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Old 16th June 2009, 17:29   #91
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Originally Posted by vineethvazhayil View Post
The sales figures thread has become a major Honda - Fiat fight thread! Going overboard guys!
Not really- even though I sparked of the whole thing on account of an 'Analysis' on why Honda is eye washing the public and eating into sales of other cars on an unfair account that they dont offer quality VFM cars- I think that thing should be extensively debated upon in this analysis thread on the account of Linea sales dipping to 901 cars in May from a strong 1607 cars in March.

@amit:I meant luckily honda entered the market as a single company in that segment hence making a name for themselves after years of maintaining popularity before Fiesta its first competitor entered the same segment.- It was lucky to be first- you might have noticed that from the first the City group of cars were never offering much features (the features werent known to public until much more feature rich cars like Fiesta were released so I think Ford started the whole thing)- but Honnda maintained its stingy feature-less cars maintaining the car sales nos on the once earned brand image- nothing more.

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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
I personally feel that the Linea has been a disappointment. ANHC is a horribly overpriced car, and if the Linea cannot beat that, it's a shortcoming for the Linea.

Also, I do not buy the "Linea is cheaper than the City" argument.
If I do a quick comparison between Emotion pk (petrol) vs City S, for 1.5 lakh extra I definitely get a faster car (even if marginally) and a more reliable brand etc. IMHO, the novelty of things like Blue and Me go down fast.
Why would I go for the Linea? 1 lakh can be easily recovered during resale itself.
The Linea would have been a better choice if it was 50k-1L cheaper, or if it gave you an engine faster than the Honda.

Most people I know, snub you when you tell them that you own a Fiat.That is how bad the Fiat brand name is. For most Indians, Fiat represents "socialist India of 1980s" and Honda stands for "India shining of 90s and beyond". You just cannot replace that.

P.S. I love Fiat cars, I own a Palio and I haven't been a fan of either the NHC or the ANHC. I loved the OHC. I just feel that Fiat fails at business.
You are again maintaining the fact that faster and over powered cars are the only things that indian public need- hence your dissappointing dissappointment with the Linea! What with so many accidents every day due to overspeeding who needs over powered engines (to go terribly fast for the thrill of it) and which come nearly equal on fuel economy as 'underpowered ones' and yet pay a premium for it? Be realistic- I bet if the Indian public are more aware of the Linea, the Honda City wouldn't stand a chance. And on the account of resale I think the Lineas resale will go up in the near future helped by its sibling the Grande Punto from tomorrow. The Linea will come into the limelight and Fiat will lose its 80's brand image (I dont think that image exists anymore- you might be exaggerating a bit). The Linea if you didnt notice is the cheapest car in its segment and I dont think Fiat has to go bankrupt just to earn itself a name against a riduculously overpriced car like you said so about the ANHC.

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Last edited by Technocrat : 16th June 2009 at 17:43.
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Old 16th June 2009, 17:54   #92
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You are arguing just for the heck of it, anyways

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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post

If
is a big word- so as you said, Fiat did not have that good a brand recognition so the situation does change doesn't it? And after all top end safety features like ABS and airbags come at a price- hence you cant expect it in a Palio- its like saying why there isnt any airbags in alto or a star

A star does have Air bags that too two of them. The Swift from day one has a variant with all safety features like ABS & Airbags.

Lets talk about C segment, Why didnt Fiat Sienna & then Petra didnt sport them?

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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
The Indian public majority cannot pay for safety features like that
There is a difference between can not & would not.

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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
so the market had to wait until a certain time when demand for international cars increases (ie in 2007) and Fiat was released in 2009 to keep up with the race with the Linea.
Why didnt they provide this even as an option for the all new Palio in 2007?

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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
And after all somebody had to start the whole race and who would be better than the first car company in India- maruti to start the trend?
So you say that Maruti being the leaders are expected to start a trend but yet are debating with all those who say Maruti started it all. Make up your mind.
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Old 16th June 2009, 18:23   #93
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Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Why did they not provide this in even their top end Palio then?

And lets not talk about international variants they all have to provide this as a mandatory equipment.

What Amit has posted is right it all started with SX4 in the C segment & Linea wouldn't have come with Blue & me If Fiat had as good a brand recognition as Honda in India.
Interestingly, Honda was the 1st in C segment to launch a contemporary model (not several years old Ford Escort, Opel Astra etc etc) with the OHC. Forced, Mitsubishi to launch the then contemporary Lancer. Followed by Skoda with the Octavia (turbo-charged diesel, compared to the underpowered Lancer diesel etc), and the list goes on...
So, definitely competition is good - otherwise every company will milk its monopoly in the market segment ...
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Old 16th June 2009, 20:01   #94
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Originally Posted by deepakhon View Post
But, I agree with what Amit says. SX4 moved the game on in the mid size sedan section, and Honda and Fiat followed suit.
This is only of academic interest, but still related to this discussion, Fiat also introduced ABS and Airbags for the first time on Sienna in C-segment

I think, it was called Sienna Maestro.

