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Old 16th June 2009, 15:23   #76
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There was a sudden spurt of Palio sales in May. Does that mean Fiat will continue with the brand after the launch of Grande Punto? Is there a way to know whether the petrol or the diesel Palio is selling more? I wish the 1.1 ltr petrol version sold more and that Fiat continues producing it. It will be prudent for Fiat to stop selling the diesel Palio, however, so that they can postion different diesel variants of Punto to compete with the entire range of Swift DDiS and upcoming i20 CRDi.

About the pricing of the Jazz I agree that there is a hefty premium. But then some of the unique features incorporated in the car must have cost a lot during R&D stage. Honda does have some justification in charging the premium to recover the cost early. When the demand for the car begins to wane Honda will definitely dance according to the tune of the market (introducing price-reductions/discounts).
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Old 16th June 2009, 15:48   #77
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Cool Linea rox.... again!

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Originally Posted by shrinivasap View Post
a) I haven't seen any one in my life so far buying a car without doing research. When i say research, it doesn't mean only internet. You can ask your friends, watch reviews on TV, Read news papers, magazines etc etc. I took almost more than 6 months to decide and i am sure majority belongs to my category...after all, spending 9 to 10 lacs is huge...

2) I haven't seen any ANHC in seconds market so far in Bangalore..even if it is available in Chennai, did you ask the owner why is he selling? You shouldn't assume that he sold because he didn't like...that is quite unbelievable...there can be 100 other reasons even if he does..

3) Niggling Issues: Have you seen anywhere folks discussing ANHC Niggling Issues? Yes, it is not perfect, but it is the best option in that price range.

4) People won't pat just for Honda brand. If that is your logic, then CIVIC, ACCORD and CVR should be market leaders in respective segments. But it isn't because there are other good options available. People are smart enough to decide what they want.

I am a proud owner of ANHC and i love it beacuse i don't have any issues. They day i face any issues, i will be the first person to report here.
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Originally Posted by crazyro View Post
Hi autocarcr,

We have bought ANHC. I agree it is slightly overpriced. But the driving pleasure and peace of mind it gives is priceless !!!!!

I think you are only interested in features that we use once in a blue moon and isnt really interested in the most important aspects of a car.

No one talks about the cheap engines (hatchback engines) offered by Fiat in the Linea.

ANHC rocks !!!!
@srinvasap: That is where you went wrong- I agree that people do research cars and buy them and you researched for 6 months before you bought your ANHC but on that note I would like to tell you that I researched for more than a year and a half (since the release of the SX4 in 2007) about which sedan to buy and frankly I didnt think I was going to spend my money on something that (AS I PREVIOUSLY EXPLICITLY STATED) doesn't offer the features of its competitors. You claim that ANHC is the best in the segment because it has an 114PS engine that goes to speeds of 100kmph in about 11 seconds which is only 3.5 seconds below the Linea's and frankly the City guzzles slightly more petrol than the Linea as it is more powerful and hence it is hard on the environment and the pocket (I am talking in very small amounts). Other than that I dont think you are going to anyway be travelling at speeds of over 100kmph- ! not even 70kmph within the city limits (even though the limit is 40-45kmph) so having a powerful engine to pull such a small weight car is practically useless- moreover you are paying a premium of 2 lakhs just for that AND you dont even get features thrown in. I KNOW that features such as fog lamps would come in handy in misty gyan bharathi and nayandanahalli- as is Bangalore's round the year weather- more accidents occur due to that on the road so it is unsafe too- In delhi it will be much worse!!! And if you are having the habit of carrying Pen drives in your car then good for you! Becos you cant put the CDs there! And coming to the niggling issues- you might not have seen them on Team-bhp but I have certainly seen them in flesh (I would request you to go through my previous post once again THOROUGHLY). And coming to Honda- maybe you aren't aware but before the advent of the Altis and Captiva- Honda were leaders and they also priced their cars so close together that their own models starting eating into sales against one another (a stupid marketing strategy I should say) Hence Civic buyers go in for City and Accord buyers for Civic hence is explained the superb numbers for the City and the Dismal numbers for the others- I HOPE IT IS VERY CLEAR! Anyways Good thing that you are happy with a car you payed through your nose for- maybe that reseller i told you about was not happy!! Happy driving! But I still think for the sake of non-Honda City owners Honda should be made to buck up for masking the public. (PLEASE READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS FOR THE ATROCITIES THEY COMMIT)

@crazyro I am glad you see that the car is overpriced albeit not slightly but by an extensive amount (2.5 lakh over its nearest competitors). But I am afraid to say that unless you are prepared the peace of mind may not last long- what with tremoundously over priced spare parts a good 115% costlier over the entire range than its competitors- you would end up paying 9000 for the same set of front headlamps that you will pay 4500 if you had a Linea- if you are OK with high cost of maintainance then good for you!

