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Old 27th May 2009, 02:56   #16
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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Wow! they sell 20 year old car designs and they want growth !!

The only thing that surprises me is the lack of huge sales numbers from the SX4.
Well the 20 year old cars are going to be axed soon. I guess rest all are relatively newer designs and few of them as fresh as they can be (Read: Astar,Ritz,Swift,SX4,GV).

Their bread and butter model Alto is not a very old design considering that it has just been internationally replaced by the A-star.

So I guess 'selling 20 year old car desings' has nothing to do with their low sales. If Indian janta would had been so conscious/cautious of the old designs being sold to them, the 800,Omni,Santro,Amby,Octy,etc. would had been phased out atleast a couple of years ago.

The low sales of SX4 are not a surprise though, considering its low economy and lack of diesel option.


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Last edited by YC.BALENO.CHD : 27th May 2009 at 02:57.
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Old 27th May 2009, 08:13   #17
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Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
Well the 20 year old cars are going to be axed soon. I guess rest all are relatively newer designs and few of them as fresh as they can be (Read: Astar,Ritz,Swift,SX4,GV).

Their bread and butter model Alto is not a very old design considering that it has just been internationally replaced by the A-star.

So I guess 'selling 20 year old car desings' has nothing to do with their low sales. If Indian janta would had been so conscious/cautious of the old designs being sold to them, the 800,Omni,Santro,Amby,Octy,etc. would had been phased out atleast a couple of years ago.

The low sales of SX4 are not a surprise though, considering its low economy and lack of diesel option.


Regards.
  • They may be axed soon but they are not axed yet. Point is that you need new models to drive the sales rush.
  • Astar and Ritz have just been launched. It takes a while to reach steady state.
  • I did'nt say that they need to be phased out..I said you cannot expect growth with an old model.
  • I know that SX4 does not have a diesel, but neither does Honda City. SX4 is more VFM and that makes up for small economy drop
  • Read the article carefully. The problem is lack of sales growth..not low sales.
  • Point is '20 year old car' designs has everything to do with their lack of sales growth.
  • And by the way the phrase was a metaphor
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Old 27th May 2009, 09:17   #18
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I feel that Maruti has lost the plot somewhere. They used to do a fab job of mining customer insight and needs and launching vehicles based on that. The 800 was a great success and they should have logically replaced that with the Alto and continued by keeping it's aspirations up with the entry level segment and give the customer due respect that they deserve a more modern 800 than the tin can the old one is. How many really look at the 800 now as their first buy. For most it's either the Alto or the Santro? Now that the Nano is here will the 800 even matter even in rural India. I hope I'm proven wrong.

All I am saying is the small car market is highly competitive and is almost reaching saturation in terms of product/brand proliferation, but there exists other segments where they were the first to launch proven performers and now have forgotten those segments and competitors have come in and evolved them and Maruti lost its first mover advantage. Eg: Gypsy, Omni, Esteem, Baleno.

Now,lets take the case of the Maruti omni. A good success for them (even though it is an unsafe car), went through a few facejobs but is basically the same design for the last I don't know how many decades.Now TATA seems to have jumed in with some ugly beast known as the Winger or whatever, and is steadily increasing market share albeit for commercial use if not for personal transport. People knew it was for the joint/large families, businessmen and the taxis

The Zen was launched at a time when there was a need for an aspiration small hatch between the 800 and the sedan 1000/Esteem. It was a wonderful product, peppy, small and cute.The rest as all of us know is history.

The Versa was launched and did not succeed as customers did not see value at 8 lakhs.This should have been a good successor for the Omni if it was priced right, but Maruti wanted to skim higher margins thinking they had understood what value meant to the buyer.

Then the Innova came in with a Diesel in an untapped segment and Maruti ignored that.

Maruti failed to respond to the Scorpio threat by not wanting to bring in a product from its international stable to compete in this segment.Remember this segment was started by the Gypsy in the good old days to compete against the Mahindra product range.

