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Old 23rd June 2009, 13:14   #16
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There is not much I can usefully add to this discussion, but perhaps we should not be so pessimistic. The wheels of progress move at an agonizing pace in this country, but they are starting to speed up.
There have been improvements and there have also been fallouts and an increase in corruption, but I feel in the end we will come out on top.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 13:25   #17
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Some views here are the dilemas faced by any growing individual household / business / community / society or country

For any sort of growth, how to finance the growth is a critical question. it can be done in several ways

1. from the available resources or savings. In India the government savings are negative. there is always a deficit in terms of government income vs expenditure. more than 60% of government income goes towards salaries of government employee. it is also important as we as a nation expect government to take care of everything for us. so no money available as saving for financing growth

2. growth can be achieved through deficit financing i.e. borrowing from the future. too much of deficit financing (=printing notes) will make the economy collapse as government and currency would loose trust and hence valuation also

3. Growth can be financed by domestic borrowing. but too much would again result in a situation similar to point no 2.

4. external borrowing (from world bank, IMF, governments etc) is another option. Again too much of it would make our governemnt vlunarable and result in must comply situations which is not good for our independence and governance

5. the best option is Public Private partnership which is currently being followed in India to fund infrasturure projects. Private entreprises will also need to look at profitability of the investment and hence would need return from investment in the form of Tolls.

Government is working overtime to expand the tax base and tax collections. But the direct and indirect tax collections during last one year has declined due to slow down in global economy and increasing costs. bringing the black money stacked in foreign banks is another way of un-locking the assets and enlarging the tax base.

There is a saying that we have to suffer for better tomorrow for our children. We all do that when it comes to our own family, but many are reluctant to do it when it is for the society/city/state/country. As we are a democracy (= power in numbers) some of these projects would get challenged and hence result in delay as consensus need to be built.

but this is in-evitable if our country has to grow.

This is my personal view, not to demean anyone else's views. as I said each one of us has the right to have his/her own views and power is in numbers.

Last edited by StarVegabond : 23rd June 2009 at 13:28.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 13:42   #18
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Can they do something about the morons coming down the wrong side on 4 lane, 6 lane highways?

Built world class infrastructure and then a bullock cart/tractor comes up the wrong side. Whats the use?
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Old 23rd June 2009, 13:52   #19
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
Can they do something about the morons coming down the wrong side on 4 lane, 6 lane highways?

Built world class infrastructure and then a bullock cart/tractor comes up the wrong side. Whats the use?
That does not mean whe should not build roads isn't it

It seems that in the new project NHAI has deleted the service roads, approach roads, overbridges etc to reduce the financing needed by the private partner and hence toll could be lesser or the period of toll collection could be lower.

this means more such villagers, bullock carts / tractors would come on the road as they have no other means of commuting.

this is unfortunate as far as our fast drivers are concerned, but once again well informed decision by the government.

once again i am not trying to defend this decision, i would also like 6 lanes to be made 8 lanes with proper approach roads, service roads etc,
but it might be a reality in distinct future once. as of now my wish is at least these planned roads be built.

Last edited by StarVegabond : 23rd June 2009 at 13:53.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 14:07   #20
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Originally Posted by mxx View Post
OT but cant help it.
Reading the comments here, this is what i infer. Everyone wants good roads. But no one will pay for it. It is the governments to take care of funding. Beg or borrow , who cares. But dont take it from the citizens, right? No matter how much you earn, you will think a million times before giving a part of it to the government. What a shame.

Here is a fact: Running a country with 1b+ people is not as easy as your 9-5 job and neither is it cheap.

PS: I dont intend to continue discussion on this comment, cos I know I can't change your views.
Also, since the budget in the article is demoninated in Dollars, and not in Indian Rupees, I am sure where the Tax money is going to.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 14:20   #21
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Originally Posted by kpbhatt View Post
pay a visit to the old mum-pune highway in Pimpri-Chinchwad area ( this is a twin city adjacent to Pune) -- you would love the roads made
I was talking about something like this.