BTW, why are we discussing it here on this car sales thread? Isn't this topic already beaten till death on several other threads? I am out of this one.

Last edited by RX135 : 16th June 2009 at 20:02.
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Old 16th June 2009, 20:56   #95
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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
You are again maintaining the fact that faster and over powered cars are the only things that indian public need- hence your dissappointing dissappointment with the Linea!
It is widely known that F.E. and reliable customer service tops an average Indian customer's priorities while buying a car. The city is as efficient as the Line and let us not talk about reliable A.S.S.
Even if these two factors were equal for both cars, the City comes with a bigger engine and a more "hip" brand name.


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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
What with so many accidents every day due to overspeeding who needs over powered engines (to go terribly fast for the thrill of it)
If this argument was true, we would all be driving Reva and bicycles.

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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
Be realistic- I bet if the Indian public are more aware of the Linea
I personally know 4 cases where people moved away from the Linea to City/SX4 because it is a "Fiat". One of them made his choice against the Linea because he would have felt "ashamed" to tell his Dad that he bought a "Fiat".

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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
the Honda City wouldn't stand a chance. And on the account of resale I think the Lineas resale will go up in the near future helped by its sibling the Grande Punto from tomorrow.
Speculations! No body knows the future.
I don't think that most of those who are spending 8-10L on a car, like the idea of buying a car hoping that the company would do well in the future.


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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
The Linea will come into the limelight and Fiat will lose its 80's brand image (I dont think that image exists anymore- you might be exaggerating a bit).
I'll tell you how bad the brand image is. If you tell 10 prospective Swift DDiS customers that it is a Fiat engine, at least 4 would back off.

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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
The Linea if you didnt notice is the cheapest car in its segment and I dont think Fiat has to go bankrupt just to earn itself a name against a riduculously overpriced car like you said so about the ANHC.
(1)Honda's perceived 'core competency' in India is: "Luxurious cars, reliable, great A.S.S., great FE, great safety, instant head turner, "tashan" ...."
(2)Fiat's: Unreliable, "Khatara", old, unfashionable, fuel guzzler, nightmarish A.S.S.....

The fact is the Honda can be credit for their accomplishments in India. They earned themselves this perception, and now they are reaping the benefits.
Fiat is solely responsible for it's bad perception and they need to take whatever measures necessary to undo their doings. As I see it, that perception is changing but the change is extremely slow.
Fiat has a niche following.The Linea doesn't cater to the needs of the dedicated Fiat fans. For a large number, among others, it is merely an option not be taken seriously.
I don't think that a bunch of European stiffs, walking around in suits, have enough creativity to solve this problem either (mods, please excuse if this sounded racist).
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Old 17th June 2009, 01:11   #96
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Most of the people here even those who bought Honda city know that Honda cars are overpriced they think they are the Bentleys of the Indian middle class so they can ask any price they want even if it means raising the price of CRV by lacks or stopping the import of a product .


I also agree that jazz and Honda city are over priced by at least 20 % each ,they also lacks must have features , but then comparison to Linea is not justified


Average car buyers cannot manipulate the pricing , it has to be decided by markets if Honda sells 3600 units at this price with no features at all then this is the right price of the car , I cant say that those 3600 people knew nothing about car and the 900 people who bought Linea knew almost everything (people are usually smarter then we think )


Cmon guys every body wants a Honda with Linea's features and Linea's pricing ,There must be something with Honda that after u know they are charging you crib ,you cry , but still pay through your nose but still buy a Honda


I dont like Honda City , but if i have a choice between Linea and and ANHC , I will go for Honda city , I will Ignore that i dont have Fog lamps
I dont have alloys Cause that i can always Fit after wards


But what i cannot forget is the thought in my mind , That if i buy a Linea
I might have to wait for Spares for a few days ,I cannot live with the thought that after buying Linea if i have to sell it some day and i get offer of 1.5 lacks for which u can sell a same model MARUTI ALTO easier then selling My Linea ( i am not saying this will Happen Again but this can never Happen with a Honda This happened With Fiat Owners Of whom one was my cousin , one who got a Palio for 5 lacks and sold for 55000


You cant just start a realistic Discussion without looking at results of last 10 years what Fiat has done with its customers and Honda has done with theres Honda does sell those 3600 citiy's at 1.5 lacks higher because of the marque of a brand they have made City in last 10 years


I don't like Honda Personally i agree they over charge , But then in the end Markets are superior to YOU ME AND THEM and if at 3600 they says Honda City Rules then i am a Fool By not Accepting it
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Old 17th June 2009, 13:41   #97
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I am now keen on knowing the FIAT sales for the month of June and July due to GP and GM sales for the month of June due to its Bakruptcy issues.
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Old 18th June 2009, 10:26   #98
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Yes, I know that i paid ANHC premium because i have no options. There are no alternatives, NO choice as i said many times earlier.....Had it been in the range of Accord, i wouldn't go with Honda there as i have some other options...Simple, i am not a Honda fan and i won't promise that i will buy only Honda cars in future...

