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Old 14th August 2009, 21:06   #76
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Seriously OT
Can anyone have more details about the white color grand safari displayed at the backside.
OT again: I think that's a wall. The other vehicle is a subaru and is on the other side of the wall
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Old 14th August 2009, 21:10   #77
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While I do not wish to hurt sentiments of people, who are attached to Indica brand, carrying Indica brand for Vista is not helping it/Tata in any way.
  1. Indica is a strong brand for entry level segment and will continue for a while. However, Vista is more upmarket and targeting at higher/premium hatchback segment. This target audience is more image oriented as compared to entry level hatch segment. So, dropping Indica tag from Vista does make sense there.
  2. Indica can continue to be entry level hatch and with keep targeting cab market as well. Tata apparently is wary that Vista might as well take "cab" image. With 2 separate brand names, they don't need to worry about it.
  3. Just because it is a hatch coming from Tata, it need not carry Indica tag. Maruti has multiple competing brands in same segment. Tata can do the same.
Having said that, this is difficult to do so since Indica and Vista resemble a lot and are based on the same platform.

I think, instead of getting sentimental about brand name, Tata should do what makes more business sense. (Which I am sure that they want to do).
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Old 14th August 2009, 21:51   #78
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Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
Ridiculous comments. Never did I mention that I do not like Indica or I would love to see the brand killed. What I tried to say is that Indica and Indica Vista are completely different cars and it would have been better if Tata had named the car differently to show that. I work for a Tata company and am extremely proud of of whatever Tata has done. This is a public forum and I am entitled to give my opinion. Such rant or sudden show of patriotism is uncalled for.
So you think Indica Vista and Indica are two completely different cars ? Let me break it to you, Vista happens to be an evolutionary update to older Indica.


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While I do not wish to hurt sentiments of people, who are attached to Indica brand, carrying Indica brand for Vista is not helping it/Tata in any way.
Indica is a strong brand for entry level segment and will continue for a while. However, Vista is more upmarket and targeting at higher/premium hatchback segment. This target audience is more image oriented as compared to entry level hatch segment. So, dropping Indica tag from Vista does make sense there.
Indica can continue to be entry level hatch and with keep targeting cab market as well. Tata apparently is wary that Vista might as well take "cab" image. With 2 separate brand names, they don't need to worry about it.
Just because it is a hatch coming from Tata, it need not carry Indica tag. Maruti has multiple competing brands in same segment. Tata can do the same.
Having said that, this is difficult to do so since Indica and Vista resemble a lot and are based on the same platform.

I think, instead of getting sentimental about brand name, Tata should do what makes more business sense. (Which I am sure that they want to do).

Indica generation 1 is a decade old platform, Indica Vista is newer and better but comes for almost same price(inflation adjusted) and it is certainly not a premium hatchback. Vista is targeted at the same people who would have bought generation 1 Indica a decade back.

Last edited by anmol2k4 : 14th August 2009 at 21:52.
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Old 14th August 2009, 22:27   #79
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So you think Indica Vista and Indica are two completely different cars ? Let me break it to you, Vista happens to be an evolutionary update to older Indica.
So what, maruti brings cars to India which are updates of existing models and still name them differently. Why should Tata hold on to the "Indica" brand name? One more thing that I did not understand is why it is wrong to criticize any particular thing we do not like. What is the problem if I call a spade a spade. I am a Tata fan as many others out here and I would love them to acheive greater heights in the automotive world. But that does not mean I cannot say anything against them. Sorry I do not get your point and it is getting seriously off-topic. I am out of here.
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Old 14th August 2009, 23:28   #80
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Coming back to Indica vista ignis WOW it looks hot in yellow. Hope they introduce a 90 BHP CRDi either indica or indigo with alloys , ABS, etc. and let them call it anything I will buy one.

sidindica can we get some more information & details on the launch date.

Last edited by kiren : 14th August 2009 at 23:29.
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Old 15th August 2009, 00:05   #81
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Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
So what, maruti brings cars to India which are updates of existing models and still name them differently. Why should Tata hold on to the "Indica" brand name? One more thing that I did not understand is why it is wrong to criticize any particular thing we do not like. What is the problem if I call a spade a spade. I am a Tata fan as many others out here and I would love them to acheive greater heights in the automotive world. But that does not mean I cannot say anything against them. Sorry I do not get your point and it is getting seriously off-topic. I am out of here.
Like for example what Maruti Suzuki does. They have two names for same car, Alto was upgraded but in India it is called A-Star and old Alto continues to be sold and when Wagon-R was upgraded for foreign market, it was renamed as Zen Estillo for Indian market and old Wagon-R is still being sold.
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Old 15th August 2009, 00:50   #82
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Indica generation 1 is a decade old platform, Indica Vista is newer and better but comes for almost same price(inflation adjusted) and it is certainly not a premium hatchback. Vista is targeted at the same people who would have bought generation 1 Indica a decade back.
Tata Motors obviously thinks different than you.

That's the reason why 2009 Indica Xeta/DiCOR/Turbo retail at least 50,000-1,00,000 cheaper than Indica Vista. Tata wants Vista to compete with other premium hatches like Swift/Punto/i20/Ritz. Indica Xeta/Turbo are meant to compete with entry level hatches like Santro/Wagon-R.

BTW, logic of inflation doesn't really work. Santro/Wagon-R have been selling around same price for a long while. In fact, prices have taken a dip in some cases. The competition is fiercer than it was 10 years back.

Vista would do well without Indica tag, though it is hard to shed that unless it is an entirely different looking car.
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Old 15th August 2009, 06:48   #83
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
So you think Indica Vista and Indica are two completely different cars ? Let me break it to you, Vista happens to be an evolutionary update to older Indica.

Indica generation 1 is a decade old platform, Indica Vista is newer and better but comes for almost same price(inflation adjusted) and it is certainly not a premium hatchback. Vista is targeted at the same people who would have bought generation 1 Indica a decade back.
@ anmol

How about economies of scale ?
Depreciated plant & machinery etc.
I thought they reduce cost of production

cheers
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:06   #84
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
So you think Indica Vista and Indica are two completely different cars ? Let me break it to you, Vista happens to be an evolutionary update to older Indica.
well, let me break it to you . The only thing which is common and evolutionary between the two cars is the styling, name , and TDi powerplant. The indica v2, the 2004 and 2007 updates, the xeta and the turbo and the dicor were evolutionary updates.The proof in that is that you can swap parts between them. Engines, suspension, body panels, ORVMS, bumpers etc, and people have.

On the other hand. the vista is very much all new. The chassis, the construction, the suspension, the transmission, the interiors, qjd and petrol engines are entirely new.The only thing from the vista i was able to fit onto my indica were the wheelcaps( I already have the TDI engine) . If what you say is true, i would be the first person in line for a QJD engine swap into my indica. Or the rear suspension swap - one is independent, the other is not.

It is such misinformation that adds to the ignorance of the general public and the lack of sales. At least as a member of tbhp, one would think you would be aware of this.
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Indica generation 1 is a decade old platform, Indica Vista is newer and better but comes for almost same price(inflation adjusted) and it is certainly not a premium hatchback. Vista is targeted at the same people who would have bought generation 1 Indica a decade back.
So just because tata does not rip people off like other manufacturers, you think that their products are not good enough? You sir, are the ideal honda customer, to think that higher price = better car

if any other manufacturer were to launch the vista , I'm sure that they would have priced is in the premium price point. Tata has issues with service and their dealers - I'll grant you that, and thats probably why they price it less to compensate. But let there be no doubt about the value or induviduality of the Vista as a product

Last edited by greenhorn : 15th August 2009 at 09:25.
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Old 15th August 2009, 20:32   #85
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
So you think Indica Vista and Indica are two completely different cars ? Let me break it to you, Vista happens to be an evolutionary update to older Indica.

