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Old 14th July 2009, 08:46   #16
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First of all before we give thumbs up to Nano, I suggest we have another look at the entire article I am posting below :

Quote:

2009-07-13 - A four-seater car for less than 2000 Euro? That will not meet standard safety regulations - could be an opinion. That this is not the whole truth, Tata proved with a crash test on Mira's testing facility on July 10, in Birmingham.

With a length of 3.1 metres, width of 1.5 metres and height of 1.6 metres, the Tata Nano has the smallest exterior footprint of all cars in India but is 21 percent more spacious than the smallest car available today in the country. Its 625 ccm 2-cylinder gasoline engine, designed by FEV in Aachen (Germany), develops 36 horsepower, around 29 kilowatts. And despite its low price and compactness, the Nano meets all of the regulated safety legislation for the Indian market: A full frontal impact into a solid barrier at 48 kilometres per hour, the so called ECE-R 12 specification, a static door crush test and the roof crush test. That is a fact. Besides being crashworthy, all the safety items on Nano are compliant with Indian regulations which are aligned with the European rules. Examples of such items include mirrors, seat belts and anchorages, seats and their anchorages, steering wheel and effort, glass, lighting and signalling devices, brake components, fuel tank, wheel rims and tyres, external projections and all latches.

Despite all these facts, the Nano must not necessarily meet European Safety standards. Dr Clive Hickman, Head of Engineering at Tata Motors Limited, stated: "The purpose of the tests that we are undertaking at Mira today is to demonstrate that the vehicle structure is appropriate for European legislation." Concerning the design of the Nano, Hickman explained: "As part of the initial design brief, our target was to construct a modular body where structure could be added to the base vehicle to enable us to meet the regulated safety legislation for Europe: the ECE offset frontal impact with deformable barrier. This will become legislation in India in three years time." That ECR 94 norm describes a 40 percent offset crash at 56 kilometres per hour.

To be strong enough for this demanding impact, the Nano has been equipped with an additional airbag. Further Hickman´s engineers reinforced the front longitudinal structure and added a structure to the front of the vehicle behind the bumper and on the firewall. Another structure is added to the front doors. All of these enhancements are added to the Body-in-White (BIW) on the assembly line for the base vehicle and add 18 kilograms weight to the BIW. Nevertheless, even this version will not be the 2012 announced European version of the Nano. The vehicle for the European market will have 15 centimetres more in length and 5 centimetres more in width. It than will be equipped with a turbo-charged version of the engine, delivering 56 horsepower or approximately 42 kilowatts and 5 gears. It will also be designed to get a four-star rating at the Euro NCAP test.

To draw a conclusion, it is to state, that the actual Tata Nano, designed for the Indian market meets the present legislations. The improvements made for the new legislation from 2012 on, which is the actual valid legislation in Europe, need some improvements of the structure. These improvements prepare the structure of the Nano for the future. This has been demonstrated today impressively with a crash test and officially proven by Nic Fasci, engineer at the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA). VCA is the designated UK Vehicle Type Approval authority and with more than 30 years experience supports industry by providing internationally recognised testing and certification for vehicles, their systems and components. Measurements and a more detailed article will be published in ATZautotechnology 4-2009.
So,
1) This car was modified for testing and an airbag added. This practically makes the conclusion " Nano is very safe " a joke.

2) The real test will come up when EuroNCAP is allowed to pick up any Nano production model from India randomly and then tested. I read in ACI that even for Vista Tata has to make modifications to get three stars is EuroNCAP.

3) The version that is expected to be sold in Europe will be modified and different from Indian nano, so I still think that if Nano is tested by EuroNCAP, will it be Indian version. As mentioned above, we need a test at EuroNCAP for Indian version.

The fact that this car was modified for testing means that there is no point at jumping at conclusion that Nano is safe. Now this puts me in further doubt, is nano really unsafe that it has to be modified for crash testing ?

I would love to see this car used in city only and with at the most five passengers. Its not that i hate this car. My sister Is looking forward to this car. Its good for many Indians ( if not misused ), but I am against this type of modified car crash testing.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 14th July 2009 at 08:49.
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Old 14th July 2009, 09:31   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
First of all before we give thumbs up to Nano, I suggest we have another look at the entire article I am posting below :



So,
1) This car was modified for testing and an airbag added. This practically makes the conclusion " Nano is very safe " a joke.

2) The real test will come up when EuroNCAP is allowed to pick up any Nano production model from India randomly and then tested. I read in ACI that even for Vista Tata has to make modifications to get three stars is EuroNCAP.

3) The version that is expected to be sold in Europe will be modified and different from Indian nano, so I still think that if Nano is tested by EuroNCAP, will it be Indian version. As mentioned above, we need a test at EuroNCAP for Indian version.

The fact that this car was modified for testing means that there is no point at jumping at conclusion that Nano is safe. Now this puts me in further doubt, is nano really unsafe that it has to be modified for crash testing ?

I would love to see this car used in city only and with at the most five passengers. Its not that i hate this car. My sister Is looking forward to this car. Its good for many Indians ( if not misused ), but I am against this type of modified car crash testing.

Let us look at it this way. They have tested the Indian production version Nano for crash worthiness and have had to add reinforcements at the front and side doors along with airbag for it to pass the test.

While the Euro spec version will be longer and spiced up with more features along with the rise in price to meet Euro standards, my only wish is that the Tata guys should put these reinforcememts into the Indian Production versions also.

Even if they raise the price by 10 to 15 K , that would not be too much of an ask.

The Indian Nano needs these re inforcements if it helps in a frontal or a side impact collision.

Nano is very much price sensitive and i believe Tata cannot get this free of cost.

It is safer any day than an Auto or maybe an M800 also( Gut feel )
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Old 14th July 2009, 09:48   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) This car was modified for testing and an airbag added. This practically makes the conclusion " Nano is very safe " a joke.

2) The real test will come up when EuroNCAP is allowed to pick up any Nano production model from India randomly and then tested. I read in ACI that even for Vista Tata has to make modifications to get three stars is EuroNCAP.

3) The version that is expected to be sold in Europe will be modified and different from Indian nano, so I still think that if Nano is tested by EuroNCAP, will it be Indian version. As mentioned above, we need a test at EuroNCAP for Indian version.

The fact that this car was modified for testing means that there is no point at jumping at conclusion that Nano is safe. Now this puts me in further doubt, is nano really unsafe that it has to be modified for crash testing ?
Its quite common to modify cars for Euro tests. In fact all the Indian cars (including our Swift) were subjected to Euro test with two and sometimes four airbags. Lets take this news a little bit more positively. Its quite common even for European manufacturers to modify their cars for the test and sometimes even retest. Due to the intricacies of that test its possible to loose ranking due to silliest reasons. That why they get modified. You will get more details by googling...

All those who found Tata's modifications ridiculous please read this article. There are many instances like this with considerably more modifications.

Latest Euro NCAP crash test results - Skoda Roomster - Car and Car-Buying News - What Car?


Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
I wonder where they came up with the figure of 21% more spacious than the smallest car available in the company.

Looks like all the headroom in the nano as compared to the 800 is where most of the 21% is coming from
....


Is this a joke? First time ever that I've heard of a car being modified before being sent in for a safety test.

Adding reinforcements? To the FRONT AND THE SIDES? Hello TATA!

At a time that most cars are offering AIRBAGS and ABS as an optional extra, are you going to introduce REINFORCED DOORS AND ENGINE COMPARTMENT AS AN OPTION ??


Refer above regarding modifications...

How do you know that 21% is ridiculous! Where are your figures supporting your claim?

We will never know the 800's performance in crash test. But I know that it was deemed impossible even to modify the 800 to meet the tests! It was more cost effective for Suzuki to make an all new model. Then its frustrating to hear people panning Tata so harshly!


Oh no... I am not working in Tata.

Last edited by Trapezio : 14th July 2009 at 10:04. Reason: Additions
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Old 14th July 2009, 09:51   #19
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Lets not single out the Nano here. Important question is - Relative to its competition, how safe is the Nano? The cheapest hatch in India - the 800 - was designed 25 years ago. And the second cheapest - the Alto - is over a decade old. How would these cars fare in current crash testing procedures?
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Old 14th July 2009, 10:00   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
First of all before we give thumbs up to Nano, I suggest we have another look at the entire article I am posting below :



So,
1) This car was modified for testing and an airbag added. This practically makes the conclusion " Nano is very safe " a joke.