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Old 23rd June 2009, 14:39   #22
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
I like the idea mooted to have a infrastructure fund. It would increase funding by the people and also help in bringing down taxes for the people who are contributing to country's growth.
I sometimes wonder where all the Road Tax and the Rs.2 (1 for diesels) cess we pay goes. I am sure the major fraction is going into the Big Black Hole known as the General Fund of India or the State Government coffers.

When are they going to correct the fundamental mistake. What we have are Dual Carriageways and not Motorways. What should be done:

1. The Big Mistake: Universally, there is always a toll free alternative - see all the Bis signs in France! In the UK there is almost invariably an A road running the same route as the M road. This should also take care of all the contra traffic.Make parallel non-toll roads for the local traffic. One lane either way alongside the existing roads is all that you may need.

2. Remove things like cross road links, openings in the roads, and upgrade them to proper motorways.

Hopefully, get rid of the cattle lounging on the roads

Last edited by sgiitk : 23rd June 2009 at 14:40.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 16:45   #23
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Quote:
Hopefully, get rid of the cattle lounging on the roads
that was . Last time i saw a foreigner traveling in an Innova taking pics of a cattle grazing on the median lawn when his car was stopped at a signal. What a shame.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 22:06   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy.S View Post
but perhaps we should not be so pessimistic
but they are starting to speed up.
There have been improvements and there have also been fallouts and an increase in corruption, but I feel in the end we will come out on top.
Are they really speeding up ? I have my doubts. Nobody can come out on top if corruption is so deep rooted.
And the reason for being pessimistic :

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I sometimes wonder where all the Road Tax and the Rs.2 (1 for diesels) cess we pay goes. I am sure the major fraction is going into the Big Black Hole known as the General Fund of India or the State Government coffers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post

Government is working overtime to expand the tax base and tax collections. But the direct and indirect tax collections during last one year has declined due to slow down in global economy and increasing costs. bringing the black money stacked in foreign banks is another way of un-locking the assets and enlarging the tax base.

There is a saying that we have to suffer for better tomorrow for our children. We all do that when it comes to our own family, but many are reluctant to do it when it is for the society/city/state/country. As we are a democracy (= power in numbers) some of these projects would get challenged and hence result in delay as consensus need to be built.

but this is in-evitable if our country has to grow.
My dear friend, what has happened for last 60 years ?

Fact is that the salaried class and tax payers have suffered since long due to the judicial system still being based on what British made for us in British raj. Things have gone from bad to worse everywhere.

Its reality that money is not properly spent in India due to corruption. This is core reality and if we do not attack the root cause i.e. corruption, any number of funds or plans or projects are going futile exercise. The talks have gone long along with promises. What we need is some concrete step to induct some confidence in Indian system, till then all talks are frivolous.

Till we are out of deep rooted problems or rather diseases like corruption and low moral mentality, we are not going to progress.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 22:10   #25
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Something right is happening somewhere I can tell you This is a matter that can be debated till eternity, but the glass would still remain half empty for some or half full for others.

I am proud of what we have achieved, and in spite of all that is wrong in the system we are doing well enough for ourselves. I welcome the step by the government.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 23:12   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Fact is that the salaried class and tax payers have suffered since long due to the judicial system still being based on what British made for us in British raj......
I agree with this. we should never have continued with a system that was designed to keep the natives under control.
However, there is still reason enough to be optimistic.

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I am proud of what we have achieved, and in spite of all that is wrong in the system we are doing well enough for ourselves.....
That is probably the right attitude.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 23:36   #27
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post

My dear friend, what has happened for last 60 years ?

Fact is that the salaried class and tax payers have suffered since long due to the judicial system still being based on what British made for us in British raj. Things have gone from bad to worse everywhere.

Its reality that money is not properly spent in India due to corruption. This is core reality and if we do not attack the root cause i.e. corruption, any number of funds or plans or projects are going futile exercise. The talks have gone long along with promises. What we need is some concrete step to induct some confidence in Indian system, till then all talks are frivolous.