Then they killed the Zen brand. I guess the Estilo can be a successor to the Wagon R and they look at launching a true Zen successor . I'm sure the Zen badge is still glowing bright in quite a few hearts and can be revived.

In any case what do you think Maruit's next step should be? That will be more interesting debate question.

Last edited by pranava999 : 27th May 2009 at 09:22. Reason: What should MSIL do next?
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Old 27th May 2009, 09:27   #19
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The growth is not coming from the car models. It is coming from the diesel engine!
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Old 27th May 2009, 09:33   #20
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Originally Posted by pranava999 View Post

The Versa was launched and did not succeed as customers did not see value at 8 lakhs.
Versa at 8 lakhs? Are you sure? I thought it is in 4.5 to 5.5l bracket
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Old 27th May 2009, 09:49   #21
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I think the reasonably slow take off by A-star is the core reason why Maruti is worried. A-star has to be new Alto. M800 will have to come down to under Rs. 1.8 lakh to fight with Nano, the new 800 will be Alto and A-star will have to stand where the present Alto stands.

A-star is a very nice car that is not picked up well, atleast initially. This was similar for Alto when it was launched with the campaign " Too hot " or something similar to that. Initially both Wagon R and Alto were not well received, but later on they did very well in the market.

A-star need some repositioning, and the new Wagon R i.e. Ritz must be successful for Maruti so sustain in long term. Moreover, its the diesel heart above Wagon R category that is bringing in sales for maruti and not the petrol models.

SX4 has an engine that is not strong at bottom end, has good midrange and then nothing more. Baleno has one thing that was good, the engine. But the weakest link in SX4 is the engine itself specially if compared to the new competitors.
What SX4 needs is a 1.6 with atleast 115 bhp and VVT, and a 1.6 diesel with VGT. This will again ensure success and will eat into competitors sales rather than eating into sales of models from Maruti.

Zen Estilo is a disaster. The Swift was a worthy successor to Zen, and now IMO, A-star truly picks up from where Zen had left.

Historically the models that have brought sales for Maruti are the Kei models from Japan. 800, Alto, Zen, Wagon R are all Kei cars. They have brought in success. The Europe centric models have not brought in so much success.
So IMHO maurti must bring in their Kei car till Wagon R level. Bring in the latest Wagon R that is available in Japan.
Atleast for Wagon R, bring in that latest car from Japan. Wagon R has created a niche for itself, almost similar to original Zen. I hope they dont mess it up with the image of Wagon R.

I hope that the models like A-star and Ritz will bring in success. They have motors that are ture successors to the fantastic G-series line. They are built well as compared to Wagon R or Swift. They are indeed well engineered cars.

Maruti needs new range of engines that are powerful yet efficient. M-series is the main reason for SX4 selling low. I hope K series based 1.6 ( if that is possible ) comes in soon in SX4.
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Old 27th May 2009, 09:57   #22
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Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
However, SX4 is the replacement for Baleno. Esteem has been replaced by Dezire which is doing decent numbers thanks to the diesel variant.
Thanks for correcting me. When I mentioned the car/platform, I also meant a car/platform in the same price range. Esteem was surely cheaper than SX4 and the latter shares its price point with Baleno.
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
But, IMHO Swift and DZire were the successors of Esteem, and they have done a wonderful job in that price bracket.
If we care to see what Esteem stood for in its hey day - a great family sedan with excellent mileage/performance parameters - it is clear that Dezire and Swift don't fill the void. Swift is a hatch, so it defeats a big purpose of Indians shelling big money- that to have a 'proper' car as my father would call it (read a sedan). Dezire was a conscious attempt to fill that void at the Esteem's price point, but it was a quick fix solution as in to stick a boot to the Swift. When your house is crumbling, you don't go buy Quick fix or Feviquik or whatever, you go for steel and concrete reinforcement. That is what Maruti has to realize in my opinion. They truly need to launch a 'proper car' at Esteem's price point and watch sales zoom.
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Old 27th May 2009, 10:29   #23
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Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
Scrap model?! Come on it may not be to your taste but calling it Scrap?! Not the wisest thing to do. It hasn't bagged numerous indian and international awards for nothing.
Scrap mean, the Old model, Mix and match combination etc... I think u must be knowing that Still they want to sell M800 and OMNI (Most Unsafe) vehicle with some engine change becos GOVT want euro 4.
Suzuki is making money from Indian Customer only not much from world wide. After Swift what is the Good vehicle MSIL has been launched in Indian Market.
Hope you know the no of ZEN/Astar... In the road.
What ever my basic point is that MSIL should give something Good. They cant keep fooling Indian Customer to keep their market share.

Last edited by Technocrat : 27th May 2009 at 16:02. Reason: fixed quotes
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Old 27th May 2009, 13:51   #24
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Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
The growth is not coming from the car models. It is coming from the diesel engine!
Exactly what I thought when I read the report.

It would be interesting to see petrol Swift and Dzire sales numbers. It will tell us how much toruble Maruti would be in if they didn't have access to the MJD engine.
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Old 27th May 2009, 15:30   #25
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Originally Posted by arin_12 View Post
They cant keep fooling Indian Customer to keep their market share.
So vote with your wallet and stop getting fooled. It's a free country and no one is forcing Indian customers to buy Maruti. Tata and Hyundai are reasonable alternatives. The fact that Maruti has managed to retain a 50% marketshare for several years shows that they are getting something right somewhere.

Maruti's biggest headache at the moment is the lukewarm reception to the A Star. This was their biggest strategic model after the Swift and they needed propsective Alto customers to buy the A Star instead. They needed this to happen so that the Alto can be stripped down to compete with the Nano. Unfortunately for Maruti, the public still loves the Alto and the VFM that it provides as an entry level model. This puts them in a big dilemma. The A Star needs a price cut to get it going just like the Alto needed a big price cut earlier in the decade to kickstart sales.

They need growth in the 7 lacs+ segment as well. They need to fit a diesel into the SX4 at the earliest.

They have also ignored the MUV segment for too long. They need to launch a model to compete with the Xylo and the Scorpio.

Launching too many models in the 3-5 lac range will only get you so much growth. You need to diversify further.
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Old 27th May 2009, 15:41   #26
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What Maruti also missed out somewhere along the line is the opportunity to put up good competition to the Bolero (MUV), Innova, and the Scorpio-Safari (basically the MUV, SUV segment). Not only would they have a more comprehensive model line-up, but they would also have scope for more sales growth.

Maybe their decision to stay away from diesel in the 1990s and early 2000s can be blamed for this. Had they started off on good diesel technology (esp for small cars) back in the days TML started Indica, they would have had a bigger market share.

And I still believe that they have a somewhat confusing small-car line-up, but then I guess a customer comes away with one of their cars anyways, trusting that it's a "Maruti". It's only in the sedan segment that people seem to move to other manufacturers if they don't like the SX4, Dezire.
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Old 27th May 2009, 16:57   #27
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1) Revamp the sx4, maybe a bodykit or two, add a powerful diesel engine and city is beat.

2) Get the van asap

3) A star, cut prices to get the alto fan clubs on board

4) Don't phase out the alto, strip it down totally and completely to compete with nano

5) Increase the quality with a much more powerful diesel engine in the GV. It just can't compete at that price when it has hatchback interiors

6) As amit said, stop selling engines, start selling cars.