AND I am sorry but I never remember mentioning that I USE features ONLY ONCE in a Blue Moon- I use Blue "Tooth" quite often on the go and it is easier to change my tracks of the songs I play on my CDs talking to the brainy computer- I would also occasionally like to keep my speed in limits and a warning for when my seat belt (which I also use unlike most other people) is not put should serve me just fine! I would also like stylish alloy wheels which are not like flimsy plastic wheel caps that may come off, plus I would like a rear AC vent and a sunblind to keep out the terrible weather and keep my family and freinds in the back seat more comfartable than any other car in the same segment!!!! I would also use fog lamps to see my way through a fog so that I might not jump into a dangerous ravine while driving in the hills and I would also want rear fog lamps to keep people driving behind me in the fog safe too! I would also like Fire prevention System to keep the engine from burning in the unfortunate event of a head on collision (which wont happen by god's grace) and I would also like a car which is bult on a very safe platform which has recently received Euro NCAP 5 star rating (GP tests ) AND although there are more things to say (which we dont have to use and they work on themselves), the icing on the cake is that I can get features (like Bluetooth etc.) which even an Accord doesn't have let alone Civic and City that too for 2.5 lacs less than the City itself!
So what if my engine is underpowered (as SOME people claim but most people dont) I atleast get more fuel economy and appreciable thrust that will get me from point A to B and even allow me to overtake any highway vehicle! Who said fuel economy cheaper spare parts and NOW growing service network is not an important aspect of the car that you claim I dont care about?? Huh! I think you dont care about the important aspects of the car as much as I do. I think all you care is a demonic engine and racy speeds that might damage your car on such rugged Indian roads with those thin tyres of the ANHC!!

And you must be dreaming when you said that the 'cheap' engines in the Linea, internationally acclaimed (to be in the Swift, Indica Vista, Indigo Vista, Ritz, Swift Dzire, Grande Punto, Linea and the petrol engines too) are not talked about! The Multijet and Fire engines are internationally acclaimed to have the best fuel economy such that the deal b/w Fiat and Chrysler to make Fiat 5th largest automaker in the world (pushing Honda to 7th) involved exchange of the very same engines to increase the overall fuel efficiency of Chrysler cars around USA. And somebody told be that I wasnt bothered about 'certain important aspects' such as a racy engine and low fuel efficiency in the ANHC!!! hypocritic in my opinion. Anyway good that you like what you paid for just like srinivasap.... although I think Honda still cheats- LOOK AT THE jazzy price of the JAZZ and you will know!!! (PLEASE READ MY POSTS THROUGHLY BEFORE REPLYING)

Linea rox!!!!

CR
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Old 16th June 2009, 16:22   #78
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Both the cars are good. One will sell more then the other. Sometimes there are reasons other then product that decides sales. For whatever reasons, Honda has managed to create a brand image in our country while Fiat tried and failed. In any case, Fiat is no angel. If they were selling as much as Honda does, they would never bring in Blue&Me in their cars so soon. It's always competition that forces you to improve your product and standards.

- If SX4 didn't have steering mounted controls, City, Linea, i20 wouldn't have given it.

- If SX4 didn't offer ABS and Airbags, Honda would never have given these features in their new City. Neither would Fiat offer them in the Linea and nor would Ford upgrade their Fiesta with ABS and Airbags. And ironically, if Maruti could manage to sell their cars easily in the C segment, they would never have offered ABS and Airbags in the SX4 in the first place!

- This applies to all sectors. Until a few months back, Fortune Hotel at Vashi had pathetic service. I have gone there about 5 times in the last 15 days and the service standards have dramatically improved. Why the sudden change of heart? Sheraton is slated to open in Vashi very soon.
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Old 16th June 2009, 16:33   #79
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Crazyro,
The Linea does have small displacement engines which are used in both Hatchbacks and Sedans. While these engines may not be the most powerful in their class, please do not forget the earlier gen HC had an engine dishing out just 77 BHP. Going by the yardstick used by you it would qualify as a hathback engine as well. It was sufficient fore most people and the car was very successful.

Linea is selling pretty well ( may be not as well as the ANHC) and Honda would ignore it only at its own risk.
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Old 16th June 2009, 16:34   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
Both the cars are good. One will sell more then the other. Sometimes there are reasons other then product that decides sales. For whatever reasons, Honda has managed to create a brand image in our country while Fiat tried and failed. In any case, Fiat is no angel. If they were selling as much as Honda does, they would never bring in Blue&Me in their cars so soon. It's always competition that forces you to improve your product and standards.

- If SX4 didn't have steering mounted controls, City, Linea, i20 wouldn't have given it.

