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Old 11th August 2005, 08:18   #181
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Hi guys

I got a Vx to test drive yesterday and I can tell you that the plastics on the Vx are miles ahead of those on the Ex. Unless the Ex that I originally test drove was a true pre-production mule that isnt a representative of the real thing.

I like the Vx very much, but I cant even justify the price to myself. Latest news is that my Ex 4X4 is scheduled for delivery on the 18th - perhaps I'll just go ahead and change the plastics to Vx trip, dashboard, door trim and all...very nice gear knob, too.

Initial impressions about vibrations @ > 3,000 rpm and a vague steering remain. And yes, the redline DOES start at 3,000 rpm and the engine does slightly more than 2,200 rpm at 120 kmph. Top speed limited to 140 kmph.

Now how do I get hold of Pete's tuning box????? I need to take a look at all those hidden horses in that 3 litre stable.
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Old 11th August 2005, 08:21   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrie
The delphi fuel injection system is one of the weak links in the safari. Delphi's common rail technology is no where near bosch's.
How many vehicles have you seen, let alone driven, that have Delphi's common rail induction fitted in?

You're free to say that its unproven, but stating that its a weak link implies that you're either very conversant with engines using both technologies or that you're talking through the wrong end...
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Old 11th August 2005, 08:58   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
What you mentioned PLUS
Roof mounted a/c for rear seats. Electric mirrors. Fog lamps front and rear. Alloy wheels. Spare wheel cover (HAHAHA). and some other stuff. I'm going for the EX for 3 reasons - Alloy Wheels, Roof Mounted A/c. Rear window wash+wipe+demister.

The side footstep is a very big reason too, else you may not be able to take old folks on a Safari. Dont think you want people clambering in or falling off awkwardly...

And of course the spare wheel cover !!!!!
Sorry.... I didn't intend to question your selection of EX.
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Old 11th August 2005, 09:40   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
How many vehicles have you seen, let alone driven, that have Delphi's common rail induction fitted in?

You're free to say that its unproven, but stating that its a weak link implies that you're either very conversant with engines using both technologies or that you're talking through the wrong end...
Quote:
Do you work for MICO-Bosch ??
@ Steeroid and Mpower - This my source of information

Quote:
The Tatas fell out with Bosch and opted for Delphi to develop the common rail pump. In Europe, Delphi pumps are not at all preferred, as they have constraints in technology since Bosch has patented deep freezing and ECR machining. Mahindra, Hyundai and Maruti Udyog are pitching in money to develop CRDi kits through MICO-Bosch in Audugodi. Only Tata Motors have gone to Delphi, a move which I am sure will backfire.

PS: There is an interesting story how Common Rail was developed. 2 post graduate students from Napoli university were doing a project in Fiat, Southern Italy. They had come up with this idea while doing internship at Fiat. Fiat was not interested in making pumps. They approached both Delphi and Bosch that they will pass the IPR for free provided they set up a plant in Southern Italy and give work to the locals. Delphi wanted to do it as part of TRW in Florence, so got rejected. Bosch set up a plant in a place called Bari along the Mediterranean coast of Southern Italy and they have been making common rail pumps from there ever since. They then went on to patent a few manufacturing techniques that assure creep free cylinders that can hold diesel at 1000 1200 bar. Bosch went on to open new factories to manufacture CRDi pumps in Prague, Seoul, Stuttgart (There is this conveyor line from Bosch that runs underground with RFID fitted, straight into the assembly line of Daimler!!).

Over the years, the Bari plant had productivity issues and India was closing in on Euro 3. Now Bosch has invested 1500 crores, MUL 150 crores, Hyundai 300 crores and Mahindra some 200 crores to shift the plant from Bari and Prague after CP, CPK proving to Bangalore (Audugodi plant). The planned production is about 2500 kits a day from October 2006. This will be supplied to all diesel vehicles except tractors. The complementing engines will come up in the plants of Hyundai (for the getz, elantra, accent), MUL (for swift, zen, esteem) and Mahindra (for scorpio as well as for other vehicles). To give a roll over, MUL has discontinued production of Zen D and Esteem D effective this week.

Could be wrong, could be right. But this statement comes from a pioneer in tooling and manufacturing with more than 15 years of experience.

