provide electricity to homes, forget cars.

Also making electricity isn't a very clean operation on its own so it's still polluting.

Scientists need to research new ways to make electricity in the first place, as we can't burn fossil fuels that pollute the earth to run our cars and then say I am helping the planet, yay me.
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Old 28th March 2009, 02:21   #24
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Cool Do hybrid batteries need charging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Generation of electricity in India is not done by, lets say nuclear plants, but mainly by burning coal. So the plug-in hybrids are best averted for India.
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Originally Posted by Gagan.js View Post
We barely have decent roads, forget about infrastructure for these cars and electricity filling stations or whatever they are called.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrishig View Post
In maharshtra there is not enough electric power for normal day to day operations , how can they promote electric cars? ( In that case the load shedding has to be of 10-15+ hours)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrishig View Post
The point is we already don't have enough electricity, then how can we think of using electric cars ?
1) Everybody will charge their cars in the morning
2) Electric consumption is up. So , Load shedding hours will increase
3) To counteract , people will start using kerosine/ diesel / other crude based generators , just to produce electric energy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arunmur View Post
electrical load shedding are present only because our electricity boards are not able to meet the peak hour demand of power supply not at the night when nothing is practically running. The idea of electric/Plugin Hybrid cars is to use electricity during that time.
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Originally Posted by Gagan.js View Post
We as a country can't provide electricity to homes, forget cars.
The Civic Hybrid uses the Honda Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) technology in which the internal combustion engine is directly connected to and assisted by an electric motor. The system itself is compact and as a result of the electric motor being directly connected, a smaller battery and inverters can be used. During acceleration, the electric motor will assist the engine, providing greater fuel economy and lower emissions. As soon as the brakes are applied to slow the vehicle down, the engineís four cylinders are shut off allowing energy to be captured instead of wasted to re-charge the battery. When the car comes to a stop, the engine switches off, conserving energy. It re-starts automatically as soon as the brake pedal is released. One of the new features of Hondaís new Civic Hybrid system is that during low-speed cruising, it is possible for all 4 cylinders to be shut off and the Civic Hybrid to cruise on the electric motor alone.

The Civic Hybrid system has been developed so you donít have to do anything different. The battery is automatically charged when the car is slowing, travelling downhill or braking. The vehicle is able to re-capture energy which is normally lost through friction when braking and use this energy to re-charge the battery. Remember, when the battery is not in use itís being recharged by the electric motor. There is an override in the system that means you will always have at least 20% power in the battery. So youíll find thereís no need to plug your car in to charge at the end of the day.

( Source: Honda )
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Old 28th March 2009, 11:44   #25
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Sumit I said that about fully electric cars, which we will all be driving if the Earth does survive in a few decades. Fossil fuels will run out, and new ways of making CLEAN electricity are needed since you are still polluting by burning those coals and oils that provide India electricity, along with of course nuclear sources.
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Old 28th March 2009, 23:57   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeTee View Post
I agree they do pollute but lesser than the conventional ones.
The benefits (or the lack of) are debatable. However, for reasons stated in my previous post on this thread, I don't see why the GOI has to waive off duties on hybrids. If you want to sell them here, build 'em here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Sumit Bhatti View Post
The Civic Hybrid uses the Honda Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) technology
What the Civic Hybrid also uses is a technology that is obsolete compared to that of the Prius'. Drive both in bumper to bumper traffic to gauge for yourself. While the Civic will be constantly shutting / starting the engine (ANNOYING!), the Prius is capable of running upto a certain speed on electric power alone! No wonder the Prius outsells the Civic Hybrid in something like a 10:1 ratio.
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Old 4th September 2010, 09:49   #27
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Well very nicely said by GTO. The hybrids should not be made duty free as that would make the whole manufacturing setup in India so very un-attractive to manufacturers that they would start importing the vehicles using the Hybrid route.

However, there should be Tax advantages given on Hybrids manufactured in India, like what happens in UK, i.e. no road tax on such vehicles, or may be lower road tax, just in order to promote the Hybrids being manufactured and sold in India.

