Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th July 2009, 10:42   #16
BHPian
 
mayjay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Delhi
Posts: 180
Thanked: 131 Times
Default

Hate the diesel. More polluting. Now before somebody gets after me with the 'more fuel efficiency, less CO, saar' line, let me clarify.

Ever studied the exit tube on any of these new generation diesels? What you will find is that from time to time it spews out black smoke in short bursts. That is suspended particulate matter (SPM), which happens to also be carcinogenic. Now, due to the rise in the popularity of the diesels in private vehicles, pollution (SPM) in cities is rising. So much so that in places like Delhi, gains from the CNG conversion of the public transport fleet are almost gone.

So I urge you my friends, to shun diesels at least until the engines with the particulate traps start to make an appearance. I know I will.
mayjay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2009, 11:30   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
raj_5004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dubai/Mumbai
Posts: 5,078
Thanked: 2,031 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayjay View Post
Hate the diesel. More polluting. Now before somebody gets after me with the 'more fuel efficiency, less CO, saar' line, let me clarify.
you will have to dump your wagon R & buy a Reva to justify your above post.
agreed, diesels are more polluting but that does not mean petrols are not polluting!

if this is for comparison purposes, with respect to a pollution, electric vehicles are the best.
raj_5004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2009, 12:17   #18
BHPian
 
mayjay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Delhi
Posts: 180
Thanked: 131 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
you will have to dump your wagon R & buy a Reva to justify your above post.
agreed, diesels are more polluting but that does not mean petrols are not polluting!

if this is for comparison purposes, with respect to a pollution, electric vehicles are the best.
Well yes petrols pollute, there can't be any doubts on that but my point is a limited one - i am willing to put up with the petrol pollution (which is even higher than diesel for certain forms of emission) but not with the black stuff the diesels presently spew out. On the electric front, i am not so sure as you are just moving the combustion to the power plant. If a fuel cell or some other clean alternative were available i would certainly ditch the petrol. Oh yes and once the particulate traps become standard (i think thats under euro 5) i'll have myself a diesel.
mayjay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2009, 18:08   #19
BHPian
 
sanagg1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HIMALYAS
Posts: 274
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayjay View Post
Hate the diesel. More polluting. Now before somebody gets after me with the 'more fuel efficiency, less CO, saar' line, let me clarify.

Ever studied the exit tube on any of these new generation diesels? What you will find is that from time to time it spews out black smoke in short bursts. That is suspended particulate matter (SPM), which happens to also be carcinogenic. Now, due to the rise in the popularity of the diesels in private vehicles, pollution (SPM) in cities is rising. So much so that in places like Delhi, gains from the CNG conversion of the public transport fleet are almost gone.

So I urge you my friends, to shun diesels at least until the engines with the particulate traps start to make an appearance. I know I will.
Dear Mayjay
1. For the benefit of community could you please explain why SPM type of pollution is worse than other type(petrol emmission).
2. Why do you think a multijet diesel engine is designed for. It is not only for torque and FE but to reduce SPM to a great deal. At many point of design developement one particular petrol may be more polluting than diesel. This is evident from the fact that M-800 being phased out not meeting BS-III
3. BMW & Merc may not have a diesel portfolio but Porche does have
Cheers
sanagg1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2009, 22:18   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
devarshi84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ahmedabad - Tor
Posts: 3,996
Thanked: 118 Times
Default

considering global warming to such a great extent, if we the community believe in a green car. which should be a better buy?

LPG or CNG? I know electrics are a great choice but with only the reva selling at more than 3 lacs its not a viable alternative.

Which is the most efficient LPG or CNG engine available in the market right now? I would like to also consider the fun to drive factor.

Last edited by devarshi84 : 26th July 2009 at 22:20.
devarshi84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2009, 23:43   #21
Team-BHP Support
 
.anshuman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Good-Gaon
Posts: 7,710
Thanked: 8,930 Times
Default

Unless alternative fuels are as widely available as Petrol and diesel nothing is better than petrol and diesels,ive had experience with all the fuels except electric here is my experience http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...s-lpg-cng.html (My experiments with LPG and CNG)
.anshuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2009, 00:42   #22
BHPian
 
mayjay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Delhi
Posts: 180
Thanked: 131 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanagg1 View Post
Dear Mayjay
1. For the benefit of community could you please explain why SPM type of pollution is worse than other type(petrol emmission).
2. Why do you think a multijet diesel engine is designed for. It is not only for torque and FE but to reduce SPM to a great deal. At many point of design developement one particular petrol may be more polluting than diesel. This is evident from the fact that M-800 being phased out not meeting BS-III
3. BMW & Merc may not have a diesel portfolio but Porche does have
Cheers
1. Certainly, though i have mentioned it before. SPM are fine particles which are known to be carcinogens. By virtue of remaining suspended in the air they contribute to the haze which can be seen in most cities, forming the most visible form of pollution.
2. Yes common rail engines are better than the direct injection variety at controlling SPMs but they still produce them in sufficient quantities to be easily seen. The point is any petrol presently available is better than the corresponding diesel - if you compare a BS3 to a BS3. The Maruti 800 is said to be phased out for not being able to meet BS4, not BS3. But then it is essentially a 25 year old engine. You might also know that the present Swift DDIS engine also does not meet BS 4 and would have to be recalibrated for doing so.
3. BMW and Merc both sell diesels