2) The real test will come up when EuroNCAP is allowed to pick up any Nano production model from India randomly and then tested. I read in ACI that even for Vista Tata has to make modifications to get three stars is EuroNCAP.

3) The version that is expected to be sold in Europe will be modified and different from Indian nano, so I still think that if Nano is tested by EuroNCAP, will it be Indian version. As mentioned above, we need a test at EuroNCAP for Indian version.

The fact that this car was modified for testing means that there is no point at jumping at conclusion that Nano is safe. Now this puts me in further doubt, is nano really unsafe that it has to be modified for crash testing ?

I would love to see this car used in city only and with at the most five passengers. Its not that i hate this car. My sister Is looking forward to this car. Its good for many Indians ( if not misused ), but I am against this type of modified car crash testing.
Hi,

I am very curious to know which car do you drive?
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Old 14th July 2009, 10:56   #21
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Originally Posted by Palio_2005 View Post
Hi,

I am very curious to know which car do you drive?
I dont think it matters. The points raised are valid.

Mr. Tata has said that Nano meets the Indian safety requirements. Lets leave it at that. But, does 800 also meet the Indian safety requirements? What would the difference between them would be? That is what is more important.(Nano could be safer than 800)
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Old 14th July 2009, 16:22   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
First of all before we give thumbs up to Nano, I suggest we have another look at the entire article I am posting below :



So,
1) This car was modified for testing and an airbag added. This practically makes the conclusion " Nano is very safe " a joke.

2) The real test will come up when EuroNCAP is allowed to pick up any Nano production model from India randomly and then tested. I read in ACI that even for Vista Tata has to make modifications to get three stars is EuroNCAP.

3) The version that is expected to be sold in Europe will be modified and different from Indian nano, so I still think that if Nano is tested by EuroNCAP, will it be Indian version. As mentioned above, we need a test at EuroNCAP for Indian version.

The fact that this car was modified for testing means that there is no point at jumping at conclusion that Nano is safe. Now this puts me in further doubt, is nano really unsafe that it has to be modified for crash testing ?

I would love to see this car used in city only and with at the most five passengers. Its not that i hate this car. My sister Is looking forward to this car. Its good for many Indians ( if not misused ), but I am against this type of modified car crash testing.
Nano have already passed ARAI test, which is regulatory requirement in India. They added the air bag because it is a requirement for European countries but not in India and it is not unusual to have the car modified before such tests. Crash tests are done to ascertain which parts of the car would need strengthening. And Nano have bigger crumple zone than either 800 or alto, right ?

Nano's desi version does not need to pass the EuroNCAP, but for whatever reason they are doing this. If nano was not a safe car then do you think it would make any sense for Tata to take it to UK and make it go through such a stringent test ? If Nano were to fail this test miserably, that would have bought a lot of bad publicity to the car and the Tatas. I can only imagine how the likes Jeremy Clarkson would have reacted to Nano flunking the test.

My thumbs up still goes to a company that is at least making an effort to make their world cheapest car safer by going through MIRA's EuroNCAP testing facility.
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Old 14th July 2009, 16:58   #23
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
Its quite common to modify cars for Euro tests. In fact all the Indian cars (including our Swift) were subjected to Euro test with two and sometimes four airbags.
All those who found Tata's modifications ridiculous please read this article. There are many instances like this with considerably more modifications.
We will never know the 800's performance in crash test. But I know that it was deemed impossible even to modify the 800 to meet the tests! It was more cost effective for Suzuki to make an all new model. Then its frustrating to hear people panning Tata so harshly!
What we need is more clarity. Even Indica vista needs to appear for crash testing in normal Indian format without modifications. Even the Q7 received 4 stars for what audi called " Faulty welding " and they have rectified that, but Q7 was never tested again.
Regarding Swift, it was the Hungary produced Swift that underwent tests and not the model produced in India.
Here the modifications are quite extensive. I think they added two structural members which is quite a bit much.
I wanted to see the performance of Nano that hits the road.