8) Add creature comforts to the gypsy

7) Kill the ritz. It's going to die when the new swift comes anyway. I'll never understand why it was brought. Lets not discuss this now on this topic.
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Old 27th May 2009, 17:08   #28
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It is surprising that it took this long to find out something is wrong. Maruti was so busy bringing in inferior and outdated models with periodical facelifts. Look at 800, alto, estillo, wagonR, all platforms which are at least a decade and half old with almost no changes apart from cosmetic ones. And they are made to compete in the same segment many of them even sharing the same engine.
Then we had some ray of hope when they intoduced swift. But then again it was launched with an inferior engine (1.3 instead of the 1.5 sold abroad).
To be fair they were a little better after that with launch of SX4, the 1.3 diesel engines, AStar, and now Ritz.
Good thing that AStar was made and exported from India, else they would have plonked the 800cc alto engine in the local version here. But wait, they had to price it high so as to reduce the threat not just to alto but the estillo and wagonr too.
And look at ritz now. It is obvious it will eat into the sales of swift. Swift has lost its significance in the maruti range. Unless they do what they have done in other markets. Get a 1.5 L petrol for the swift, so that it has a USP against ritz. With ritz slotted below it the customer has clarity when choosing between ritz and swift.
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Old 27th May 2009, 17:10   #29
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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
So vote with your wallet and stop getting fooled. It's a free country and no one is forcing Indian customers to buy Maruti. Tata and Hyundai are reasonable alternatives. The fact that Maruti has managed to retain a 50% marketshare for several years shows that they are getting something right somewhere.

They need to fit a diesel into the SX4 at the earliest.

They have also ignored the MUV segment for too long. They need to launch a model to compete with the Xylo and the Scorpio.

Launching too many models in the 3-5 lac range will only get you so much growth. You need to diversify further.

Absolutely Spot on!


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Originally Posted by arin_12 View Post
Scrap mean, the Old model, Mix and match combination etc..
Suzuki is making money from Indian Customer only not much from world wide. After Swift what is the Good vehicle MSIL has been launched in Indian Market.
Hope you know the no of ZEN/Astar... In the road.
What ever my basic point is that MSIL should give something Good. They cant keep fooling Indian Customer to keep their market share.
Well in your earlier post you had constantly refferred Swift as the "scrap model'. Anyways, I may have misunderstood.

As for making money, all the manufactuers have one common goal. to earn profits and its not that MSIL is doing anything illegal to make money.

Oh really?! Something good??
Well after Swift we had the SX4 and I guess barring the City, SX4 sells more than petrol Verna and Fiesta and also more than Aveo and Linea 1.4. 1800-2500 units is a good if not class leading number for a thirsty petrol car.

Then we have the A-star, which has started picking up sales and as with some of MSIL products, it will cover lost ground quickly once people come to know of its fantastic economy.

We have the Ritz as well, and you must be aware of the excellent review by GTO and its a matter of few days we shall have quite a few units of Ritz (diesel probably) on the roads.

And what 'something good' you are asking for?? Do u want a Swift with a 115bhp 1.6 that still gives 25 kmpl and have features comparable to a Toyota Corolla? And all this at a price of 3.5 lakhs??
Come on sir, your statement translates into "except for swift, all cars from maruti are not good". !!



Finally, its incorrect to say that SUZUKI is doing well in India only, without any adequate data how can you or anyone comment that most of the sales that SUZUKI products generate are from India only???


Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
The growth is not coming from the car models. It is coming from the diesel engine!
Yes, quite true, but let us see other maufacturers as well.

TATA---all the sales from Diesel cars.
FORD---Fiesta diesel and Ikon diesel outsell petrol models by a huuuge margin.
HYUNDAI---MSIL has diesel option starting from Rs.4.5 lakhs onwards. So does hyundai. Again the Verna diesel, Elantra Diesel, Embera Diesel outsell their petrol variants. Accent CRDi too used to sell more than Accent petrol.
SKODA---Again diesel outsells petrol.

Same for all other manufactuers who have diesel variants.

Point still remains that whatever may be the reasons people are preffering diesel cars now and its the same for all maunfacturers.

As for small budget cars, barring the i10 and the Nano, I guess no other car in market today has the potential to outsell any of the small cars from Maruti presently.


Regards.

Last edited by YC.BALENO.CHD : 27th May 2009 at 17:14.
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