Micro Hybrids? - Team-BHP

arunmur · 29th March 2009, 12:10

Hi All,
Posting after a real long time. Mahindra has started to offer a Micro-Hybrid/Start-Stop kit akin to ones found in Mercs and BMWs(here) in their top of the Line VLX and Tata has been talking about Micro-Hybrid on the Nano and other cars in their line up.

According to sources, the Start-Stop kit on the Scorpio only costs about 3.5K extra to build.

My perceptions are that Micro-Hybrid will eliminate the existing starter motor with a More powerful Belt driven motor-alternator(instead of the alternator), they would need an upsized battery(to run the accesories) and would replace the AC Fan/Radiotor with a mechanism similar to Home AC's(one motor running the fan as well as the Compressors). Most other hardware required for this kind of hybrid is already present in the cars(like clutch depresssion sensors and In-gear sensor). Ofcourse this would require rewiring. Is there some thing i missed?

Since we already pay extra for BS-III systems(in some cars) for cars sold in Cities, why not make this system compulsory too? After all we do idle the car about 60% of our journey(in Cities). When will we start seeing Start-Stop system on every model as a standard(not optional)?

Also, Is there any one out there owing the Micro-Hybrid version of the Scorpio? Any inputs on the same?

GTO · 29th March 2009, 16:10

There is nothing *hybrid* about the Mahindra Scorpio, they are only abusing the term. An engine start - stop system does not a hybrid make. Else every taxi on the roads will qualify for the title of a manual-hybrid (manual because taxi drivers follow the same practice).

Quote:

My perceptions are that Micro-Hybrid will eliminate the existing starter motor with a More powerful Belt driven motor-alternator(instead of the alternator), they would need an upsized battery(to run the accesories) and would replace the AC Fan/Radiotor with a mechanism similar to Home AC's(one motor running the fan as well as the Compressors). Most other hardware required for this kind of hybrid is already present in the cars(like clutch depresssion sensors and In-gear sensor). Ofcourse this would require rewiring. Is there some thing i missed?

AFAIK, Mahindra's stop / start system only has a stronger starter and more powerful battery.

Quote:

Since we already pay extra for BS-III systems(in some cars) for cars sold in Cities, why not make this system compulsory too?

How about because not everyone wants it? I can only imagine how ANNOYING this system will be in stop-go traffic.

SS-Traveller · 29th March 2009, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by arunmur

Micro-Hybrid will eliminate the existing starter motor with a More powerful Belt driven motor-alternator(instead of the alternator), they would need an upsized battery(to run the accesories) and would replace the AC Fan/Radiotor with a mechanism similar to Home AC's(one motor running the fan as well as the Compressors).

Not so. AFAIK, the so-called Micro Hybrid system by Mahindra only cuts out the engine if it idles for 10 seconds on neutral, and restarts it when the clutch is depressed to engage a gear. The alternator does not continue to work as a motor drawing power from the battery, and the AC compressor does not keep running (albeit the cabin blower does). There is also a selector switch on the dash to allow the driver to turn off/turn on the Micro Hybrid system.

I wouldn't use such a system in stop-start traffic/in summers, because it could get irritating, and I wouldn't do without my AC in 45*C in Delhi when stopped at a traffic light, and fuel consumption be damned. That said, the Micro Hybrid system is only being offered with Mahindra's BS-IV Scorpio, and I'd prefer to buy a BS-IV vehicle rather than BS-III.

Volt · 29th March 2009, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

There is nothing *hybrid* about the Mahindra Scorpio, they are only abusing the term. An engine start - stop system does not a hybrid make.

+1 to that. Its just a beefed up starter motor/ alternator combination. There is no electric motor in the drive train, so it cannot qualify as an hybrid, micro or otherwise.

Having said this, if it does result in some fuel savings, it might be worth the extra 3.5K or so, provided its not very irritating in real life conditions. Leaving the hybrid hype aside, Mahindra need to be lauded for coming up with this device.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arunmur

would replace the AC Fan/Radiotor with a mechanism similar to Home AC's(one motor running the fan as well as the Compressors). ?

The home ACs have different motors for the fan and the compressor (this one is hermetically sealed) and it would have to be the same for car ACs.

arunmur · 29th March 2009, 17:26

Ok, Thanks for the insights as to how it is implemented.

