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Old 12th July 2009, 11:34   #31
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People are free to buy any product based on what their priorities are.

Let me add, however, that Fiat ownership is often made out to be much worse than it can really be. Having a Fiat and a Maruti in the family, let me tell you that I find Maruti service grossly over-rated, atleast in Delhi. A lot of people agree with this and have bought a Maruti only because of the extent of its service network and not its quality. Flame me if you wish, but I stand by this statement. And I am quite sick of a premium dealer like Motorcraft ignoring small issues in my car despite my noting them on the job card. Not to mention that I always get my Fiat back from service much faster than my Maruti, thanks to the crowds.

Let me also add that both the Fiat and the Maruti had the boot lock replaced under warranty. The Fiat boot lock was just rattling. The Maruti boot lock failed to such an extent that my sister drove for two days with the hatch tied by rope. Motorcraft took two days because it did not have the boot lock spare for their hottest selling hatch, the Alto.

Fiat network is growing and I can see Lineas standing in showrooms in smaller cities like Roorkee for example. Look, you don't build a service network or service expertise overnight. It grows over time. Maruti has taken 25 years to have this network.

I am not defending any of the truths that have been spoken before. And I criticise Fiat where its due, just read my product review. Since everybody is voicing their predictions based on their friends' or their own experiences, I thought that I should add mine.
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Old 12th July 2009, 11:35   #32
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Autocarr I clarify. i did not comment on the poor sheet metal of fit etc. I cribbed about poor interior quality of GP . even Linea's interiors are not as good as we expected.
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Old 12th July 2009, 11:46   #33
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[quote=aaggoswami;1380410]

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1) Tata A.S & S. is not having a good reputation. Moreover what about This is quite tough, and if we go by the record books, I am sure they will not be able to manage this much rush.
With a service interval for FIAT at 15000 km or 1 year unlike others at 5000 kms/6 months i dont see it as a problem at all. Tata has too many many service centres as compared to some other companies. Regarding Tata A.S.S, i dont think thats too bad, if Indicas are sold so do the Safaris sell at 9-11 L. When Hyundai or Tata customers go for service twice or thrice a year, a FIAT customer only goes ONCE in a year, it will nt be a headache for tata with such a big service network.

Quote:
2) Soon after tata took control thing were looking rosy, but within an year things are bad again . There are reports of Tata dealerships paying more attention to Tata car and not Fiat. Who will be responsible if things go wrong with greater magnitude ?
Why what happened? Things are bad again? Fiat launched Punto and its selling quite well with Linea at 900-1000 mark. Till now whoever went to get his Linea serviced and got a perosnal and not hearsay experience, his car wasnt neglected, they attended to a fiat customer nicely and as fast as they could. After my Linea 1st service, i have got 4 calls from Tata motors for feedback what else can they do? Even Hyundai called me for feedback just till 5k kms service for feedback.

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What will happen to Fiat cars A.s & S. once Nano is available ? Long term effect might not be good for Fiat.
Why would fiat be affected by small Nano? I agree Nano will sell more but will it be the case that all tata cars like Safari, indigo, indica also will be given service space and not fiat cars, will they be told to wait? You are forgetting that its not just a tie up between fiat and tata, they are in partnership of 50:50 for their ranjangaon plant , if Tata neglects fiat it will be their loss too (in thousands of crores). If fiat had just tied up with Tata for selling and servicing cars instead of involving 50 % funds for their new factory i would never hav had bought a fiat car.

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b)Linea was better explained than Palio, but was more interested in selling Indigo CS. Arguments like its smaller and cabin is very big, so no problem for using it in city, etc...The list was long.
Thats a personal experience i must say. Me and my friend both went to a showroom to buy a Linea and there is a separate guy appointed for Fiat cars, he told me that "those who want to buy Linea will not even look at Indigo" when i asked him that some people complaint that you force Indigos on them when they come to buy Linea. You think only Tata has this problem? AMIT has explained above how Hyundai didnt attend him when he went to inquire about i20. I didnt face this problem, you faced this problem how can we generalizre all will face this problem??