Till we are out of deep rooted problems or rather diseases like corruption and low moral mentality, we are not going to progress.
Dear Friend.

I do not have to list the achievements of India over last 60 years, in fact world is just begining to realize the potential and performance of India.
India was the top economy in th world untill 1500 AD, between 1500-1700 AD india declined to Top 3 position due to several invations and wars.
from 1700-1950, it became one of the bottom most economy in the world.

But most of us are only backward looking, living in the past, try to find fault with what has been done in the past.

We have chosen to be a democracy = power of numbers.
why corruption is high becasue majority of us want it so that we can be more equal among all.

anyways, India is fast growing, This finacial year the number of households in the top 1/4th of the income pyramid is larger (48Million households) than the number of households in the borrom 1/4th (43M households). If one studies the demographics and economic progress of India, then one can realize by 2026, more than 51% of India woudl be middle class (from current 31%).

i do not have to tell the meaning of 51% in a democracy., we are just 17 years away (hopefully)

only thing is that we need to do our jobs properly and contribute to the growth of India. Most importantly ensure that we do things right (without corruption) and teach the same to our children.

Last edited by StarVegabond : 23rd June 2009 at 23:39.
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Old 6th July 2009, 14:53   #28
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Bumped on the thread lately.

In Kerala, the road tax paid is diverted to other Govt. depts. & is also used to pay the salary(& arrears if any) to the employees !

I heard this from a treasury official..!
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Old 6th July 2009, 17:12   #29
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Originally Posted by esteem_lover View Post
I was talking about something like this.

Attachment 151487

Attachment 151488

Attachment 151491
long way to go for this -- we have made a beginning though, however small it might be
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Old 10th July 2009, 05:36   #30
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Apart for others getting employment, the comes out this : We pay many many taxes, innumerable to say the least. Why so costly fuel ? TAX. Why so costly automobiles ? TAX. ...The list goes on.

And one more important thing, for how long you think the road will hold up ? Within two or three years, the quality of road will deteriorate and soon it will become a bad road.

I would consider this not as OT.
How much tax we have to pay man ? List down and think how much tax. The taxpayers are not much and from that itself there are very few honest tax payers. This is ground reality one has to accept and this is the truth. My father is paying hefty income tax, paying for costly fuel, paying for house, etc. Did the government consider than even when we are building house, we are providing employment to others, etc.

We pay too much through our nose. Those who pay know the pain. I believe after paying so much, we deserve good quality fuel, roads atleast in city. Where I stay, literally I can make an Arjun tank rattle more than anything on earth.


After paying so much tax and being disciplined, we are yet to get good approach roads. We are living in the houes from where I am typing in this for around 9 years now. 5 yeas of construction. We have heard that there will be ring road behind our house. We built this property thinking we will have a proper approach road. That road is still not coming up.

Reality is too bad to even think, let alone surviving.
You guys have no idea how much people in other countries pay for taxes. As for me in Canada, about 30% from my income is deducted for income taxes, pension plan and unemployment insurance. And then for the highest tax bracket, they deduct 46% just for income taxes, and after adding the other deductions, you only get about 45% of your gross salary back.

I read somewhere that only 3% of the population in India pays income tax regularly; which is about 34 million people, equal to the entire population of Canada. So where will the Government get their revenue from? Already we are seeing a 6.8% budget deficit this financial year, do you want more?

India needs these infrastructure projects not only for improving the traffic conditions, but also for providing employment to hundreds of thousands of people involved with these projects. Remember, more working people equals greater tax revenues, which will be used for funding these projects and paying back the IMF loans as well.

So overall, the tax burden of the existing taxpayers will at least stay constant if not decrease in the next 5-10 years. Or where else will the Govt. get their money from? Do you want to borrow money from China, Japan or the OPEC countries for building your roads and schools? The only other option is to start a war and as a result kickstart a war economy along with it, something which the Americans have successfully done in the last 100 years or so.

Last edited by sujaylahiri : 10th July 2009 at 05:53.
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