I know him and I believe him. Others take it with a pinch of salt. No offense meant
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Old 12th August 2005, 01:03   #185
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okay, got to drive the safari dicor today.... and, i hate to say it, but....it was a tad disappointing....the turbo lag in the earlier safaris was not so evident, but the dicor beats the 2.0 IDI by a country mile in that department....there's absolutely NO response until 1700 r.p.m...that sweet whistle of the turbo is absent too (which was addictive- at least for me)... and the engine revs only upto about 3600-3700, which is a pain.... the best part of the revband is between 1800 and 2500, where the you can see some sort of acceptable levels of refinement and performance. anything below or above, and it gets, well, queasy... and what's more- it feels like you are literally driving a damn semi....

the steering felt more precise than the earlier models- but there's a certain numbness to the overall feel. the feedback is good, although the operation is stiffer than what you expect it to be. and the brakes are way off the mark- dunno if this was a one-off, but the car that i drove didn't inspire any confidence while braking whatsoever, and the pedal was mushy. what's more, the rear tended to lock-up at the slightest hint of overload, and pulled to the left or right under hard braking....

pick-up was good though. will beat the scorpio in that dept, no doubt. i can't confirm about the innova. the test reports from the mags are due next month, so we shall confirm the figures then...

the plastic quality of the dicor is not so great. theres shades of light grey all around, and that's not a good thing. i didn't get to check out the vx, but to be frank, my 50,000 kays-run safari had better looking interiors....

to sum it up- i am going to adopt the wait and watch policy- at least for the moment; maybe tata will improve the flaws in their upcoming models; or better still, the fortuner's launch might be preponed..... damn, i shouldn't have sold my safari so soon....
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Old 12th August 2005, 07:02   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manoj
Sorry.... I didn't intend to question your selection of EX.
What was that for??? The apology, I mean...did the post sound like I was pissed off or something?

Veyron
Agree with you on throttle lag & plastics, but I didnt have an issue with braking..in fact tried it again on the vx @ 120kmph yesterday just to be on the safe side.

As for turbo lag, I wonder if a dump valve will be effective on this vehicle as it has been on my Smartie which suffers from turbo lag too...

Last edited by Steeroid : 12th August 2005 at 07:12.
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Old 12th August 2005, 17:01   #187
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okie friend.

So you are going t take delivery of safari.
pease do write a detailed write up on the initial runnings.

Happy Driving.
My schedules are getting longer. My office drive and back is now 57kms per day. need to buy a diesel vehicle soon.
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Old 12th August 2005, 17:25   #188
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Hey Steer, congratulations! So when are you getting hands on your new ride? 18th? Have you planned any mods/accessories for that monster?
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Old 12th August 2005, 18:34   #189
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Quote:
Agree with you on throttle lag & plastics, but I didnt have an issue with braking..in fact tried it again on the vx @ 120kmph yesterday just to be on the safe side.
like i said, steeroid- maybe it was a one-off, or the PDI of the vehicle that i drove hadn't been done properly. the brakes felt mushy to me, and didn't quite have the bite that i was used to in my older safari....but i feel that the abs is a must on the safari- without which, braking from under speeds of 70 kmph can be quite dramatic. the brakes are quite effective at higher speeds- but try slamming them at 60 or 70, and you shall see what i mean.... while the old safari only showed tendencies of the rear locking up, the dicor felt like it had a sure shot at doing a 35-degree swerve under harsh braking...which is not a good thing.... but then again, i am going in for a detailed test drive of the vx, after the mags come up with a report- i hope all my fears are found to be false- and i sincerely hope that the dicor was worth the wait... it's just that the initial impression was a downer....
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Old 12th August 2005, 19:35   #190
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errr...steeroid, i don't think dump valves (or bov's) will assist in removing the turbo lags of the diesels in any way....except producing that "psshhhht" noise while shifting or whenever the throttle is closed(similar to the noises heard from buses/trucks with air brakes, while releasing the excess pressurised air from the tanks), i don't think it'll remove the turbo lag; i think the safari's engine is suffering from low boost at low r.p.m's- the dump valve would be useful only if the excess boost in the intake manifold would travel back to the turbo, causing it to "choke".... a good way to check this, is while the engine is idling. when partial throttle is applied, the revs should increase after a certain lag/delay.but when the throttle is fully depressed at idle, the lag should be proportionate to the amount of lag at partial throttle. if not, then the boost is low, i.e, if the lag is excessive....

in case of the safari, i think i can safely assume that the 3000cc pot is under-boosted; in fact, i believe it could produce the same amount of power under similar levels of tune, naturally aspirated...
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Old 12th August 2005, 20:27   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
As for turbo lag, I wonder if a dump valve will be effective on this vehicle as it has been on my Smartie which suffers from turbo lag too...
Smart For2 is turbo petrol, right?

Last edited by Mpower : 12th August 2005 at 20:45.
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Old 12th August 2005, 23:55   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RX135
Hey Steer, congratulations! So when are you getting hands on your new ride? 18th? Have you planned any mods/accessories for that monster?
Thank you, RX. It was to be on the 18th, but Tata Motors couldnt give me a black or arizona blue (preferred colours) before then. I'm therefore going for a Silver EX, where the dealer will help me put on the Vx exterior trim (body coloured bumpers and claddings + chrome grille) - the silver EX looks like **** with the black bumpers and cladding but handsome in Vx trim.