IMHO, whats happening to Reva in India is sheer injustice. I would say, GOI should provide some sort of subsidy on Reva atleast, it being a completely non-polluting vehicle.
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Old 4th September 2010, 10:02   #28
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Hybrids are not exactly green - and neither are electric cars like the Reva (though they score much better than hybrids). In the case of electric cars, the pollution source simply shifts from the tailpipe to the power generating plant (except when the power being generated is by green means - hydro, solar or wind energy).

A duty-free approach for electric cars and those running on alternate fuels like hydrogen would be the way forward.
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Old 4th September 2010, 10:09   #29
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India as a economy should not allow any duty free imports of the goods that can be easily manufactured locally

if it is allowed, then no investment will be made in India, no factories would be opened, no jobs for the local people.

more over the precious foreign exchange will go out this will put pressure on our exports to match else we will not get the needed foreign exchange for the imports.

typical example here is mobil phones, no or low import duties are giving boost to china made phones here. China made phones sell 3M units+ per month in India, a lost opportunities for the revenues, profits, investments, jobs, etc
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Old 4th September 2010, 11:53   #30
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Default The low down on Hybrids

Wow! This is a first...I don't see a single bit of accurate information in this thread!

Fact - Hybrids like the new Prius are extremely energy efficient. Think about it. More efficiency than a 2 cyl Nano with Camry like space, comfort, safety, refinement and performance

Fact -Full electric cars available to Indians are next to nil. We have the Reva, a seriously compromised indigenous effort. Even their newest iteration called the Reva-i is hardly comparable to the newest crop of EVs on sale elsewhere. Till their new cars roll in, that leaves environmentalists and penny pinchers with CNG fueled cars only

Fact - Indian automotive component suppliers will NEVER be able to manufacture full hybrid components to the quality levels demanded by the Japanese. NEVER. Not even the Americans can. More than 90% of all hybrid components are still manufactured in Japan, despite Hybrids being on the road for more than a decade. Forget about local manufacturing in the short term. Perhaps local assembly someday though

Fact - Newest generation electric vehicles like the Chevrolet Volt, Mitsubishi MIEV, Subaru R1e, the Aptera etc. have all only just been made available to focus consumer markets in a lease/ limited purchase model. Till they are available on a larger scale (even the most optimistic analyst won't hint at a period of less than 8-10 years. Now think about the additional environmental, demographic and usage testing that India will need and you will begin to see the real picture), Hybrids are the only compromise free middle ground. As time progresses, the ICE(Internal Combustion Engine) will gradually shift from being the primary propulsion mechanism to being an auxiliary power source.

Fact - The achilles heal for all electric vehicles has always been their energy storage i.e. the battery. All the way back in 1996, General Motor's EV1 was initially launched with Lead Acid batteries, promising a range no more than 80 miles. No one liked the thought of being stranded without power (a phenomenon now called Range anxiety), so GM launched the car with Nickel Metal Hydride cells - cutting edge technology at the time. The range was boosted to 120 miles as was performance. Think about it...a car that had Corvette beating acceleration without any of the fuel costs and emissions. I guess the idea was a decade ahead of its time. (The EV1 program was cancelled and all the cars destroyed. Fast forward a decade and GM has admitted to the cancellation of the program as being one of its costliest errors in the history of the company). Things haven't changed much. Lithium Ion batteries seem to be the rage now but Lithium supplies seem to be choking supply. Add the fact that most of the world's lithium is found in China and you've got an interesting political scenario (remember, most of the crude oil comes from the Mid East)


I guess I've rambled on quite enough. I don't see Indians having many options for EVs anytime soon. That leaves cars like the Prius, Civic Hybrid etc. as the only remaining options. Not bad, considering that Hybrids are most efficient in stop- start traffic. (CNG cars offer reduced ownership costs and emissions and it really is encouraging to see Maruti commencing factory CNG installations)

I've spoken to a couple folks in the Indian Customs dept. and they confess that most of the folks there don't even know what a Hybrid is, let alone the benefits that they bring to the table. They remain skeptical of the automotive giants trying to create a loophole by which they can sneak premium cars in at reduced costs. A no win situation indeed.

In the end, its the consumers wallets that will continue to get lighter and their lungs that will continue to get heavier with pollutants

Last edited by Screwdriva : 4th September 2010 at 12:00.
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