If I am aware of testing procedures, the manufacturer pays EuroNCAP money, EuroNCAP can pick up a car/s i.e. the car is not supplied by manufacturer for the first test, and then testing is done. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Relative to its competition, how safe is the Nano? The cheapest hatch in India - the 800 - was designed 25 years ago. And the second cheapest - the Alto - is over a decade old. How would these cars fare in current crash testing procedures?
I would love to see test results for M800, Alto and Nano that are produced in India. Give EuroNCAP freedom to choose any car they want straight out of factory and see results. The crash must be the normal routine of 40% offset at 64 kmph, not some XYZW-AB rule or something.
EuroNCAP is also observing any sharp objects on dashboard, etc.
But this test from Nano is not a proper test considering the addition of structural member and it was not done at 64 kmph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palio_2005 View Post
Hi,

I am very curious to know which car do you drive?
Well till now I have driven many cars. But normally I ride Zeus. I drive M800 quite often and sometimes baleno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
I dont think it matters. The points raised are valid.
Exactly, even Vista is yet to appear for EuroNCAP crash tests, let alone Nano.

Its not matter of giving chance to Nano, but then these results are misleading. If these are the standards to follow, the 800 also must be tested with modifications, the list will never end.

What we need is :
1) Giving EuroNCAP the freedom to choose any unit of 800, alto, Nano that are straight out of factory.
2) All the three models be tested at the current levels of 64kmph 40% offset crash test and the regular side crash testing. This clears all the doubt and we can compare the results logically.

Its frustrating and disgusting that India till now does not have transparent and up-to-date crash test norms.

EDIT : EuroNCAP site is not updated and till now I am not able to spot Tata nano is the list. So I doubt the credibility of this crash test and crash test result.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 14th July 2009 at 17:02.
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Old 14th July 2009, 18:57   #24
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Cool Tata Nano has passed current European front and side impact: AutoCar.co.UK

Tata Nano passes crash tests: AutoCar.co.UK



The Tata Nano has passed current European front and side impact standard crash tests.

The £1800 economy car was subjected to tests at the MIRA test centre last week under the supervision of an inspector from Britain’s Vehicle Certification Authority.

The tests were witnessed by several journalists, including Autocar’s Steve Cropley.

The crash tests included a 40 per cent offset and a 56km/h (35mph) frontal impact and are tougher than those that exist in India - currently the Nano’s only market - but they are due to be adopted in India in three years’ time.

By that time Tata aims to have 'Westernised' versions of the Nano ready for sale in both Europe and the US.

It intends to subject these cars to the NCAP testing, and is confident of a four-star rating.

Tata bosses are “delighted but not surprised” about the Nano’s successful crash tests at MIRA.

“We’ve conducted these tests in India already,” said Dr Clive Hickman, Tata’s head of engineering, “so we knew the car would pass. But it’s still a great moment.”
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Old 14th July 2009, 19:24   #25
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Nano have already passed ARAI test, which is regulatory requirement in India. They added the air bag because it is a requirement for European countries but not in India and it is not unusual to have the car modified before such tests. Crash tests are done to ascertain which parts of the car would need strengthening. And Nano have bigger crumple zone than either 800 or alto, right ?

Nano's desi version does not need to pass the EuroNCAP, but for whatever reason they are doing this. If nano was not a safe car then do ...est.
Many times I have written about the entire unitary body construction, so I think I am aware of crumple zones as much any other TBHPian. But that is not my point friend.

The point is I want to make is simple. This car was modified for the tests, so :

1) This is not applicable for Indian version. I want the tests for Nano that is full fledged test of a car taken straight out of Tata factory.
2) The full fledged test at 64 kmph was not done.
3) EuroNCAP site is not updated.

I agree that degradation of Nano brand can happen, but then this news is misleading Indians. Indians are not going to get this modified Nano, so whats the point of this test for Indians ? This version might end up in Europe, but not on FE centric Indian roads. So I think just wanted to point out that these results are not really that useful for Indian Nano buyers. We can discuss the issue of nano vs other's safety to death only when we have proper results of non modified Nano that we will get.

PS : I am not against Nano. We ourselves are considering this car and planning to get two the day this car is available.

EDIT : The euroncap site is still not updated. So I think that this test was done by some other arm or branch. Generally nobody will allow so many modifications for a car that is to be tested.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 14th July 2009 at 19:26.
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Old 14th July 2009, 19:44   #26
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Agree with the Aaggoswami.

