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Old 12th July 2009, 08:59   #16
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Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
1) This can happen with any car especially on discs and iron parts whether is a Maruti , Hyndai , Fiat etc only if iron is involved .


2) GP is already giving 21kmpl in city as reported in some threads by owners so how can you say GP is not giving good economy .Look at i20 is much more expensive than Punto .Look at the fuel efficieny of that CRDI when it comes and compare with Punto's .In Swift DDIS you hear all sorts of rattles , suspension noise you name it Maruti has given in it including poor tyres , claustrophobic interior , less boot space , that pathetic rear seat ,look at the quality of bumper's etc.

3) It is just like saying Swift has less space than a WagonR or Versa !Regarding rubber see the quality of rubber , thickness of sheet metal used , chassis rigidity .Alto Vs Punto joking right
I could talk about other things also but in the end i will say FIAT A.S.S has improved a lot and hope it stays there and gets better only then will we see the rise of Hot powerful cars from FIAT .

4) Also inspite of everything FIAT engines run most cars in India now so their life/ built / design is much robust . In spite of poor sales for long time with palio , petra, seina etc they are still here not running away.
1) The matter here is quality. We have never seen such quality things happening in our Maruti 800 and Baleno. Never, not the driveshaft to say the least. GP is a new car in India ( if my memory serves me good ), so definitely the car cannot be more than 2-3 months old. And if they have this much rust in underbody, this speaks a thing or two about quality of parts. That is what I wanted to indicate.

2) Overall, I wanted to hint at the entire range of engines on offer. If GP is offering very good FE, they compromise on performance. If they offer performance, they compromise on FE. Why cant they come up with a perfect blend like others have ? And the petrol is not going to give good results as far as FE and performance are in discussion. This is not the best combination of body and engine. Swift is in a league of its own when we consider the blend of performance and FE, and this is one of the reasons for its popularity.

3) My point was that Fiat has made some very serious and bad cost cutting moves. That is all what I wanted to indicate. Lets not take things over the board. All my point is that Fiat has made too many cost cutting moves which is not good for Fiat and its image of producing good quality ( atleast the chassis and interior build quality ) cars.

4) Their single engine i.e. SDE is successful that too because others could calibrate better than what Fiat could do. Also others could make it more silent, isint that surprising ? If we take out Swift and Dzire, how many units are selling of that diesel ?
And for the time being, most of the cars sold in India are petrol and they are japanese. Fiat cannot beat this fact.


Overall, the only point I am trying to make here is that with GP, they have made compromise specially due to cost cutting moves. My uncle has 1.9D Palio and let me tell you he told me palio is better built than GP! This is his 8th car and till now he has driven a lot in Saurashtra and A'bad ( read highway driving ).
Moreover the combination of motors + heavy car weight is not good. They are really not in favor of car's image.

And why is Fiat not able to explain why they are not controlling A.S & S. ? Any logical explanation ? What excuse they can give, we are not able to manage ? Means they are not ready to listen to customer. Fiat cars are generally given negative treatment at Tata dealer ships and this is proven. I have personally experienced this. If tata just about barely manages to serve its own cars, how are they able to handle Fiat cars ? Do they have knowledge and infrastructure ?
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Old 12th July 2009, 09:59   #17
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A few well known Fiat-baiting rants aside, this thread does raise pertinent questions. Regarding the topic, though I think (and hope) that the new kids on the block wont be unmitigated disasters, there is nevertheless a breathless feeling that things might very well go the Palio / Uno way.