Only thing i see missing is the AC compressor running from electric power, which means a much bigger battery.

If the AC works too, I guess its not that annoying?

That said, here is the Micro-Hybrid from Smart.

YouTube - Smart Fortwo Micro Hybrid Drive (english)

Another possible more 'Intelligient' solution could be to store the compressed A/C gas in a small tank(near the pressure regulator valve) to release while the Compressor cannot be run(cutting cost on bigger battery, alternator and many mechanical components). The compressor and the alternator can be made like in BMWs to run full while the car is decelerating.

Throttler · 30th March 2009, 22:32

I came across a Micro hybrid Scorpio. The system used is very simple. it has a normal starter motor with enhanced bushing for increased cycle of operation and a battery with increased AH. Other than that there is a Electronic unit that switched off and on as per its algorithm. It has sensors to sense clutch engagement ,neutral position, vehicle speed engine RPM etc.

The engine switches off completely so there is no chance that your AC would work.

This feature is fairly useful in city conditions. Its ability to reduce pollution depends on the cycle of operation i.e. the frequency of switch on / off.

"Hybrid" is something which uses more than one sources of energy. Like a Engine(Fuel)/Motor(Battery) OR Engine(Fuel)/Motor(Fuel Cell). "Micro-Hybrid" is definitely not a HYBRID.

hrishig · 31st March 2009, 11:50

We should thank mahindra for at least providing the option. Unless it is used and tested in INDIA , how can we decide if is useful or not?

The regenerative breaking is one more thing that should be provided on Indian road.

If these technologies are good then they can become next must have on all the Indian cars, If they are not , they will die. As simple as that :-)

But for this to happen they should be first offered on indian road with indian price ( Not like price for AIRBags we are paying in india)

29th March 2009, 12:10	#1 (permalink)
arunmur BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 151	Micro Hybrids? Hi All, Posting after a real long time. Mahindra has started to offer a Micro-Hybrid/Start-Stop kit akin to ones found in Mercs and BMWs(here) in their top of the Line VLX and Tata has been talking about Micro-Hybrid on the Nano and other cars in their line up. According to sources, the Start-Stop kit on the Scorpio only costs about 3.5K extra to build. My perceptions are that Micro-Hybrid will eliminate the existing starter motor with a More powerful Belt driven motor-alternator(instead of the alternator), they would need an upsized battery(to run the accesories) and would replace the AC Fan/Radiotor with a mechanism similar to Home AC's(one motor running the fan as well as the Compressors). Most other hardware required for this kind of hybrid is already present in the cars(like clutch depresssion sensors and In-gear sensor). Ofcourse this would require rewiring. Is there some thing i missed? Since we already pay extra for BS-III systems(in some cars) for cars sold in Cities, why not make this system compulsory too? After all we do idle the car about 60% of our journey(in Cities). When will we start seeing Start-Stop system on every model as a standard(not optional)? Also, Is there any one out there owing the Micro-Hybrid version of the Scorpio? Any inputs on the same?

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30th March 2009, 22:32	#6 (permalink)
Throttler Newbie Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Delhi Posts: 22	I came across a Micro hybrid Scorpio. The system used is very simple. it has a normal starter motor with enhanced bushing for increased cycle of operation and a battery with increased AH. Other than that there is a Electronic unit that switched off and on as per its algorithm. It has sensors to sense clutch engagement ,neutral position, vehicle speed engine RPM etc. The engine switches off completely so there is no chance that your AC would work. This feature is fairly useful in city conditions. Its ability to reduce pollution depends on the cycle of operation i.e. the frequency of switch on / off. "Hybrid" is something which uses more than one sources of energy. Like a Engine(Fuel)/Motor(Battery) OR Engine(Fuel)/Motor(Fuel Cell). "Micro-Hybrid" is definitely not a HYBRID.

31st March 2009, 11:50	#7 (permalink)
hrishig BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Pune Posts: 307	We should thank mahindra for at least providing the option. Unless it is used and tested in INDIA , how can we decide if is useful or not? The regenerative breaking is one more thing that should be provided on Indian road. If these technologies are good then they can become next must have on all the Indian cars, If they are not , they will die. As simple as that :-) But for this to happen they should be first offered on indian road with indian price ( Not like price for AIRBags we are paying in india)