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Old 25th May 2016, 17:28   #76
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Default Re: Toyota future plans for India

I don't blame Toyota or any other auto maker completely. For them its business, they did their best in making and providing support to vehicles that meet the current norms in the country, with an expectation that they would get enough notice when there is a change.

However, in the current scenario, the rules came in overnight and its not enough for any car manufacturer to change their engine/transmission to meet the rule. I'd expect NGT and other bodies to provide a roadmap to the auto manufacturers and give them enough notice about implementing better pollution control systems, safety features etc. If the auto makers do not comply then they are out.

The NGT ban on diesel vehicles is so similar to the liquor ban in Kerala during the previous government rule.
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Old 25th May 2016, 17:52   #77
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Good riddance to them. They clearly have an arrogant, patronizing attitude, so they can take a hike.

India will be one of the top 3 auto markets in the world in the coming decades, so they aren't doing anybody a favor by being here. Like Apple, they will be back soon with a chastened attitude.

The only unfortunate thing in this episode is that a large proportion of Indians (the ones that are filled with self-loathing and feel some strange moral guilt at the mere hint of anything nationalistic) will come out to defend Toyota and make excuses for them.
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Old 25th May 2016, 18:00   #78
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The ban is pointless and those saying manufacturers should comply to new laws fail to see that the ruling just bans based on displacement and not actual emission test data and engine efficiency. A mediocre engine under 2000cc is allowed to sell but not an efficient engine which may run more frugal and with less emissions while being 2l+

I also think for mahindra to launch engines with 1990cc immediately after the ban shows they knew about it and possibly lobbied to get a such a ruling passed to hurt their chief competitor the innova in an unfair manner. This is the company which took 6 years to launch the bike Mojo. I wouldn't give a clean chit to NGT as they seem to be on a ban spree rather actually coming down on each and every vehicle that's polluting and should be off the road.

Too bad is Toyota moves out or closes shop. Their cars are actually the ones still running in very acceptable condition even after a decade and lakhs of kms.
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Old 25th May 2016, 18:22   #79
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Default Re: Toyota future plans for India

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Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
The ban is pointless and those saying manufacturers should comply to new laws fail to see that the ruling just bans based on displacement and not actual emission data and engine efficiency. A mediocre engine under 2000cc is allowed to sell but not an efficient engine which may run more frugal and with less emissions while being 2l+

I also think for mahindra to launch engines with 1990cc immediately after the ban shows they knew about it and possibly lobbied to get a such a ruling passed to hurt their chief competitor the innova in an unfair manner. This is the company which took 6 years to launch the bike Mojo. I wouldn't give a clean chit to NGT as they seem to be on a ban spree rather actually coming down on each and every vehicle that's polluting and should be off the road.
Fuel driven cars are beginning to get banned in Europe, starting with Norway. It won't be long before others followed suit. Toyota is adjusting there, so are the other manufacturers despite mild protests. Time they do it here. Can't really expect business environment in any country to remain conducive for them always. Time to adapt, or lose the game.

However, not taking away the "fact" that these particular judgments targeting a certain class of vehicles are attributable to lobbying by Maruti and Mahindra than on any environmental concerns.

Indian automakers' motto it seems "If you can't make better cars, take out the competition".

Last edited by TD_GHY : 25th May 2016 at 18:40.
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Old 25th May 2016, 18:58   #80
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Default Re: Toyota future plans for India

http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...la-401849.aspx

Looks like the next gen Corolla won't be getting the diesel engine.

Though am against the 2000cc diesel ban, in this case, am seriously hoping that Toyota launched the Corolla Hybrid here in place of the diesel as it makes more sense.

And for those people who feel that Toyota is arrogant and should step out of the market...
Please. This is one of the few companies for whom success doesn't get into their head. If they feel that investments are getting riskier, it is because they are.
One can say, that companies has to adapt to the markets and all, but in this case it is almost directionless without any concrete regulatory plans.

Like @Xeno said, i don't really want to pat Mahindra's back for launching the 1.99l engines so soon after the ban. They knew the ruling beforehand unlike other companies who were caught unawares and there is definitely some dirty business behind the top three automobile companies in lobbying.

Sub 4 meter 'small car', subsidies for 'mild' hybrids and the fixation with 2000cc all point to a number of top manufacturers.

Last edited by DicKy : 25th May 2016 at 18:59.
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Old 25th May 2016, 19:26   #81
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Originally Posted by TD_GHY View Post
Fuel driven cars are beginning to get banned in Europe, starting with Norway. It won't be long before others followed suit. Toyota is adjusting there, so are the other manufacturers despite mild protests. Time they do it here. Can't really expect business environment in any country to remain conducive for them always. Time to adapt, or lose the game.

However, not taking away the "fact" that these particular judgments targeting a certain class of vehicles are attributable to lobbying by Maruti and Mahindra than on any environmental concerns.