Quote:
After all this, I am sure eventually Fiat will suffer because of its bad attitude towards its own products. Then an average customer can put in faith.
Now thats a strong verdict to be passed on Fiat's future . Bad attitude? Bro, show me one thread where Fiat showed bad attitude towards its customers. Show me one post where a owner complained and fiat didnt listen. I will show you 10 threads and even 1 where fiat sent CORP quality manager to meet a Linea owner, sent service engineers to homes to explain blu n me and you say bad attitude? They are treating their customers as nicely as they can.

Regarding average customer putting in faith.. Lets see, if they manage sales of 2-3k fiat cars per month (last month sales at 2.5k cars)i will think they are successful. For a brand like Fiat in India which sold 300-400 cars in June 08 and now 2.5 k cars in June 09 they must have done something to attract Indian customers towards themselvers. Good words, improved service, something for sure.

Last edited by coolboy007 : 12th July 2009 at 11:48.
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Old 12th July 2009, 11:55   #34
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Right said, FIAT buying decisions are based on heart not head!
I had bad ownership experience with Palio-D! While most part this is very good/reliabile car, can have quality issues! And when you have quality issue only God can save the customer!
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Old 12th July 2009, 12:00   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) Its not that those who have not owned Fiat have no right to comment. Moreover I dont think that those who have not owned a Fiat car are always 10 feet away from those cars and shut their eyes down whenever they get a glimpse of Fiat car. Its possible that they are indirectly involved in servicing and buying car. A person who knows more about car ( more than the fact that car has 4 wheels and one steering wheel ) will be called in for buying process of a car and if need be for servicing too. This is ground reality.

.
there is something called sarcasm - aag - i think u missed to read that from IM's post

amit makes a valid point on competitive pressures in the Indian market and it makes sense to a CERTAIN extent.
yes the Hyundais and others might probably keep the Punto in mind while pricing BUT NOT TO A GREAT EXTENT as is CLEARLY visible from the ACTUAL PRICES.

the thing is, once you commit mistakes at regular intervals, you are viewed in a different light and people look at you with a lot of cynisism and suspicion.
thats is what makes the average customer SET HIGH STANDARDS for a FIAT car rather than a HONDA/HYUNDAI/MARUTI

this need not make FIAT lovers feel defensive. its a common occurence with any product.

i too wish FIAT does well in order that the competiveness in the market is maintained but THERE IS STILL A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE A MARUTI/HONDA/HYUNDAI consider a FIAT MODEL BEOFRE PRICING THEIR CARS

Last edited by narayan : 12th July 2009 at 12:11.
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Old 12th July 2009, 12:05   #36
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
1) Give your anti-everything that isn't Maruti sentiments a rest. This is getting tiring now. We know you feel Maruti makes the best cars.

2) It's amazing how people are desparately wanting Fiat cars to fail.

3) Would you elaborate on what they got right? And with that diesel, you say. What is GP running on? Keroscene?

4) Your Maruti has replaced more parts in my SX4 in 1.5 yrs then Fiat replaced parts in my S10 in 6 years.

5) Why is the DDis in Swift better caliberated then Punto? Because it gives you a whoosh while driving? Have you thought that Fiat may have chosen to tune the engine for linear power delivery? Why is the whoosh a better state of tune then linear power delivery?

6) We keep saying let Fiat resurrect themselves, let them settle down in the market. They went thorugh an almost bankruptcy. But you know what? They stuck on. They struggled, sold 200 units a month, made themselves the laughing stock in the market but didn't give up on us. How much more committment do you want them to show?

7) When the Punto was launched in 2005, we on this forum banged our heads wondering if we would see the Punto in India in our lifetime. Guess what? It's here in 4 years. How much more committment should they show?

8) They put up a new plant. Spent thousands of crores to give us their state of the art products. Isn't that committment?

9) Many people wanted them launch their Euro products rather then flogging the Palio made for third world countries. Guess what? That's exactly what they have given you. Isn't that committment?
1) I feel Maruti cars are VFM till SX4 range. Our neighbours recently bought Silver SX4. No parts replaced and in this rainy season, that car is proving itself good. Nobody else is able to provide a good combination as Maruti does.

2) Not fail, but warning Fiat that things can go wrong.

3) Why not! SX4 can cruise all day long at 140-150 without problem. Linea 1.4 would take eternity to reach those speeds as compared to SX4. Its weak motor as compared to SX4 ( after a 150 km drive in SX4 I am speaking this ). The japanese units almost never feel underpowered, but Linea does. I am the one to drive cars at high speeds so I can tell that after 140 Linea 1.4 response is not as good as SX4. Dont jump on this with 1.4 vs 1.6. I was just comparing that Linea could have been better.

Ritz motor is too free revving. TDed this car when I was in service for Baleno. Linea 1.4 can just dream of this feeling.
Diesel engine, I will come on that later.

4) Not the general thing I have heard. Yes its true for you but I am yet to come across such issues for SX4. Driveshaft replacement was one thing that I knew but not other parts.

5) Diesel engine. Swift feels faster and is more fun to drive pleasure giving machine than Linea. I love that feeling, but may be its my personal opinion. Take the car on highway for high speed motoring and then overtaking in critical situations. One realizes why that whoosh is important on highways. But again this might be personal preference, but what about engine noise ? Swift is more silent, why ?

6 and 9) Real commitment is getting out of that tata jv for sales and service and starting themselves over with their own network.

7 and 9) Commitment. Fiat SDE can come in from a small Japanese manufacturer before Fiat. I dont call this commitment. Why could Fiat not bring in this mill earlier for Punto. Its lack of commitment.
If suzuki will not launch a car for 4 years after its international launch, we say they are tyring to sell obsolete cars and cheat us. When fiat launches a car after 4 years fter its international launch, we say commitment. Thats the difference of opinions. Diesel mill delay ( still no sign of 1.6 petrol or diesel ) and delay in this launch prove something else to me.
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Old 12th July 2009, 12:50   #37
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wow aag ,i had heard and seen quite a few fiat fanboys but i think u must the one and only genuine maruti fan boy which i have heard on this thread
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Old 12th July 2009, 13:00   #38
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Ritz motor is too free revving. Linea 1.4 can just dream of this feeling.
Agree that Jap engines are generally more free revving but the SX4's 1.6L feels more Euro then Jap. As for Euro petrol engines, they are fun if they are turbo, TSI, FSI or TJet. Fiat's 1.6L torque is a worthy competitor to the Baleno's 1.6.

Quote:
Driveshaft replacement was one thing that I knew but not other parts.
There were lots of niggling issues. Clutch, driveshaft and engine mountings were common. If Linea had these issues it would be poor quality. If Maruti has these issues, everyone keeps quiet and brushes them off under the carpet.

Quote:
When fiat launches a car after 4 years fter its international launch, we say commitment.
They were near bankcrupt. Their new Indian plant was under construction. These things take time and money which was in short supply due to their bankcrupt situation.

Quote:
Real commitment is getting out of that tata jv for sales and service and starting themselves over with their own network.
It's easy to sit and talk isnt it? If you had a couple of crores and wanted to set up a dealership and were approached by Fiat would you bite the bait? It's pure business. No one can survive selling and servicing 200 cars a month. No one can survive selling and servicing 3000 cars a month. Let the volumes build up. Fiat has plans and targets. Surely if the volumes pick up Fiat may think of setting up their own sales and service. More importantly, if volumes pick up, people maybe willing to invest money in a Fiat dealership.

Quote:
Linea TD vehicle was not available, somebody took the car to his home for personal use. Tata Indica are also used like this. People from service center use it for their own personal use.
He is now looking forward to either Swift or Ritz.
And you think Maruti or other dealers don't use the cars for their personal use? As for TD vehicle not avaliable, me and another member wanted to TD the i20 CRdi. Dealer said TD's will start after a week though car is avaliable for display. If Fiat does that all hell breaks loose. When Hyundai does that it's because they must have a genuine reason. When Fiat says RTO issue, they are useless. When Hyundai says RTO issue, the RTO guys are useless!
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Old 12th July 2009, 13:38   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) The matter here is quality. We have never seen such quality things happening in our Maruti 800 and Baleno. Never, not the driveshaft to say the least. GP is a new car in India ( if my memory serves me good ), so definitely the car cannot be more than 2-3 months old. And if they have this much rust in underbody, this speaks a thing or two about quality of parts. That is what I wanted to indicate.
My wife recemtly bought an Alto. The engine mounts were rusty like the GP drive shafts. Alto is a Maruti product, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
2) Overall, I wanted to hint at the entire range of engines on offer. If GP is offering very good FE, they compromise on performance. If they offer performance, they compromise on FE. Why cant they come up with a perfect blend like others have ? And the petrol is not going to give good results as far as FE and performance are in discussion. This is not the best combination of body and engine. Swift is in a league of its own when we consider the blend of performance and FE, and this is one of the reasons for its popularity.
Why did Suzuki not design their own engine? Why are they using a Fiat engine. Which is the most fuel efficient and fun to drive Maruti? And which engine does this Maruti use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
3) My point was that Fiat has made some very serious and bad cost cutting moves. That is all what I wanted to indicate. Lets not take things over the board. All my point is that Fiat has made too many cost cutting moves which is not good for Fiat and its image of producing good quality ( atleast the chassis and interior build quality ) cars.
You said it right. Maruti does not have to worry about cost cutting. They don't have an image of producing good quality cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
4) Their single engine i.e. SDE is successful that too because others could calibrate better than what Fiat could do. Also others could make it more silent, isint that surprising ? If we take out Swift and Dzire, how many units are selling of that diesel ?
And for the time being, most of the cars sold in India are petrol and they are japanese. Fiat cannot beat this fact.
Your statement may have some value in India where some people buy cars due to herd mentality (Maruti's have good FE). The newgen Maruti/Suzuki engines are not very fuel efficient. How many people in the rest of the world actually buy a Suzuki.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Overall, the only point I am trying to make here is that with GP, they have made compromise specially due to cost cutting moves. My uncle has 1.9D Palio and let me tell you he told me palio is better built than GP! This is his 8th car and till now he has driven a lot in Saurashtra and A'bad ( read highway driving ).
Moreover the combination of motors + heavy car weight is not good. They are really not in favor of car's image.

And why is Fiat not able to explain why they are not controlling A.S & S. ? Any logical explanation ? What excuse they can give, we are not able to manage ? Means they are not ready to listen to customer. Fiat cars are generally given negative treatment at Tata dealer ships and this is proven. I have personally experienced this. If tata just about barely manages to serve its own cars, how are they able to handle Fiat cars ? Do they have knowledge and infrastructure ?
When Fiat provided build quality and power, you wanted FE. When they give you that you want build quality and power (which IMO is not as bad as made out to be in the GP & Linea). And you forgot the excellent handling, that Fiat has thrown in for free. Maruti does not give you FE, power, handling and build quality. But they are the best, thanks to customers like you. So go ahead a buy another Maruti and be happy. No one is stopping you.

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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Sawyer, the only people who have problems with FIAT are people who have never owned one. Since you have owned one, your points are wrong, you are here probably under payola from Honda or Hyundai and have come to these hallowed forums to tarnish the image of this great Italian company who give us Maseratis for the price of SEATs, the best customer service north of Ferrari and build quality which will save you when a full cargo container is dropped on you at speed.

BEGONE, INTERLOPER!
Hey you stole my signature!

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Originally Posted by architect View Post
People are free to buy any product based on what their priorities are.Let me add, however, that Fiat ownership is often made out to be much worse than it can really be. Having a Fiat and a Maruti in the family, let me tell you that I find Maruti service grossly over-rated, atleast in Delhi. A lot of people agree with this and have bought a Maruti only because of the extent of its service network and not its quality. Flame me if you wish, but I stand by this statement. And I am quite sick of a premium dealer like Motorcraft ignoring small issues in my car despite my noting them on the job card. Not to mention that I always get my Fiat back from service much faster than my Maruti, thanks to the crowds.Let me also add that both the Fiat and the Maruti had the boot lock replaced under warranty. The Fiat boot lock was just rattling. The Maruti boot lock failed to such an extent that my sister drove for two days with the hatch tied by rope. Motorcraft took two days because it did not have the boot lock spare for their hottest selling hatch, the Alto.Fiat network is growing and I can see Lineas standing in showrooms in smaller cities like Roorkee for example. Look, you don't build a service network or service expertise overnight. It grows over time. Maruti has taken 25 years to have this network. I am not defending any of the truths that have been spoken before. And I criticise Fiat where its due, just read my product review. Since everybody is voicing their predictions based on their friends' or their own experiences, I thought that I should add mine.
Could not agree more. The "best" A.S.S. of Maruti has serious issues too. Read my experience in the Red Hot Alto Spice thread.