Last edited by mayjay : 27th July 2009 at 00:46.
mayjay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2009, 06:53   #23
BHPian
 
sanagg1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HIMALYAS
Posts: 274
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayjay View Post
1. Certainly, though i have mentioned it before. SPM are fine particles which are known to be carcinogens. By virtue of remaining suspended in the air they contribute to the haze which can be seen in most cities, forming the most visible form of pollution.
Just thinking loud
Is it not possible to put a filter kind of a thing in exhaust to get rid of SPM ?
sanagg1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2009, 11:01   #24
Senior - BHPian
 
devarshi84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ahmedabad - Tor
Posts: 3,996
Thanked: 118 Times
Default

Isnt this the job of a catalytic converter? I maybe wrong.
devarshi84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2009, 11:57   #25
Senior - BHPian
 
ashthedivx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,351
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

CNG is indeed a wise man fuel, only clunch is the availability which should be normalize in future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84 View Post
Which is the most efficient LPG or CNG engine available in the market right now? I would like to also consider the fun to drive factor.
Indeed for fun to drive LPG is the one, though if LPG is 9 in the fun to drive factor then CNG can be rated as 8 or 8.5.
ashthedivx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2009, 12:19   #26
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kanpur
Posts: 7,161
Thanked: 3,756 Times
Default

I would rule out the LPG and CNG at least for the moment - they are essentially 'modified' Petrol cars. They also have a performance disadvantage of about 15% and 30% respectively. If sometime we see vehicles optimised for these fuels, with Sequential (Direct) Fuel Injection, etc. etc. I may reconsider.

Electrics are great provided I can get a Tesla at a Civic price! Highly unlikely. May be one day in the not too distant future we start seeing Alcohol powered Fuel Cell cars (as is happening in the City buses in Reykjavik) then I will change my view. The pucca hydrogen economy is far in the future - it has been just round the corner for three decades!


Between Petrol and diesel i will opt for the former simple because my usage (total 10-15,000 km per annum in two cars) cannot justify the cost of a diesel. I must add that modern diesels are a far cry from smelly, noisy and sluggish cars of yore.
sgiitk is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2009, 20:46   #27
BHPian
 
sanagg1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HIMALYAS
Posts: 274
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I must add that modern diesels are a far cry from smelly, noisy and sluggish cars of yore.
Thats exactly i have been trying to get through. May be your style may do the trick.
Thanks
sanagg1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2009, 11:10   #28
Senior - BHPian
 
ashthedivx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,351
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I would rule out the LPG and CNG at least for the moment - they are essentially 'modified' Petrol cars. They also have a performance disadvantage of about 15% and 30% respectively. If sometime we see vehicles optimised for these fuels, with Sequential (Direct) Fuel Injection, etc. etc. I may reconsider.
Now-a-days Engine > 1.8 Lt are installed with sequential fuel injection one only. Recently a known converted his petrol innova to CNG with a sequential fuel injection, the job was done by toyota service center only.
ashthedivx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2009, 16:43   #29
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne, Hyd
Posts: 1,235
Thanked: 23 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
.....
Strange that, as much as the human race has evolved over the past century, the principles of the internal combustion engine stay the same. There has got to be a ground-breaking disruptive technology in our near future. ...
Were there any vested interests??

The rotary / wankel engine was an innovative technology, there is hardly any R&D in that field when compared to reciprocating engines.

Also, running an automobile with the compressed air / electricity is not a new thing, these existed more than 100 years ago!!! Infact the early land speed records by automobiles were held by battery powered cars.
Quote:
Electric cars enjoyed popularity between the mid-19th century and early 20th century, when electricity was among the preferred methods for automobile propulsion, providing a level of comfort and ease of operation that could not be achieved by the gasoline cars of the time.
Source.

Air cars.
kkr2k2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2009, 17:52   #30
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22
Thanked: Once
Default

I own two cars, both run on CNG. As a daily commuter, CNG works just fine. In the mad rush of delhi, who needs the power of a petrol engine. Of course I do have the option of switching to Petrol whenever I like for longer trips.

I have a Santro and a Cielo (which I bought only to run on CNG).

CNG does reduce the power.
On the efficiency side, a Cielo would give a max of 11 km per litre of petrol while on CNG it gives me close to 17 km per kg, with out AC and about 15 km with AC. The Santro gives me over 20 km per kg of CNG without AC and about 17 odd with AC.
For me, both these cars are cheapers to run than my Standard Bullet 350.

The only problem with CNG cars is that one cant use CNG outside Delhi, But I now hear that Agra, Jaipur, Kanpur and a few other cities up north also have CNG!
ravitejasharma is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LPG (or CNG) Vs Petrol Analysis Before Installing the Kit. subscrive Technical Stuff 7 20th February 2010 21:15
Palio 1.2 fitted with LPG Kit - Petrol level keeps coming down in LPG Mode shineshine Technical Stuff 9 10th May 2009 04:52
Confused between CNG/LPG/Petrol saurabhkum Modifications & Accessories 4 18th August 2007 09:44
Should I convert my Indica Petrol to CNG/LPG ? shuvc Modifications & Accessories 18 4th January 2007 17:10


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 19:06.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks