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Old 28th May 2009, 08:34   #16
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
but it says european model.
it also says that: These safety features are a standard offering across the entire range of Honda in the Indian market.
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Old 28th May 2009, 08:47   #17
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Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
Still, baleno was no match for the new cars like Aveos, NHCs, etc. in crash safety.


However, what I like about Maruti is that it offered WagonR, swift and Estilo with optional airbags and ABS at a time when most others did not provided such option for similar cars. And for that I'll give maruti the credit it deserves.
If you see the crashed NHC at Panjim (Goa) Police station, you realise the crash worthiness (or lack of it) of the NHC.

Maruti gets the credit for launching feature later than others. Suprisingly people forgot that the Palio GTX was offered with Airbags & ABS long before Maruti knew what these features were.
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Old 28th May 2009, 08:58   #18
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Just out of curiosity, does anybody know how much the i20, the Honda Jazz and the A-Star are priced at in Europe?
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Old 28th May 2009, 09:12   #19
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I do not think we need to see this as a competition of safety ratings. These test results are stand-alone figures. It is not the rating of A-Star versus i20 versus Audi, etc.

These are just like our BEE (electricity efficiency) ratings. Every model they test are rated as per a standard checklist. After that, it is left to the consumers to decide if they want a high rating vehicle or a lower rating vehicle.
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Old 28th May 2009, 09:30   #20
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A-Star scores above Audi in pedestrian protection which is very vital here in India. :
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Old 28th May 2009, 09:57   #21
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Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
edit-- Mods are requested to change the title to something like " Is A-star not a Safe star??" as the current title seems more like a verdict and a 3-star rating does not really make the car 'unsafe'.

Regards
I agree. Unless I am mistaken, most things in life are relative not absolute. The A-star is not as safe as some other vehicles. And, the A-star is much safer than some other vehicles.

Here are my comments on the latest Euroncap results:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/what-c...ml#post1322280 (Car with the best safety features ?)

If you have questions or comments, feel free to discuss it either on that thread or this one.

Moderators, please decide if it is ok to talk about crash test results on two different threads or whether a merger should be made.
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Old 28th May 2009, 11:31   #22
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Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
1) As for Baleno, it had a mere 2 star for the NCAP rating, while cars like Accent too got 2 star. Fact is that baleno got 2 star for non airbag version and accent got if for variant with 2 air bags. Still, baleno was no match for the new cars like Aveos, NHCs, etc. in crash safety.


2) However, what I like about Maruti is that it offered WagonR, swift and Estilo with optional airbags and ABS at a time when most others did not provided such option for similar cars. And for that I'll give maruti the credit it deserves.

3) Anyways, coming back to the topic, what I am thinking is when the Euro spec A-star got 3 stars in NCAP rating, what will our non-airbag version manage? High time govt. should make atleast driver's airbag mandatory even if it leads to higher costs.
1) Aveo rating is 2/5 with aribags. Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Chevrolet Aveo
Lancer has the same rating. Out of all the cars, IMO without airbags Baleno scored better than Accent, Lancer. Diamler-Chrsyler, Hyundai and Mitsubishi were involved in Global Automotive Alliance ( IIRC ) and so they did share technology etc. Colt was available with same 3 cylinder diesel as Accent CRDi. Lancer and Accent also are rumored to be quite similar in many aspects.

There are many threads one particular was when a Honda City ( G2HC/NHC ) rammed into a cyclist who was a national level sportsperson. The damage to Honda City was extensive. Also in another picture somewhere on this forum, G2HC/HNC rammed into side of Wagon R. The entire firewall came in and some plastic on the central console broke down. This must not happen. The cabin must stop any intrusion. We did not face this when our car Baleno rear ended an Accent ( A thread exists on this ). So I doubt the quality of Honda products.

Even in the Accidents in India thread, a user " lamborghini " posted what happens when an Esteem and latest gen Accord meet with head on collosion. The damage to Accord was too much.

2) I appreciate Maruti too. They were the first to offer these features.

3) The quality of cars sold in India are always a doubt. Best example is Honda City ( G2HC/NHC ) as there are a couple of threads for the same doubt. This can be true for Maruti and all cars that are sold in India. And as we know, its matter of some money for large manufacturers to bribe anybody in India.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post

1) Why do you guys want to compare the safety points between the Jazz/i20/A-Star & whats the point in doing so?

When the EuroNCAP says that a car has scored only 3 Stars, then its only a 3 star rated unsafe car. There is nothing like it is built worthy for a human being who can spend only 4 Lakh Rs on a car. Even if a person spends 4 Lakhs or 40 Lakhs the same standard safety NCAP rating SHOULD be available.

2) A-Star is unsafe and for that matter most of the Maruti cars are unsafe. It would be interesting to see if all the Maruti cars are sent for a EuroNCAP rating!
1) Audi Q7 scored 4/5 stars. Swift has 4/5 stars. i10 has 4/5 stars, Ritz ( Splash ) has 4/5 stars.

