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Old 23rd August 2009, 21:03   #16
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This proposal is draconian to say the least. The reason for road accidents, fatalities etc is not the absence of legislation but the enforcement of rules and the law. therefore, wishing for reform by making legislation very stringent does not address the core issue : Law enforcement & execution.
- what's to prevent the powerful to still get away, or for some corrupt officials to frame one party etc ?

Let's first start fining all road rule violations like red light jumping, wrong side driving, no tail lights etc etc, and I am quite sure the road safety issues will improve in the most significant way.

BTW, this thread is definitely automotive related - so should it be in shifting gears ?

Last edited by lancer_rit : 23rd August 2009 at 21:05.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 21:26   #17
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@GTO: +1

What all of us are missing is the words "rash and negligent driving"

Imagine that you are attentively driving on a highway (or for that matter anywhere) within speed limit wearing seat belts and with your car in perfectly legal condition. From the median (or the berm), full of bushes, steps a man/child right in front of your car. Laws of pyhsics govern your stoping distance and you are unable to do anything but cause fatality (there is a thread of a member having gone through this exactly in our forums - look it up). Inspite of your best intentions there is nothing that you could do!

Now it is up to policeman on the spot to write the FIR. Their typical reaction is to slam all applicable sections on to you and you can bet your money that it will include rash and negligent driving.

Now if proposed amendments are carried through you will be ending up in slammer without bail. Till your case is heard and unless it is proven that you were not driving driving rashly and/or negligently.

How will you prove your innocence?

Is this scenario not likely? Let me share an incident that happened to me way back in 1975. I was a newly licensed driver and we were driving on an empty road in Rajasthan when a calf ran up the embarkment and jumped in front of my car right when I was approaching a small bridge. Why it ran? It was chased by a small boy (cow herd) whom I barely missed. Even at 50kmph I could not avoid hitting the calf and it died. I was charged with "rash and negligent driving" and had to get a bail (The case took another two years to settle). It could easily have been the child.

How many of us have had narrow escapes because not of rash or negligent driving on our part but due to pedestrians "rash and negligent" behaviour? Just imagine that instead of escaping you ended up causing fatality?

The proposed amendment is bad and myopic. It does not take in to account that accidents happen. The guilty party died. And the innocent party is going to end up in slammer.

This needs to be agitated and brought to attention of our "honourable" lawmakers before it is too late.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 21:55   #18
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Originnaly posted by GTO
I hope this proposal doesn't go through. While I am all for curbing rash driving, the potential of misuse & wrong punishments is simply too high. I mean, it's the unofficial law in India that the larger vehicle is always at fault. And flashy cars are always speeding.
You are absolutely right, there is high likelihood of misuse in our social setup.

IMHO, such blanket punishments wont serve the real purpose. Each case needs to be analysed separately and dealt with accordingly.
Even a person indulging in some rash driving wont be having the intention to kill. Hence, in the unfortunate situation, it will be culpable homicide not amounting to murder. Making such an offence non bailable is deplorable in a democratic nation like ours.

The real murderers on raod will be driving in a precise manner and nothing rash. They will mimic an ordinary fatal accident.

The need of the hour is more stringent licensing procedures and vehicle fitness tests. Creating awareness among all road users is paramount.

Let us all practice disciplined, safe and yet spirited driving.

Team BHP is doing a lot in creating this awareness and still we have to go a long way.

LIVE AND LET OTHERS LIVE
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Old 23rd August 2009, 22:02   #19
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+1 to all the views regarding this being draconian. If this is passed, I would definitly think of retiring from driving, especially as I reside in one of the worst places to drive i.e New Panvel. Whenever I drive I have a silent prayer that no rash biker comes my way. As the bigger vehicle is always at fault, risks of getting jailed are very high if something unfortunate happens.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 22:30   #20
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The last thing we need is more laws. It's better if the current laws are implemented more strictly. There wont be any need for harsher punishments.

If people start wearing helmets and seatbelts and start driving within limits, there wont be any more accidents (relatively speaking).

On the Expressway where the speed limit is 100kmph, I see vehicles passing us by at 160-170. why? where's the cops?
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Old 23rd August 2009, 22:43   #21
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Without better law enforcement, what does it matter what the penalty is?
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Old 23rd August 2009, 23:14   #22
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This is India. And in all likelihood "our-pocket-friendly" law enforcement agencies and politicians are completely capable of passing such laws. In such a case, only a video recording device such as the one that HVK has in his Scorpio, can if at all, help one to get out of such situations. As it is, I do not recall many instances of "rash and negligent" drivers being convicted and imprisoned for 2 years.

We need to get rid of the law "that the bigger vehicle is always at fault" and have laws that will make pedestrians/cyclists etc. pay for traffic violations.

This proposal is an extremely bad solution for a real problem.