Indian automakers' motto it seems "If you can't make better cars, take out the competition".

Yes the rulings in those countries are fine and not based on displacement. If you notice they have CO2 brackets and emission brackets to tax the cars and not taxed displacement wise unlike here.

Coming back to topic,

- if all diesels were banned it would be fair, let the dirty sooty fuel be banned for all.

- if emission tests were extremely stringent that only those who pass them can sell their vehicles, is also fair. If Toyota fails such an test they have no right to complain.

-largest contributors of diesel emissions is from trucks, locomotives and gensets. NGT does nothing about it, no plans to do so.

- current ruling mentions no measured emission data, bans above a very selected displacement figure. Highly suspicious.




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And for those people who feel that Toyota is arrogant and should step out of the market...
Please. This is one of the few companies for whom success doesn't get into their head. If they feel that investments are getting riskier, it is because they are.
One can say, that companies has to adapt to the markets and all, but in this case it is almost directionless without any concrete regulatory plans.

Sub 4 meter 'small car', subsidies for 'mild' hybrids and the fixation with 2000cc all point to a number of top manufacturers.
These particular category definition leads to India specific cars which crush like sardine tin cans on collision. While the better products developed and refined elsewhere will remain out of hands.

I'm honestly looking towards a hybrid corolla/Camry as my running is very low and I'll never require a diesel vehicle. Yet I feel this ruling is particularly against Toyota & Tata, both whose well selling workhorses have a displacement above 2.0l. No kudos for mahindra for a new 1.99 engine which doesn't make any difference to the harm it will do to the environment.
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Old 25th May 2016, 20:48   #82
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Originally Posted by TD_GHY View Post
Indian automakers' motto it seems "If you can't make better cars, take out the competition".

Adding fuel to this conspiracy theory is probably also going to give us a glimpse into the future judgements of the govt/ quasi govt agencies. As shared earlier on Team BHP in the below thread, Mahindra 'aptly' pioneered India's first automotive shredding plant.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...equipment.html (Mahindra to build India's first automobile shredding plant with recycling equipment)

I suspect by this time next year, we will have a constructed plan for all 'banned' old cars and both parties will be quite happy being the first movers! Like it or not, I think these plans are here to stay and worryingly, spread!
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Old 25th May 2016, 21:26   #83
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Default Re: Toyota future plans for India

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Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
These particular category definition leads to India specific cars which crush like sardine tin cans on collision. While the better products developed and refined elsewhere will remain out of hands.

I'm honestly looking towards a hybrid corolla/Camry as my running is very low and I'll never require a diesel vehicle. Yet I feel this ruling is particularly against Toyota & Tata, both whose well selling workhorses have a displacement above 2.0l. No kudos for mahindra for a new 1.99 engine which doesn't make any difference to the harm it will do to the environment.
Yeah, even the tough muscular ones.

Looks like Toyota is stopping with the small diesel engines altogether. Looks like the next gen Corolla will be here with hybrid engines, if not soon. It's based on the same 1800cc that the present Corolla has, so it wouldn't be too hard for Toyota to launch it here.

Makes me remember, almost half a decade back when Toyota was questioned why Lexus doesn't have diesel anymore and why they are not developing any new small diesel engines for cars.
The then Toyota chief said that Toyota feels diesel doesn't have much of a scope after a decade in passenger cars due to emission norms. This was the time VW was going all guns for diesel tech and I was aghast that Toyota was missing out on the diesel wave.

From all the recent incidents globally and nationally, realized
Toyota's prediction came true.
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Old 25th May 2016, 22:50   #84
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Originally Posted by methecupid View Post
Mahindra 'aptly' pioneered India's first automotive shredding plant.
One lucky move may be, but then they also had the 1.99L diesel engine ready as well in advance for the ban. Putting both together, it is tough not to suspect that Mahindra wasn't aware of these developments in advance.
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Old 25th May 2016, 23:09   #85
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Default Re: Toyota future plans for India

This is the first casualty from India's wavering automobile policy (if any) that keeps changing every week.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/52426000.cms

Their bread and butter model is the Innova that keeps Toyota going. And they have just launched the Crysta. The NGT restriction for Kerala State not to register 2000 cc plus diesel vehicles, puts a cap on the Crysta sales in Kerala, where numerous Innovas are used as tourist taxis. Many operators would have preferred to switch over to this new model. Apart from the taxi trade, we have numerous private users who have faith in this brand.

The Supreme Court order for the 2000cc plus diesel engines in the NCR remains effective. So foolish in practicality indeed ! The 1995 cc ISZ 2000 DSL diesel engine (dreaming of its BS IV version, though not manufactured anymore) qualifies to be registered as non polluting vehicle.