Indeed this is in simple words a test of a vehicle which is not available in India. Its not easy to conclude how safe (or unsafe) the Indian one is from this tests.
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Old 14th July 2009, 19:47   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Many times I have written about the entire unitary body construction, so I think I am aware of crumple zones as much any other TBHPian. But that is not my point friend.

The point is I want to make is simple. This car was modified for the tests, so :
Just like most other cars are when they are set to be launched in a market with different regulatory requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) This is not applicable for Indian version. I want the tests for Nano that is full fledged test of a car taken straight out of Tata factory.
2) The full fledged test at 64 kmph was not done.
3) EuroNCAP site is not updated.

I agree that degradation of Nano brand can happen, but then this news is misleading Indians. Indians are not going to get this modified Nano, so whats the point of this test for Indians ? This version might end up in Europe, but not on FE centric Indian roads. So I think just wanted to point out that these results are not really that useful for Indian Nano buyers. We can discuss the issue of nano vs other's safety to death only when we have proper results of non modified Nano that we will get.

PS : I am not against Nano. We ourselves are considering this car and planning to get two the day this car is available.

EDIT : The euroncap site is still not updated. So I think that this test was done by some other arm or branch. Generally nobody will allow so many modifications for a car that is to be tested.
You do know that Nano have have passed ARAI's crash test ?
You do know that passing EuroNCAP is not required in India ?
You do know this is the Cheapest car in the world ?

This test that they did was done in front of journalists from automotive industry. And if you would kindly read the heading of this post, you would see that they did "ECE-R 12 specification" test.

Please read the following quote :-
Quote:
It intends to subject these cars to the NCAP testing, and is confident of a four-star rating.

Tata bosses are “delighted but not surprised” about the Nano’s successful crash tests at MIRA.

“We’ve conducted these tests in India already,” said Dr Clive Hickman, Tata’s head of engineering, “so we knew the car would pass. But it’s still a great moment.”
You see, the worlds cheapest car straight out of Indian factory with modification of ~18kg is capable of achieving EuroNCAP 4 start rating.

The joke is that many of the Japanese Kei cars in the Indian market which are many times more expensive and are heavier than the Nano haven't quite achieved that rating.

Last edited by Stratos : 14th July 2009 at 22:25.
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Old 14th July 2009, 21:27   #28
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
This test that they did was done in front of journalists from automotive industry. And if you would kindly read the heading of this post, you would see that they did "ECE-R 12 specification" test.
+1 to that. I think the article is quite clear about the fact that the Nano was tested at MIRA. Why should the EuroNCAP site be updated?

The fact remains that it meets current Indian regulations. With some modifications it can meet Euro standards as well. I think we all should take pride in the fact that the cheapest car in the world, made in India is able to achieve this.

Having said this I would have liked Tata Motors to come up with a low cost ABS/ airbags option.
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Old 14th July 2009, 22:44   #29
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Please read the following quote :-
You see, the worlds cheapest car straight out of Indian factory with modification of ~18kg is capable of achieving EuroNCAP 4 start rating.

The joke is that many of the Japanese Kei cars in the Indian market which are many times more expensive and are heavier than the Nano haven't quite achieved that rating.
^ Amen to that.

I frankly don't understand why some people are cribbing about the European ratings for the Nano. Don't they remember that Indians are still riding and buying thin sheet-metal bread-boxes called the Maruti Omni at twice the price of a Nano, which probably will be at the bottom of the world car table when it comes to safety?

For Tata to achieve what no other car maker in the world has achieved or even dreamt of achieving, I will buy a Nano with my eyes closed. Never an Omni even if I am gifted one.

On a side note, I did read somewhere (Autocar?) that Tata was trying to get their manufacturers to design airbags for the Indian Nano at about 2500 bucks a piece. That's Two thousand five hundred Indian Rupees!! Talk about radical thinking.

Last edited by discoverwild : 14th July 2009 at 22:46. Reason: re-phrasing :)
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Old 14th July 2009, 22:51   #30
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What people are cribbing about is why can't we get this particular Nano in India. Since its very easy (read cheap) to modify the Indian nano to meet this particular safety requirement (according to people here) unlike Jap cars, we should get this.

Necessity is the mother of all inventions. Tata knows it can't succeed building cars in other segments. This is not to criticize Tata. They can also be radical in providing better options on Nano which will only increase the sales. i would buy one with this improved safety and airbags (after all it would cost not more than 10000)
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