Does this mean that Audi Q7 is only as safe as Swift ?

2) How can you come to these conclusions ? The only cars that are quite upto European standards as far as chassis standards are concerned are those from German Manufacturers and Toyota.
I dont know how you called GV or SX4 or even Swift, Ritz as unsafe.
If Maruti SX4 with 4/5 stars is unsafe, then Civic ( which weighs in almost similar to SX4 ) with 4/5 rating must also be unsafe. Right ?

The point I am trying to make is simple. The cars sold in India, i.e. whose body-in-white is created in India are generally not upto the European quality or standards. Also 3 stars does not mean a car is unsafe and will kill humans.
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Old 28th May 2009, 13:21   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) Audi Q7 scored 4/5 stars. Swift has 4/5 stars. i10 has 4/5 stars, Ritz ( Splash ) has 4/5 stars.

Does this mean that Audi Q7 is only as safe as Swift ?
NCAP ratings are based on tests performed with a deformable crash barrier/pole crashing into the car etc.

An actual collision with another car is not done.

So if two cars get the same ratings, it means that in a crash involving just that car and some other object like a tree or a wall, then the cars would perform similarly in the safety aspect, regardless of their weight.

This is because as the weight increases, so does the momentum associated with it at a particular speed, and hence the energy to be dissipated at the time of the collision is more.

However, when a lighter car collides with a heavier car, the lighter car is always at a disadvantage. A simple physics analysis would show that the force experienced by the smaller car is more.

Hence, in a real world collision involving two cars, the heavier car wins, given the safety ratings are similar.

And it is a very big misconception that the more deformed the car is after an accident, the less safer it is.

While I haven't actually seen the pics of the NHC and the Accord, and I'm not attesting to the safety offered by these two cars, but in a collision, it is the job of the crash zones in a car to deform as much as possible and take away as much of the kinetic energy as possible from the passenger cabin.

In a crash, always look at the passenger cabin, starting from the A-pillar. If that is intact (not bent or maligned) , it means that the energy was successfully absorbed by the engine compartment and was not allowed to reach the passenger cell.

People say that the ambassador is a very safe car. Nothing would happen to it even if you were to run it into a tree.

Good. For the car.

Bad.
Very Bad. For you
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Old 28th May 2009, 14:13   #24
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Maruti's build quality has been decreased considerably over the years.

They are now using very thin materials, this should be also considered while giving any ratings.
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Old 28th May 2009, 14:27   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
The crash test's scorecard can hardly be questioned.
But IMHO its close to being unfair. To put it clearly let me first of all discount the Q5, Soul and 3008.
......
It will be better if we compare the i20 with say a ritz and/or a swift. Compariong A-star with i20 (even in safety) is like comparing the SX4 with a Civic.
I know safety should be paramount and it would not had been bad if A-star could score better but the NCAP scorecard should be treated more as test report then a comparo. Come on, no one ever expected teh A-star to be compared with a q5 or even the jazz.


Regards.
well said, sitting in the a-star feels good, and doesnt give u the feel that it has been made up from cheap parts.

cheers,
ac
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Old 28th May 2009, 15:44   #26
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Quote:
Suprisingly people forgot that the Palio GTX was offered with Airbags & ABS long before Maruti knew what these features were.
I was praising Maruti because it introduced safety features in cars like WagonR and Estilo which belong to a segment lower than the Palio 1.6. Still, I appreciate Fiat for introducing such features in the Palio when no hatch on sale had these features. And thanks for reminding.


Quote:
A-Star is unsafe and for that matter most of the Maruti cars are unsafe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post

2) How can you come to these conclusions ? The only cars that are quite upto European standards as far as chassis standards are concerned are those from German Manufacturers and Toyota.
I dont know how you called GV or SX4 or even Swift, Ritz as unsafe.
If Maruti SX4 with 4/5 stars is unsafe, then Civic ( which weighs in almost similar to SX4 ) with 4/5 rating must also be unsafe. Right ?

The point I am trying to make is simple. The cars sold in India, i.e. whose body-in-white is created in India are generally not upto the European quality or standards. Also 3 stars does not mean a car is unsafe and will kill humans.
Yes, absolutely spot on. Its quite unfair to say all Maruti cars are unsafe. We can't expect a sedan that costs 7 lakhs to be as safe as a Volvo, can we?
Ofcourse, there are some exceptions amongst regular cars and Maruti is often blamed because they make 'light' cars but that does not necessarily mean that the crash safety is very much lower than the rivals.
Its really sad how some of us go to great extent by labelling the entire line up of a manufacturer as unsafe.

Ofcourse, M800 is not good at crash safety, ditto with the OMNI & Gypsy but rest of the line up consists of fairly modern cars.