Last edited by GTO : 13th July 2009 at 11:35. Reason: Do NOT discuss or suggest Moderator Activity in public.
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Old 12th July 2009, 13:42   #40
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My reason for posting this thread was to share my experiences with Fiat and their history in India for the benefit of forum members, for them to then draw their own conclusions and make better decisions, hopefully. I can see that I have also relit the fire under what seem to be ongoing passions for and against the brand, and that was not quite my intention. Perhaps it might be good to back off a bit remembering that at the end of the day, it is just a car made of steel and glass. And no matter what all of us may love to believe, it does not have a soul. That privilege is accorded to only animate beings! It is so easy to get one's ego invested into one's belongings and then react to any criticisms of these as being personal attacks. I am sure that no one intends them to be that way.
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Old 12th July 2009, 13:46   #41
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I am a new Fiat owner and also a maruti owner.
Here are some FIAT-MYTHS that the some people seem hellbent on propagating. Let me bust them.

1) TATA sales are giving step-mother treatment to Fiat cars
TATA-Fiat are in a 50-50 JV. That means TATA cannot shoot itself in their foot by not selling Fiat cars.
I went for Linea TD in 2 dealerships and asked this question: they said ... "both are our cars, the customer buys any car we are happy. Are we stupid to turn away a potential Fiat/TATA customer by offerng the other one?"

2) Fiat = bad A$$, lack of spares etc
Now to all the uncles here who were unos/palios probably remember that they were treated badly by the "Fiat dealers", lack of spares etc. They must have spread the word to avoid Fiat at all costs.
Here's some flash news to you.
Fiat is now manufacturing out of India at pune! That means cheap and readily-available spares.
And all those bad fiat dealers are now gone for good.
Fiat has the backing of the huge India-wide TATA dealer & service network.

3) Fiat is not giving powerful engines
When they gave powerful engines, people compared with the silly wagonR and etc and went with them cheaper cars.
Fiat have learnt a good lesson. better stick to normal engines, thats where the market is.
Also a Very good strategy from Fiat for pricing good cars well below the competition.

4) TATA service is bad.
I own a maruti and I am really amused to see the songs of high praise for "maruti service".
Thats a bunch of BS. They are no better than the TATA guys.
I feel all the Indian service techs are the same. They all lack professional expertise.

5) Fiat is giving bad interiors
So what is "good" interior? Something that the other manufacturer is giving and charging 1lakh more?
Good for you, you have that kind of money to throw on interiors, then.
For us mortals, Fiat is doing good enough and its giving all features also at much cheaper prices than competition.

6) Fiat is not treating customers well
They are listening to every single complaint/niggles and sending their people to resolve these.
What else do you want?

I am a happy Fiat customer. They are giving good VFM products and thats a good thing for the Indian market. Please donot support over-priced strategies of makers like Hyundai/Honda.
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Old 12th July 2009, 13:48   #42
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Agree that Jap engines are generally more free revving but the SX4's 1.6L feels more Euro then Jap. As for Euro petrol engines, they are fun if they are turbo, TSI, FSI or TJet. Fiat's 1.6L torque is a worthy competitor to the Baleno's 1.6.
That is not entirely correct. Jap engines feel free revving since they normally pull much lesser weight. The reason SX4 feels more Euro is because it has to lug much more weight than Baleno. Of course, Baleno engine is quite good since it had almost flat torque curve, which means it can pull effortlessly at lower RPM without flogging hard. In any case, most of the engines produce peak power between 5500-6000 RPM barring few exceptions.