But now with the budget of 10Lacs, i didn't see any other alternatives...ANHC was the best fit and i am happy with it. I have no regrets and i am not fanatic too...

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Old 18th June 2009, 10:43   #99
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But now with the budget of 10Lacs, i didn't see any other alternatives...ANHC was the best fit and i am happy with it. I have no regrets and i am not fanatic too...
How about Linea, Fiesta???
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Old 18th June 2009, 10:46   #100
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Yes - I had tested Linea/Fiesta/Verna/Optra Magnum.

My choice was AT+Petrol, Refines Performance, Good Brand Value, Sales Support and Resale Value [I am not going to keep this forever, i will sell it someday].

With above parameters, i tested all cars available in that range and picked up ANHC.
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Old 18th June 2009, 11:54   #101
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Mods, lets please close this thread. Its heading no where but a ANHC V/s others discussion. Should't this remain a Sales chart thread?
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Old 18th June 2009, 12:28   #102
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Both the cars are good. One will sell more then the other. Sometimes there are reasons other then product that decides sales. For whatever reasons, Honda has managed to create a brand image in our country while Fiat tried and failed. In any case, Fiat is no angel. If they were selling as much as Honda does, they would never bring in Blue&Me in their cars so soon. It's always competition that forces you to improve your product and standards.

- If SX4 didn't have steering mounted controls, City, Linea, i20 wouldn't have given it.

- If SX4 didn't offer ABS and Airbags, Honda would never have given these features in their new City. Neither would Fiat offer them in the Linea and nor would Ford upgrade their Fiesta with ABS and Airbags. And ironically, if Maruti could manage to sell their cars easily in the C segment, they would never have offered ABS and Airbags in the SX4 in the first place!

- This applies to all sectors. Until a few months back, Fortune Hotel at Vashi had pathetic service. I have gone there about 5 times in the last 15 days and the service standards have dramatically improved. Why the sudden change of heart? Sheraton is slated to open in Vashi very soon.
Excellent Post! Competition is a very good thing for us consumers. Until the Vista was launched, I would have never ever even considered buying a Tata car. But I certainly want an Indica/Indigo in the market!! It will keep the competition on its toes.

PS: I now have a lot of respect for Vista - Tata have humbled me. If I were looking to buy a hatch now, good chance it would be Vista Quadrajet!

Last edited by Equus : 18th June 2009 at 12:30.
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Old 18th June 2009, 13:50   #103
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automobile sector.pdf

Interesting paper from Centrum evaluating the auto sector. Sorry if I have gone at little OT.
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Old 18th June 2009, 13:54   #104
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Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
Interestingly, Honda was the 1st in C segment to launch a contemporary model (not several years old Ford Escort, Opel Astra etc etc) with the OHC. Forced, Mitsubishi to launch the then contemporary Lancer. Followed by Skoda with the Octavia (turbo-charged diesel, compared to the underpowered Lancer diesel etc), and the list goes on...
So, definitely competition is good - otherwise every company will milk its monopoly in the market segment ...
NOPE The Honda was not the 1st, rather it was actually Maruti when in introduced the Exteem 1.3 and Daewoo when in introduced the Cielo.

Both at that point of time were comtemprary models. Exteem was the first car that came close to c segment cars of todays age in styling, features, refinement and quality. in 1995-96 Cielo from Daewoo brought MPFI technology, Auto Transmission, Airbags, Rear Seat centre console, rear defoggers etc for the first time into cars in India and was then a currently sold car worldwide. the OHC was actually feature wise quite inferior to the Cielo and the immeditately launced Lancer. so would not credit honda for this. Infact the honda city models introduced in India first had an interior roof that was quite like the older Fiats etc which instead of the moulded roofs that are seen in todays cars had the stiched rod assembly of the padminis and ambys.

Agree with you the Turbo charges and stuff with Skoda etc. But that said the Lancer Diesel was a good car in its time. Have driven it over 1000 kms in about 4 days and it was fun to rev the engine, and give the car a go due to the chassis dynamics.
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Old 18th June 2009, 14:35   #105
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Oh my my, autocarcr against the world! The brand zealotry for FIAT on this forum is extreme fun to watch. *runs off and gets the popcorn*

More on topic...

The Civic seems to have had it with the more VFM Altis kicking it's tail. Maybe this will force Honda to launch the facelift here? Internationally, it comes with quite a bit more kit as standard at the same price. They'll probably wait for the Yen to come back to reasonable levels though.
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