Indica generation 1 is a decade old platform, Indica Vista is newer and better but comes for almost same price(inflation adjusted) and it is certainly not a premium hatchback. Vista is targeted at the same people who would have bought generation 1 Indica a decade back.
@anmol2k4 your ignorance is just just coming out loud in your post. I would have thought someone like you would be better informed given that you are a member of TBHP, but looks like you are just here to give your 2 cents of nonsense. Please read around and understand that Vista is a COMPLETELY different platform and the only thing in common with v2 is the name tag in part. So my friend, before posting, ensure that you read around and are better informed before passing along your ignorance. so let me have the last laugh here.
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Old 15th August 2009, 21:04   #86
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Anmol2K4 the comment regarding vista being the same as the earlier indica is is INCORRECT PERIOD.

The vista is an entirely new vehicle and a very capable and good one at that. Pls closely compare an Indica with a a vista and try to replace a vista part with and Indica or V2 part and you would discover how new the Vista is.

Pls appreciate the worldclass effort by tata in developing the vista car and platform. It will do well in the long run as its abilities are know and newer variants are released.
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Old 15th August 2009, 21:28   #87
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Originally Posted by vista_qjd View Post
@anmol2k4 your ignorance is just just coming out loud in your post. I would have thought someone like you would be better informed given that you are a member of TBHP, but looks like you are just here to give your 2 cents of nonsense. Please read around and understand that Vista is a COMPLETELY different platform and the only thing in common with v2 is the name tag in part. So my friend, before posting, ensure that you read around and are better informed before passing along your ignorance. so let me have the last laugh here.
* This is my stance, if you think that it is nonsense then so be it. I still believe that Vista is evolutionary update to older Indica. There is a reason why it is called Indica Vista, there is a reason why it looks so similar to older Indica and sells for almost same price. Sure it is completely new platform, that is why i called it an evolutionary update like Monkey > Humans. The car have same DNA.

This my stance. You can as much as you like.


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well, let me break it to you . The only thing which is common and evolutionary between the two cars is the styling, name , and TDi powerplant. The indica v2, the 2004 and 2007 updates, the xeta and the turbo and the dicor were evolutionary updates.The proof in that is that you can swap parts between them. Engines, suspension, body panels, ORVMS, bumpers etc, and people have.

On the other hand. the vista is very much all new. The chassis, the construction, the suspension, the transmission, the interiors, qjd and petrol engines are entirely new.The only thing from the vista i was able to fit onto my indica were the wheelcaps( I already have the TDI engine) . If what you say is true, i would be the first person in line for a QJD engine swap into my indica. Or the rear suspension swap - one is independent, the other is not.

It is such misinformation that adds to the ignorance of the general public and the lack of sales. At least as a member of tbhp, one would think you would be aware of this.


So just because tata does not rip people off like other manufacturers, you think that their products are not good enough? You sir, are the ideal honda customer, to think that higher price = better car

if any other manufacturer were to launch the vista , I'm sure that they would have priced is in the premium price point. Tata has issues with service and their dealers - I'll grant you that, and thats probably why they price it less to compensate. But let there be no doubt about the value or induviduality of the Vista as a product
I agree with you completely, the reason i chose the words "evolutionary update" is because the DNA-USP-Brand in the newer Indica is intact. It is a fact that it is a new car, but not completely as it is the latest evolution of **Indica**. Revolutionary updates would be like the Suzuki's Altos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanagg1 View Post
@ anmol

How about economies of scale ?
Depreciated plant & machinery etc.
I thought they reduce cost of production

cheers
Agreed, that is why we should only compare the price of Indica in 1998 with todays Vista.
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Tata Motors obviously thinks different than you.

That's the reason why 2009 Indica Xeta/DiCOR/Turbo retail at least 50,000-1,00,000 cheaper than Indica Vista. Tata wants Vista to compete with other premium hatches like Swift/Punto/i20/Ritz. Indica Xeta/Turbo are meant to compete with entry level hatches like Santro/Wagon-R.

BTW, logic of inflation doesn't really work. Santro/Wagon-R have been selling around same price for a long while. In fact, prices have taken a dip in some cases. The competition is fiercer than it was 10 years back.