The only bright sparks I can see for Fiat is the current Global CEO who is more American than Italian and contrary to what most think - the tie up with Tata. Think about it, who would have bought a Fiat in India otherwise?
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Old 12th July 2009, 10:02   #18
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I can see passions rising as they always do in such talks! My reason for the post was only for people to understand that for Fiat to ramp up in such a big way in such a short time will be a stretch - for Fiat, for their vendor base, for their supply chain, for sales and for service. And I wanted to share the history of the cars in India as an actual user. The message I guess is for people to buy with their eyes wide open, knowing that the user experience will have teething troubles. Fiat has done the easy part - spending cash to put in manufacturing capacity. Now is the hard part that it has to accomplish in the other areas. If people buy the cars with their eyes open, and that causes the ramp up to happen a lot slower because many people are not passionate enough about Fiat to take those niggles and the hassles that will inevitably arise, this will actually be doing Fiat a great favour. Even though it is a favor that Fiat management would cry themselves hoarse about not needing.
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Old 12th July 2009, 10:08   #19
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whatever u say guys .....after 5 years and 1.5lac kms in a tata car i do not doubt their service ...the guys at Kamal&Co. (dealer) have been very very helpful but that was only because of good personal relations built over time ..my next car will be a linea and guys trust my word ....everytime i took my car to the service center i saw how staff treats customers it was pathetic but now things have changed the tata guys are doing a good job now .if not upto the mark but yes things have improved and are improving.
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Old 12th July 2009, 10:08   #20
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Originally Posted by typeOnegative View Post
The only bright sparks I can see for Fiat is the current Global CEO who is more American than Italian and contrary to what most think - the tie up with Tata. Think about it, who would have bought a Fiat in India otherwise?
The tie up with Tata is indeed bringing in more sales for Fiat, no doubt about this, but what are the long term effects ?

1) Tata A.S & S. is not having a good reputation. They are having their hands full with Tata cars. Moreover what about Nano, this car is going to be a success as we all know. What will happen then, can Tata handle the rush while bringing up quality of service ? This is quite tough, and if we go by the record books, I am sure they will not be able to manage this much rush.

2) What is the current status of A.S & S. for Fiat cars ? Soon after tata took control over distribution and service, thing were looking rosy, but within an year things are bad again. There are reports of Tata dealerships paying more attention to Tata car and not Fiat. This is attitude in selling car, think about their attitude in servicing. No wonder, somebody complained that diesel engine oil is put in petrol motor. Who will be responsible if things go wrong with greater magnitude ?

The initial short term gain was sales, but later on things might be other way round. What will happen to Fiat cars A.s & S. once Nano is available ? Long term effect might not be good for Fiat.
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Old 12th July 2009, 10:33   #21
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Originally Posted by autocarcr View Post
Within this week of getting my car I already have around 50 people asking me about it (good looks pleanty of features) apart from the 100 others who ogle at it on the road when I drive!
Been there, done that! I was the first in the city with the orange 1.6 GTX in 2001, so I know the feeling. At that time, it was " Sachin's car!!". At least once in their lifetimes, everyone should experience this feeling. For as long as it lasts. Which is the only advantage of being the first set of people to buy the car, I imagine.
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Old 12th July 2009, 10:49   #22
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Ive bought a new Punto,i can live with Tata a.s.s just for the sake of the oppurtunity to live with a brilliant car with a soul.
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Old 12th July 2009, 10:51   #23
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Sawyer, the only people who have problems with FIAT are people who have never owned one. Since you have owned one, your points are wrong, you are here probably under payola from Honda or Hyundai and have come to these hallowed forums to tarnish the image of this great Italian company who give us Maseratis for the price of SEATs, the best customer service north of Ferrari and build quality which will save you when a full cargo container is dropped on you at speed.

BEGONE, INTERLOPER!

Last edited by ImmortalZ : 12th July 2009 at 10:53.
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Old 12th July 2009, 10:56   #24
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Good luck to the thread starter for choosing the i20 CRDi. Its a good car.

However the FIAT after sales is not as bad as it is made out to be. Few things
1) You never really have to visit the service center and the only time you do it for usual oil change and top ups. Their products are really really really sturdy.
2) Things have improved much with a more number of service centres and we NOW have choice. We are not in 2001, where there were only 4 service centers in Mumbai. And I can vouch that it has IMPROVED and if I do not like one I can always take my business elsewhere.
3) The reason for better service now is
3.1) SPARE PART prices have really really fallen (compared to 2001) and they are now one of the cheapest in India (besides Maruti I think)
3.2) Availability of spares has increased tremendously.
3.3) Same as in point 2. More competition.

It has some way to go to be on par with Hyundai but no more horror stories for servicing the cars. At least not for me and a few others that I know of.
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Old 12th July 2009, 10:58   #25
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Interesting thread!