Mods/Accessories:

1. V Kool, 2. Speakers, 3. S/W and Amplifier, though these are not urgent necessities, 4. Bullbar(?) and Fog Lamps, 5. (to be brought down from Africa) Police Horn. 6. (If I travel to Afghanisthan / Iraq on business) Rocket Launcher / Rocket Propelled Grenade launcher / Machine gun....
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Old 12th August 2005, 23:59   #193
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Originally Posted by Steeroid
6. (If I travel to Afghanisthan / Iraq on business) Rocket Launcher / Rocket Propelled Grenade launcher / Machine gun....
Make that two. I need it more often than not in Pune traffic.
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Old 13th August 2005, 00:00   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron1
errr...steeroid, i don't think dump valves (or bov's) will assist in removing the turbo lags of the diesels in any way....except producing that "psshhhht" noise while shifting or whenever the throttle is closed(similar to the noises heard from buses/trucks with air brakes, while releasing the excess pressurised air from the tanks)
Thanks for the input, Veyron. Your description of the excessive boost in the intake manifold SEEMS to make sense for the Dicor at this stage, but more on that later.

BTW, the dump valves (or BOVs) on the Smart make it sound like an elephant with a bad nose (or trunk) and not like the PSST noise from airbrakes...I've gotten used to it, and besides it startles people sometimes...
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Old 14th August 2005, 20:20   #195
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Default Dicor VX Vs Endeavour XLT Club

okay, here goes- since i wasn't very impressed with the new dicor initially, i decided to head out and test drive the vx 4x4. but no, it doesn't stop there. a few days ago, i had seen an ad in the paper quoting the "all new endeavour", and for some strange reason, i decided to check it out; and as it turns out, i was stunned by the results...

before i begin, let me quote some specifications first...

Dicor-
Type: common rail direct injection, in-line 4 cylinder, turocharged/intercooled.
Capacity: 3000cc
Power: 115 bhp @ 3000 r.p.m
Torque:300nm @1600-2000 r.p.m
Kerb weight: 2225 kgs
Ground clearance: 205 mm
Fuel efficiency (claimed): 9-12 kmpl

now the Endeavour-

Type: indirect injection, in-line 4 cylinder,turbocharged/intercooled.
Capacity: 2499cc
Power: 115 bhp @ 3500 r.p.m (i know that it was qutoed to be 110 in the earlier models, but a thorough investigation revealed that the Endeavour, in fact, has 115 horses- the new euro-III models, at least; if you want, i can post the pic of the euro-III model's brochure that quotes the same)
Torque: 279.5nm (28.5 kgm) @ 2000 r.p.m
Kerb weight: 1933/1958 kgs (4x2/4x4)
Ground clearance: 210 mm
Fuel efficiency- 8-10 kmpl

now, for the titbits- let me begin with the dicor. the vx variant that i drove was fully loaded, with abs, airbags, etc., as you know. but during my test drive, i found that this particular machine had niggling quality problems here and there, like noisy trims, spongy clutch, puffy brakes, etc. even the steering had a dead feel to it. in fact, the ex model that i had driven earlier in pune had better fit and finish. the only plus point was the upholstery and the seat fabrics. even the plastics on the rear a/c blower vents were uneven. but the vx is quite a looker, though.
the vehicle that i drove had some quite unpleasant vibes coming in at 2200 r.p.m+... and considering that the engine redlines at about 3000-3300, it's not a good thing... but the vehicle did feel relaxed at 140 kmph, lazily revving at about 2600 revs.....

now for the endeavour. with about 20 nm separating the the two, i expected the endeavour to be quite sluggish, since the safari was already sluggish enough with it's 300nm... as the car finally arrived for the test drive, i was astonished to find that the car had very good build quality. as i shut the doors and brought the engine to life, there wasn't even a purr... amazing.... i slotted into first, and lay back, expecting a delayed response- but lo, the car surged forward, shattering my notions into a million shards....i took the car to some really rough roads, expecting it to give up, and start wailing. but it stood up to all the thrashing, wihtout so much as a squeak- even the trims didn't utter a sigh...!!! simply great...now for some highway stuff...i redlined the engine in every gear, and before i knew it, i was cruising at 150....and the car didn't even mutter in protest... and the handling was WAY better than i expected. dunno if any changes have been made, but it sure feels different from the earlier models (read: 2004).....

note: both cars had true odo readings of 70 kms and 650 kms for the ford, and the tata, respectively....

verdict- if you have the moolah, go for the endeavour....although it is roughly two and a half lacs dearer than the safari in 2wd form, (the gap goes up to 3.5 for 4wd), it is worth every penny. the rear seats aren't as great as the safari's, but it's an excellent suv, and built like a tank- the build quality of the endeavour is much better than the safaris and corollas...
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