Vista would do well without Indica tag, though it is hard to shed that unless it is an entirely different looking car.
* You are comparing 10 year old platform with 1 year old platform. If Tata were thinking differently they wouldn't have designed Vista to look so much like older Indica, they wouldn't have priced-positioned it similarly and of course they wouldn't have named it Indica. And if you think that Vista/Swift/Punto/i20/Ritz are premium hatchbacks then what do you think Fabia Beetle 500 Jazz are ?.
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Originally Posted by arunpn View Post
Like for example what Maruti Suzuki does. They have two names for same car, Alto was upgraded but in India it is called A-Star and old Alto continues to be sold and when Wagon-R was upgraded for foreign market, it was renamed as Zen Estillo for Indian market and old Wagon-R is still being sold.
Why should Tata imitate Maruti and not VW Fiat BMW ?

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Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
So what, maruti brings cars to India which are updates of existing models and still name them differently. Why should Tata hold on to the "Indica" brand name?
Because Tata is not Maruti.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
One more thing that I did not understand is why it is wrong to criticize any particular thing we do not like.
* Both of us are entitled to our own opinion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indica was getting old, and it needed update, and Tata did what was necessary.

They played it safe, somewhat like VW-Beetle Fiat-500 BMW-Mini etc etc, and unlike Maruti.

Vista is a new car,but it was designed as a newer Indica. That is why it is called Indica.

And for same reason i called it an evolutionary update.

Nonsense or not, but this is my opinion.

Last edited by anmol2k4 : 15th August 2009 at 21:33.
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Old 15th August 2009, 21:43   #88
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
I agree with you completely, the reason i chose the words "evolutionary update" is because the DNA-USP-Brand in the newer Indica is intact. It is a fact that it is a new car, but not completely as it is the latest evolution of **Indica**. Revolutionary updates would be like the Suzuki's Altos.
But the context you said so was in response to blackpearl's post where he said that they are different cars. Notwithstanding what you have posted above, what blackpearl said was true, and you said it was not. Just because it shares the DNA , does it mean that it cannot be an all new car ? cars in india have been called "all new" for a lot less, say a headlight and bumper change.

I fail to see how a different generation alto is a revolutionary update ( when they also share the same DNA) , and yet the indica is the same car in your eyes. What should TML do then, launch the safari as the all new indica?
Quote:
And if you think that Vista/Swift/Punto/i20/Ritz are premium hatchbacks then what do you think Fabia Beetle 500 Jazz are ?.
Outrageously priced hatchbacks

Last edited by greenhorn : 15th August 2009 at 21:45.
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Old 15th August 2009, 21:57   #89
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But the context you said so was in response to blackpearl's post where he said that they are different cars. Notwithstanding what you have posted above, what blackpearl said was true, and you said it was not. Just because it shares the DNA , does it mean that it cannot be an all new car ? cars in india have been called "all new" for a lot less, say a headlight and bumper change.

* The context in which he said that was;- that Vista should not be called Indica as it is a completely new car.


But it isn't as it was designed with Indica in mind, to carry forward the mantle of its predecessor. And that is why i reminded him that Vista is different only in evolutionary way. If it didn't look like its predecessor, then they should have named it differently. But it does look like Indica and is named Indica. That i why i believe it is an evolutionary update to older Indica.



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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
I fail to see how a different generation alto is a revolutionary update ( when they also share the same DNA) , and yet the indica is the same car in your eyes. What should TML do then, launch the safari as the all new indica?
* This is very much subjective, as i find very little similarity in different generations of alto. For example A-Star and 800, i consider A-Star as revolutionary update.


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Outrageously priced hatchbacks
True , but isn't premium everything == outrageously priced.?

Last edited by anmol2k4 : 15th August 2009 at 22:03.
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Old 15th August 2009, 22:28   #90
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I think you have a very weird grasp of the evolution/revolution concept. I cant make sense out of any of your statements

about the pricing thing, nah, there are many degrees
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