Quote:
when I spent 20 minutes in the showroom and was able to see the car inside out, and walk away without once being accosted by any sales staff.
Most dealerships and sales staff are like that. I went in to see the i20 and the salesperson was least interested in talking to me. He verbally told me the prices and when I asked him for the price list he said "I just told you the prices." When the Getz was launched I took a look at it and asked for a TD. I am still waiting. When I was buying a SX4, the sales staff at Ratan knew nothing other then price of the car. The dealership where I bought my Punto from is useless. The salesperson is pathetic and he is the sales manager there. On the other hand the same dealership has another outlet in Mumbai and the salesperson there was just fantastic. Most of the cars, whatever the brand, are selling themselves.

If you are not buying a Fiat fearing the future, then it's your decision. But talking about doomsday and history repeating itself is not done IMO. Based on my poor expereince at Hyundai dealership, should I start a thread on whether Hyundai is interested in selling cars to us?

Another point I have noticed is that if Fiat had priced the Linea at 12 lakhs and Punto at 8.5 like the i20, we would have gone ballastic and wondered if Fiat is serious about the Indian market. When Hyundai did it, no one seems to be thinking on those lines.

A successfull Fiat is extremely important for us. A hot selling Punto will keep the i20 and prices of competition in check. If it wasn't for the Punto we would be probably paying 9 lakhs for a i20 and being happy about it too!

Quote:
GP will not be giving good FE and this is for sure.
Give your anti-everything that isn't Maruti sentiments a rest. This is getting tiring now. We know you feel Maruti makes the best cars.

Quote:
Overall, I agree that after the initial excitement is over, there is nothing good left for long term success. Same will go for Linea too. Linea being a sedan will continue to be looked at as VFM in diesel format, but GP will not be able to sustain in the hatch segment.
It's amazing how people are desparately wanting Fiat cars to fail. Newsflash: SX4 is a flop. And it's not because of Linea.

Quote:
Look at I20. They have got so many things right and with that diesel, its very near to perfect hatch.
Would you elaborate on what they got right? And with that diesel, you say. What is GP running on? Keroscene?

Quote:
Reliability is also an issue I think.
Your Maruti has replaced more parts in my SX4 in 1.5 yrs then Fiat replaced parts in my S10 in 6 years.

Quote:
Their single engine i.e. SDE is successful that too because others could calibrate better than what Fiat could do.
Why is the DDis in Swift better caliberated then Punto? Because it gives you a whoosh while driving? Have you thought that Fiat may have chosen to tune the engine for linear power delivery? Why is the whoosh a better state of tune then linear power delivery?

We keep saying let Fiat resurrect themselves, let them settle down in the market. They went thorugh an almost bankcruptcy. That was the easiest time for them to withdraw from the Indian market citing low sales. Peugeot did that. But you know what? They stuck on. They struggled, sold 200 units a month, made themselves the laughing stock in the market but didn't give up on us. How much more committment do you want them to show?

When the Punto was launched in 2005, we on this forum banged our heads wondering if we would see the Punto in India in our lifetime. Guess what? It's here in 4 years. How much more committment should they show?

They put up a new plant. Spent thousands of crores to give us their state of the art products. Isn't that committment?

Many people wanted them launch their Euro products rather then flogging the Palio made for third world countries. Guess what? That's exactly what they have given you. Isn't that committment?

Last edited by amit : 12th July 2009 at 11:00.
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Old 12th July 2009, 11:02   #26
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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Sawyer, the only people who have problems with FIAT are people who have never owned one. Since you have owned one, your points are wrong, you are here probably under payola from Honda or Hyundai and have come to these hallowed forums to tarnish the image of this great Italian company who give us Maseratis for the price of SEATs, the best customer service north of Ferrari and build quality which will save you when a full cargo container is dropped on you at speed.

BEGONE, INTERLOPER!
somehow, I cannot figure out why people who have not owned Fiats would have a problem with it! I appreciate the rest of the irony!
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Old 12th July 2009, 11:03   #27
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I agree with Sawyer in most of his comments. So will not repeat them. I am also a stickler for quality, something different which has subsatnce and genuinely a class apart. But look at GP looks Yes but i 20 gives it a tough competition(just keep your biases- pro italian and against korean). It looks a big proper highr class hatch and except for scoring slightly less on ride and handling at high speeds most which people will not do very often, it trumps GP in all other aspects. So I don't think GP is going to be very successful, and I secretly wish that it happens. And Linea fails too! So that we don't have to keep cheering them again and again knowing well in hearts that they are not moulded like winners.

BTW the GP and linea are alos not the cars for which we loved Fiat. The USP of of solid build quality and ftd factor like Palios/1.6 Gtx is gone. Both linea and GP are underpowered , tall gearing and now poor inetriors in GP. I would take a swift ddis over GP any day (after having td the GP) and if it rattles I will just pump up the volume on the stereo or pay a nominal amount to any road side mechanic to fix it and be happy till it resurfaces again after some time only to brushed aside like a mosquito bite in an otherwise perfect house.
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Old 12th July 2009, 11:18   #28
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So MadMax, you are one of those for who, high price would automatically mean higher quality, eh ? No proof of better fuel efficiency, no extra goodies, not better handling, not better suspension, not better paint quality, not more rear space. What's better, eh?
Keep cheering. The Hyundia dealers are laughing their way to the bank.
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Old 12th July 2009, 11:18   #29
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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
1) Sawyer, the only people who have problems with FIAT are people who have never owned one.
2) Since you have owned one, your points are wrong, you are here probably under payola from Honda or Hyundai and have come to these hallowed forums to tarnish the image of 3) this great Italian company who give us Maseratis for the price of SEATs, the best customer service north of Ferrari and build quality which will save you when a full cargo container is dropped on you at speed.

INTERLOPER!
1) Its not that those who have not owned Fiat have no right to comment. Moreover I dont think that those who have not owned a Fiat car are always 10 feet away from those cars and shut their eyes down whenever they get a glimpse of Fiat car. Its possible that they are indirectly involved in servicing and buying car. A person who knows more about car ( more than the fact that car has 4 wheels and one steering wheel ) will be called in for buying process of a car and if need be for servicing too. This is ground reality.

2) I dont know about anyone else, but right now I pay others to get the cars serviced and Maruti or Hyundai does not pay me. I am putting up my experience here.

3) What is base price for cheapest Seat ? I will pay that much and get me the cheapest modern maseratti. Please dont make these statements.

Now my experiences :

a) Considering that I know more about cars than average car buying public, my friend again asked me to have a look at Palio. Vista was dropped. Went to have a look only to be informed that Palio has 4 + 1 tyres ( actually they are wheels ), and is a strong car. But the human was more interested in selling Vista that was already out of the list. Vista had more space, is more modern, etc... the list went on. What is this ?

b) Dad's friend is looking for replacing his 1 lakh kms. + Maruti Zen for quite long now. Linea came up. Again visited the dealer. Linea was better explained than Palio, but was more interested in selling Indigo CS. Arguments like its smaller and cabin is very big, so no problem for using it in city, etc...The list was long.
My question : Nice words, but can we pay attention to the car I am here looking forward to ? No. Linea TD vehicle was not available, somebody took the car to his home for personal use. Tata Indica are also used like this. People from service center use it for their own personal use.
He is now looking forward to either Swift or Ritz.

After all this, I am sure eventually Fiat will suffer because of its bad attitude towards its own products. They need to establish their own chain again. Then an average customer can put in faith.
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Old 12th July 2009, 11:32   #30
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Seeler point taken. But if read my post carefully I have not mentioned price(i 20) even once bcause I know it is an issue. However that is not the point I am bringing up. I am saying the USP of Fiat is missing and that is why my crib. I am also not deterred by bad salesperson as it is the workshop you will have to deal with post purchase, though I agree that attitude of a salesperson says something about the dealer. Taking this argument further if the car is good one will make less trips to workshop. But at the same time one should have the peace of mind which comes from knowledge that if something does go wrong with the car then it will be resolved quickly, spares will be available, prices will be reasonable and generally the service/repair is not an issue to be worried about.

i hope I have clarified my point.
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