- If SX4 didn't offer ABS and Airbags, Honda would never have given these features in their new City. Neither would Fiat offer them in the Linea and nor would Ford upgrade their Fiesta with ABS and Airbags. And ironically, if Maruti could manage to sell their cars easily in the C segment, they would never have offered ABS and Airbags in the SX4 in the first place!

- This applies to all sectors. Until a few months back, Fortune Hotel at Vashi had pathetic service. I have gone there about 5 times in the last 15 days and the service standards have dramatically improved. Why the sudden change of heart? Sheraton is slated to open in Vashi very soon.
Absolutely fantastic post! Competition is VERY GOOD.
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Old 16th June 2009, 16:38   #81
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@amit- That's a very good post, you have rightly pointed out the sudden kindness shown by all auto makers in providing not so common before features on their cars.
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Old 16th June 2009, 16:44   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
Both the cars are good. One will sell more then the other. Sometimes there are reasons other then product that decides sales. For whatever reasons, Honda has managed to create a brand image in our country while Fiat tried and failed. In any case, Fiat is no angel. If they were selling as much as Honda does, they would never bring in Blue&Me in their cars so soon. It's always competition that forces you to improve your product and standards.

- If SX4 didn't have steering mounted controls, City, Linea, i20 wouldn't have given it.

- If SX4 didn't offer ABS and Airbags, Honda would never have given these features in their new City. Neither would Fiat offer them in the Linea and nor would Ford upgrade their Fiesta with ABS and Airbags. And ironically, if Maruti could manage to sell their cars easily in the C segment, they would never have offered ABS and Airbags in the SX4 in the first place!

- This applies to all sectors. Until a few months back, Fortune Hotel at Vashi had pathetic service. I have gone there about 5 times in the last 15 days and the service standards have dramatically improved. Why the sudden change of heart? Sheraton is slated to open in Vashi very soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajneeesh View Post
Crazyro,
The Linea does have small displacement engines which are used in both Hatchbacks and Sedans. While these engines may not be the most powerful in their class, please do not forget the earlier gen HC had an engine dishing out just 77 BHP. Going by the yardstick used by you it would qualify as a hathback engine as well. It was sufficient fore most people and the car was very successful.

Linea is selling pretty well ( may be not as well as the ANHC) and Honda would ignore it only at its own risk.
@amit - I dont think the benchmark came with the SX4- as Linea had released in International markets at the same time with better features like dualogic gear box etc- but i do agree that Honda City did follow suit when they saw that the SX4 was giving them some serious competition with more VFM factor- which is what I was telling srinvasap and crazyro so long! Honda just hasnt learnt to price its cars properly - they have just luckily made a name for themselves which is why people still buy them even though they reridculusly over priced. And as far as Fiat Linea goes- they had to introduce Blue and Me and Airbags anyway because they have to make a name for themselves. So I wouldnt call that 'following suit' as you did! Anyways, hope you do agree on the fact that Hond ars are just not VFM and Honda needs to do something about it- but as lng as thii sales are going -I dont they care and in the end if good VFM cars dont sell the Indian public will be the losers as they will be foced to chose the costly cars.

@rajneesh - I totally forgot to mention that point to crazyro- what do you call the 77bhp puny hatchback engine in the previous Honda City- it was well received wasnt it? So you cant criticise the Linea engine like that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
@amit- That's a very good post, you have rightly pointed out the sudden kindness shown by all auto makers in providing not so common before features on their cars.
It aint sudden kindness - Fiat will have anyway had to put the features asit had to build its image- it looks like Honda and by extension Ford were the only companies to realise that they were a bit stingy in giving features for the money they took for so many years. Honda hasnt seem to have learnt yet with the Jazz.

HONDA

Last edited by Technocrat : 16th June 2009 at 16:56.
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Old 16th June 2009, 16:56   #83
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Why did they not provide this in even their top end Palio then?

And lets not talk about international variants they all have to provide this as a mandatory equipment.

What Amit has posted is right it all started with SX4 in the C segment & Linea wouldn't have come with Blue & me If Fiat had as good a brand recognition as Honda in India.
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Old 16th June 2009, 17:00   #84
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The sales figures thread has become a major Honda - Fiat fight thread! Going overboard guys!
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Old 16th June 2009, 17:02   #85
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Linea is not underpowered at all. It has nice pull and should be sufficient for spirited driving. Much same (if not better) than NHC.

My Linea (P) pulled easily in 2nd gear @ 20kmph with 6 adults on board. No sweat!
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Old 16th June 2009, 17:03   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
Both the cars are good. One will sell more then the other. Sometimes there are reasons other then product that decides sales. For whatever reasons, Honda has managed to create a brand image in our country while Fiat tried and failed. In any case, Fiat is no angel. If they were selling as much as Honda does, they would never bring in Blue&Me in their cars so soon. It's always competition that forces you to improve your product and standards.