Reason why TSI, FSI, TJet feel free revving is because they produce more power/torque than their naturally aspirated siblings, and hence, pull the weight much more effortlessly.

Last edited by RX135 : 12th July 2009 at 13:49.
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Old 12th July 2009, 13:50   #43
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
The tie up with Tata is indeed bringing in more sales for Fiat, no doubt about this, but what are the long term effects ?
Hmmm. So you agree with the thing about sales.

Quote:
Tata A.S & S. is not having a good reputation. They are having their hands full with Tata cars.... I am sure they will not be able to manage this much rush.
Fair point about the Nano. I hope they cope.

But I have not experienced Maruti Suzuki service to be better than Tata. My experience with Anuroop has been the best and the Anuroop team is in Fortune Motors, Powai. So should I say that Tata-Fiat service is better than that of Maruti. I think *** can be generalized to an extent but the generalization has to be in context.

Quote:
2) What is the current status of A.S & S. for Fiat cars ? Soon after tata took control over distribution and service, thing were looking rosy, but within an year things are bad again. There are reports of Tata dealerships paying more attention to Tata car and not Fiat. This is attitude in selling car, think about their attitude in servicing. No wonder, somebody complained that diesel engine oil is put in petrol motor. Who will be responsible if things go wrong with greater magnitude ?
Could you describe 'rosy'? The way you have worded stuff here, I think we should all go back to riding horses and donkeys because there are horror stories for almost every brand on this forum. But then who knows, we would then have some discussions along the lines of type of feed, taking things to the water and making them drink, and this being better than that and so on ...

Quote:
The initial short term gain was sales, but later on things might be other way round. What will happen to Fiat cars A.s & S. once Nano is available ? Long term effect might not be good for Fiat.
Yeah, right - they should pack up right now. Only Maruti deserves to stay on.

Last edited by typeOnegative : 12th July 2009 at 13:59.
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Old 12th July 2009, 14:04   #44
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I don't understand the intention of this thread?

It looks like thread-starter is giving his justification for buying a i20!
Congrats mate! Enjoy your car!
But, why this long frowning story on Fiat and its cars?

BTW, Fiat launched Palio in 2001 which is not long ago and majority of us here are already aware of the happenings since then!

The present state of affairs of Fiat India is far far better than what it was in 2001!
Fiat India now has a Indian CEO, with a vast experience of Indian automobile industry and who knows the pulse of Indian car buying public!
Secondly, the grand tie-up with Tata for Sales & Service!
IMHO they are doing a good job except for few instances.
Thirdly, the huge investments Fiat made into Indian market & the range of fantastic cars available from Fiat stable!
That shows their long term commitment to Indian market!
I need not add anything more!

Last edited by finneyp : 12th July 2009 at 14:08.
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Old 12th July 2009, 14:26   #45
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I think this is just another Fiat Vs other cars thread as usual. You just mention the word Fiat and you have hundreds of fans pouncing on the thread. No matter how many people blow out and say 1+1 is 11, it wont be the truth. 1+1 is always and will always be 2. The same is the case with Fiat. People may just burst out saying Fiat is improving and doing things better, but the reality is different. Just selling 3000 cars out of a Lakh cars sold in a month despite being in India for the last 9 years tells the story.

GP and Linea are good cars, but not the ones which one can buy with peace of mind atleast in India. Current owners will definitely resist this statement, but sorry folks this is the truth. An average Indian is one who buys with his head more than the heart, because it is the hard earned money one is shelling out. It is difficult to convince such people on Fiat. Changing perceptions is not easy.

It is important for a company to get their stretgy right and I am not sure if Fiat has got this act right yet. They need to learn a lot from Maruti and Hyundai. They need to first be sure if they are catering to the mass segment or to a niche. If it is mass then Fuel efficiency and A** are extremely important. In an effort to meet these, GP has got really underperforming engines. Unlike Japanese cars which are light weight, Fiat is built like a Tank and obviously laws of Physics aint aiding fuel efficiency. So I feel therefore they still haven't got their act right

I just hope that they think and act right and atleast touch 5% market share. This will definitely benefit an average Indian like me as better competition is ultimately going to benefit the end consumers.
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