With all these developments, we are showing our inconsistencies galore in policy matters to investors from abroad. At a time when we need foreign investments to grow and move ahead, these bolts from the blue are unprecedented. There was earlier the 4000 mm plus / minus definition with engines 1200 cc (petrol) and 1500 cc (diesel) for small and non-small cars that too came as a googly. The budget was presented and within a month its provisions became effective.

Any developed economy does not have such inconsistencies in policy matters. Policies are decided on a long term basis and seamlessly integrate into the newer amendments, with adequate time provided to the industry to comply with.

We need to be more matured and we need to act with vision and foresight. Those people who do not have an iota of knowledge about the finer aspects of automobiles are at the helm. They just get driven to their homes and workplaces by chauffeurs and beyond that, the automobile is a villain in their scheme of things and perception.
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Old 25th May 2016, 23:21   #86
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Toyota seriously needs to start respecting India. They have been treating us an unimportant market for a while now and when things become tough, they are crying foil. Whilst i agree the ban on only 2000cc + engines is illogical and the ban should be across all diesel engines, i do feel its time for the big and mighty like Toyota to adapt. Having a problem with the policy is fine and complaining about lobbying is also acceptable (it probably does happen) but to threaten to leave India/not invest further in new models is ridiculous !! Honda & Hyundai don't even have cars in the MPV segment and they are very happy in India.
Toyota wants to sell us some old third world stuff in the hatchback and entry level sedan segment and expects to see volumes !!
This by the way is coming from an owner of 2 current generation Corollas !!
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Old 25th May 2016, 23:28   #87
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Toyota seriously needs to start respecting India.
On the contrary, India needs to get sensible and have a long term vision to tackle pollution. Have you seen smoke spewing out of a India taxi with a 1400 cc engine? The 2000cc ban is nothing but absurd. Emission/pollution has got to do more with the level of technology used in an engine than the cc of the engine. I can assured you that an outdated India 1400 cc engine will pollute more than a moden 2.5 liter common rail engine built to Euro V or Euro VI norms.
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Old 25th May 2016, 23:32   #88
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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Toyota headquarters is now re-looking into it's Indian operations and investments, according to Toyota Kirloskar Motor Vice-Chairman and Whole-time Director, Mr Shekar Viswanathan.

Although he categorically denied about shutting shop anytime soon, he clearly said that Toyota is not too keen on launching new models in the Indian market anymore.


Financial Express
No offence.. mods please do not ban me for the choice of my words..

This is absolute sheer bullshit and non-sensKe from these firms who say they put investments on hold coz of NGT banning. When in their home country they go to any extent to Innovate and bring in top tier technology, what prevents them from doing it here?

When M&M could respond, why not M-B, Toyota or others. They definitely have much more R&D budget and ready stock of existing designs to tap into.

Thank you for reading my Rant!!
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Old 25th May 2016, 23:50   #89
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On the contrary, India needs to get sensible and have a long term vision to tackle pollution. Have you seen smoke spewing out of a India taxi with a 1400 cc engine? The 2000cc ban is nothing but absurd. Emission/pollution has got to do more with the level of technology used in an engine than the cc of the engine. I can assured you that an outdated India 1400 cc engine will pollute more than a moden 2.5 liter common rail engine built to Euro V or Euro VI norms.

I think you haven't read my post properly ! I agree that the ban is illogical.
But having said that, this kind of childish behavior is not expected from Toyota. Business environments change and adapting is the name of the game. Honda got killed for a good 3 years when they didn't have diesels and the governments ridiculous policies made diesel so much cheaper than petrol. Also if you think about it, everything has to begin at some level and this diesel ban may be extended to all sized engines sometime in the future. Sure the government needs to come out and give some logical reasons for banning 2000cc plus engines and that they have failed to do so. Even if they came up with an official timeline for banning the rest of the diesel engines, this should get a lot of angry people to shut up.
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Old 26th May 2016, 00:10   #90
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Default Re: Toyota future plans for India

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Originally Posted by nik_kapur View Post
Toyota seriously needs to start respecting India. They have been treating us an unimportant market for a while now and when things become tough, they are crying foil. Honda & Hyundai don't even have cars in the MPV segment and they are very happy in India.
Toyota wants to sell us some old third world stuff in the hatchback and entry level sedan segment and expects to see volumes !!
This by the way is coming from an owner of 2 current generation Corollas !!
So basically Toyota should not get any international products for India? The Corolla, Innova and Fortuner are not India specific as they don't meet our regulations. Corolla is above 4m and 1.8L engine, Innova and Fortuner both have greater than 2000cc diesel engines.

In effect we Indians just deserve small cars under 4m with reduced engine capacity as only those meet our norms.

Since we are expecting Toyota to adapt to local norms, then we should not expect any SUV's or MPV's or premium offerings. It's just best to sell small cars with small engine capacities since only those fit in local norms.
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