- If SX4 didn't have steering mounted controls, City, Linea, i20 wouldn't have given it.

- If SX4 didn't offer ABS and Airbags, Honda would never have given these features in their new City. Neither would Fiat offer them in the Linea and nor would Ford upgrade their Fiesta with ABS and Airbags. And ironically, if Maruti could manage to sell their cars easily in the C segment, they would never have offered ABS and Airbags in the SX4 in the first place!

- This applies to all sectors. Until a few months back, Fortune Hotel at Vashi had pathetic service. I have gone there about 5 times in the last 15 days and the service standards have dramatically improved. Why the sudden change of heart? Sheraton is slated to open in Vashi very soon.
You have managed to convey a lot in a short post. The SX4 had to packin the features to match the competetion and the Linea has forced the Fiesta to drop prices to 5.5L (mum - del) for the limited eddtion version with stuff thrown in as well. Linea has upped the VFM game and actually put the Honda in to premium overprized territory. If Linea manges to sell in decent numbers and to maintain fair bit of reliablity and quality then It will definately eat into the honda share. The civic though a great car is a touch too close to the city in pricing (not that the Civic is priced high but the city is stratosperic, as is the Jazz.) The earlier Accord and the previous city were the best priced hondas till date.

I guess localization plays a part, and Fiat is scoring a lot due to extensive planning before the lauch. If the grand Punto does well, the effect will ruboff further on the linea.

Would bet on Jazz + City numbers being quite close to the Grand Punto + Linea numbers in about 12 months time with the inflection point taking the trend into fiat territory.
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Old 16th June 2009, 17:08   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
@amit - I dont think the benchmark came with the SX4
In India the benchmark did come with SX4.

Quote:
as Linea had released in International markets at the same time with better features like dualogic gear box etc-
Yes but did Fiat offer the duologic gearbox in India? Of course, it's not entirely their fault. The market for A/T's is still limited here.

Quote:
they have just luckily made a name for themselves which is why people still buy them even though they reridculusly over priced.
I don't agree that they have luckily managed to create a name for themselves. Except for the NHC, the City range of cars have been fantastic.

Quote:
And as far as Fiat Linea goes- they had to introduce Blue and Me and Airbags anyway because they have to make a name for themselves.
Exactly. If they were established in the market, would they offer Blue&Me?

Quote:
I dont they care and in the end if good VFM cars dont sell the Indian public will be the losers as they will be foced to chose the costly cars.
Agree with you 1000% on this.
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Old 16th June 2009, 17:10   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Why did they not provide this in even their top end Palio then?

And lets not talk about international variants they all have to provide this as a mandatory equipment.

What Amit has posted is right it all started with SX4 in the C segment & Linea wouldn't have come with Blue & me If Fiat had as good a brand recognition as Honda in India.

If
is a big word- so as you said, Fiat did not have that good a brand recognition so the situation does change doesn't it? And after all top end safety features like ABS and airbags come at a price- hence you cant expect it in a Palio- its like saying why there isnt any airbags in alto or a star or Indica Xeta for that matter! The Indian public majority cannot pay for safety features like that so the market had to wait until a certain time when demand for international cars increases (ie in 2007) and Fiat was released in 2009 to keep up with the race with the Linea. And after all somebody had to start the whole race and who would be better than the first car company in India- maruti to start the trend?
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Old 16th June 2009, 17:15   #89
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If I remember correctly, the erstwhile Palio GTX and the old 1.9 D had airbags and ABS. I do not think they sold in good numbers vis-a-vis the other variants.

Yes, Fiat had tried to move the game forward when they introduced Palio, but things did not happen as they had expected.

But, I agree with what Amit says. SX4 moved the game on in the mid size sedan section, and Honda and Fiat followed suit.
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Old 16th June 2009, 17:18   #90
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I personally feel that the Linea has been a disappointment. ANHC is a horribly overpriced car, and if the Linea cannot beat that, it's a shortcoming for the Linea.

Also, I do not buy the "Linea is cheaper than the City" argument.
If I do a quick comparison between Emotion pk (petrol) vs City S, for 1.5 lakh extra I definitely get a faster car (even if marginally) and a more reliable brand etc. IMHO, the novelty of things like Blue and Me go down fast.
Why would I go for the Linea? 1 lakh can be easily recovered during resale itself.
The Linea would have been a better choice if it was 50k-1L cheaper, or if it gave you an engine faster than the Honda.

Most people I know, snub you when you tell them that you own a Fiat.That is how bad the Fiat brand name is. For most Indians, Fiat represents "socialist India of 1980s" and Honda stands for "India shining of 90s and beyond". You just cannot replace that.

P.S. I love Fiat cars, I own a Palio and I haven't been a fan of either the NHC or the ANHC. I loved the OHC. I just feel that Fiat fails at business.
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