PS- Am quite glad to know that my old gen sedan from Maruti is as good or as bad as most of the newer gen cars when it comes to crash safety.

Last edited by YC.BALENO.CHD : 28th May 2009 at 15:45.
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Old 28th May 2009, 16:41   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) Audi Q7 scored 4/5 stars. Swift has 4/5 stars. i10 has 4/5 stars, Ritz ( Splash ) has 4/5 stars.

Does this mean that Audi Q7 is only as safe as Swift ?

2) How can you come to these conclusions ? The only cars that are quite upto European standards as far as chassis standards are concerned are those from German Manufacturers and Toyota.
I dont know how you called GV or SX4 or even Swift, Ritz as unsafe.
If Maruti SX4 with 4/5 stars is unsafe, then Civic ( which weighs in almost similar to SX4 ) with 4/5 rating must also be unsafe. Right ?

The point I am trying to make is simple. The cars sold in India, i.e. whose body-in-white is created in India are generally not upto the European quality or standards. Also 3 stars does not mean a car is unsafe and will kill humans.
You cannot compare safety ratings based on the cost of a vehicle. Any vehicle should have a safety rating and I dont think we would make a good point if we want to compare the safety rating between different vehicles. Every vehicle has its own strengths and weakness.

But I am surprised that an A-Star which is built for the European market has scored so bad.

The GV is in India as a CBU and I am sure that it would be built to international standards.

The A-Star manufactured in India for India and the A-Star manufactured in Europe for the Europe will have lot of difference. All you see outside is just the shiny paint and there are many things underneath the body which actually saves life.

Do you think the Indian Alto has crumple zones by any chance? Have been watching the "Accidents in India" thread and the most common car which has shown little sign of a crumple zone in action is Maruti.

And the safety rating you have talked about here for SX4, Swift, Ritz(Splash) is all Suzuki products. I am talking here about Maruti product.
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Old 28th May 2009, 16:47   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
in a collision, it is the job of the crash zones in a car to deform as much as possible and take away as much of the kinetic energy as possible from the passenger cabin.

In a crash, always look at the passenger cabin, starting from the A-pillar. If that is intact (not bent or maligned) , it means that the energy was successfully absorbed by the engine compartment and was not allowed to reach the passenger cell.

People say that the ambassador is a very safe car. Nothing would happen to it even if you were to run it into a tree.

Good. For the car.

Bad. Very Bad. For you
Thanks d3mon for putting things into perspective. I believed that Ambassador is strongest and hence safest. One of my "knowledgable" friend used to say that politicians prefer Ambassador because it is the safest car for the Indian road conditions.
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Old 28th May 2009, 16:56   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
You cannot compare safety ratings based on the cost of a vehicle.
What is this now? You expect a M800 to have a safety rating similar to C class? How can anyone imagine that a car that costs one tenth of the other have a similar safety rating?
Quote:
But I am surprised that an A-Star which is built for the European market has scored so bad.
There is nothing surprising in it. A-star was never expected to be as safe as an Audi or a Jazz. Its a budget hatch and if had as much safety equipment as the other cars it would had surely faired a little better.
Quote:
The GV is in India as a CBU and I am sure that it would be built to international standards.
As a matter of fact even the Euro A-star is manufactured in India. The nissan pixo (re-badged A star) too is manufactured here. They share the manufacturing lines with the 'Indian quality' A-star. Only differences are the '3 door variants', More airbags and different trim levels. The basic components such as chassis, etc. are of same quality. As are the engines and mechanicals.
Quote:
The A-Star manufactured in India for India and the A-Star manufactured in Europe for the Europe will have lot of difference.
Like i said. Euro-spec A-star is manufactured in India only.
Quote:
All you see outside is just the shiny paint and there are many things underneath the body which actually saves life.
This statement has nothing to do with A-star and is rather general for all the cars.

Quote:
Do you think the Indian Alto has crumple zones by any chance? Have been watching the "Accidents in India" thread and the most common car which has shown little sign of a crumple zone in action is Maruti.

What makes you thing it doesn't have any crumple zones??!

As for Accidents thread, there is more to those pics that meets the eye. If you have been a regular reader of the thread, you must have noticed Optras/NHCs/Pajeros totalled and in some cases occupants losing their lives. So? Are all those cars as unsafe as the alto?
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Old 28th May 2009, 17:14   #30
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Do you think the Indian Alto has crumple zones by any chance? Have been watching the "Accidents in India" thread and the most common car which has shown little sign of a crumple zone in action is Maruti.
All cars have crumple zones. It's not something like an airbag which you either have or you don't have.

It is built into the body of the car at the design stage itself.

What matters is how effective the crumple zones are to absorb the kinetic energy at the time of impact.

EDIT: And thanks to the MODS for changing the thread title.

Last edited by d3mon : 28th May 2009 at 17:18.
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