Last edited by pjbiju : 23rd August 2009 at 23:17.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 23:34   #23
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One more thread where my response is exactly the same as the one I posted in another thread a little while ago: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1445647-post2.html.
Quote:

How nice! Some more committees and boards, some more data crunching, and hopefully nothing to come out of it.

When will someone wake up to the fact that easy procurement of driving licences and inadequate driver training is at the root of all this?
Moderators can perhaps merge this thread with the other one: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ad-safety.html.

There is a huge knee-jerk reaction that seems to be happening within the government, and half-baked ideas and policies to improve road safety are expected to soon become the law. Hope someone who matters reads this thread and doesn't jump into formulating ridiculous laws.
Quote:
"Keeping in view the present day practical reality, the punishment should be increased to 10 years imprisonment"
And keeping in view that same proposal if it becomes law, we are bound to see a radical increase in cases of hit-and-run driving, because, as Sudev said,
Quote:
Now if proposed amendments are carried through you will be ending up in slammer without bail. Till your case is heard and unless it is proven that you were not driving driving rashly and/or negligently.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 23rd August 2009 at 23:35.
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Old 24th August 2009, 07:39   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Hope someone who matters reads this thread and doesn't jump into formulating ridiculous laws.
They won't, this forum does not matter to them. And there lies our problem. None of us are willing to run for public office, because all of us would rather that someone else does this, so we can continue to do self service, and post on this forum in our spare time. In the vacuum created by our abdication, what steps in are those who see running for public office as self service.
We can moan and groan till the cows come home, but unless the face of Indian politics changes radically, we are not going to get better governance. Because we are not doing anything constructive to deserve it.
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Old 24th August 2009, 07:54   #25
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@Sawyer: Yes and no. We can still make our voices heard by devoting some effort in raising conciousness about the issue.

Blog about it, write to your friends and to your member of parliament. Talk to any friends in media. Can they rake up this issue? Write a letter to editor of your newspaper. Raise the issue with your automobile association (mostly defunt in India but still a lobby group). Write a letter to CII, FICCI, ASSOCHEM, and such. After all it is the rich who drive and their sons and daughters who would be at risk when this becomes law. Maybe even agitate with SIAM (I hope I got this correct).

Use social media like FB/Twitter.........more ideas???

Believe me even small efforts by every one can start a tide of opinions. Let us organise ourselves.
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Old 24th August 2009, 08:24   #26
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@Sudev - I started a thread on the safety on the roads subject the day I joined this forum, that was meant to stir up some introspection on the subject. I believe very firmly in the be the change you want to see philosophy. There has been very little support to the sentiment, because this is not a philosophy that most people like - and we Indians lead the world in our dislike of it.
Therefore, to your organize ourselves call - we are organized. We even have a title. The definitive Indian car community. But what is the agenda around which we are organized? Should it be safety on the roads, which is a national shame? And before we raise a voice in public on this subject, do we, as an organization and a community, today have a right for our voice to be heard? Not just because we can talk, but because we have done enough ourselves to have earned that right? Do we even want that right? For sure, we cannot get it if we do not do all it will take to earn it.
If you read that thread, you will see that most people think that change is not something that starts with them, and neither does it need to. And there are many examples quoted of TBHPians being as much of louts and criminals on the roads as the worst offenders.
If we are to organize ourselves against this measure, I am afraid it will be seen for what it is - the guys owning and driving the flashy cars are now uncomfortable about their skins, which is the sole reason for their suddenly having found a voice, so they can continue doing all that they have been doing, with impunity.
We all talk about existing laws being enforced - how many of us can look into a mirror and say that we have not broken any. We cannot, because in our book, enforcement does not start with me. Once the law has been enforced on every one else, I will fall in line, is the common thinking.
If we are not willing to do what it takes to provide examples of good governance, we will have to learn to live with what gets handed down to us.
PS: Maybe this is a good time for the community to take a call on whether it wants to be one that wishes to have a voice on the subject. By being the change it wants to see on the roads in India, because any other kind of raising of the voice will get lost in the great Indian cacophony. Deciding to not do so is also a valid choice. But then one has to be mindful of the consequences of the choice, and still make it.
Getting the voice is not going to happen overnight, but a thousand mile journey starts with a single step. As was the journey that led to automakers now starting to take cognizance of the TBHP. That one took 5 years, this one may even take longer. As in all journeys, it is the will to take the first step and then to never stop taking the next steps, that matters.

Last edited by Sawyer : 24th August 2009 at 08:44. Reason: PS
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Old 24th August 2009, 08:59   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
...do we, as an organization and a community, today have a right for our voice to be heard? Not just because we can talk, but because we have done enough ourselves to have earned that right? Do we even want that right?
Great, Sawyer, that's a hard-hitting emotion-packed analysis there. Woke me up right and proper!

Sure, we have a right for our collective voice to be heard. That right is bestowed on us by the Constitution of India. But then, who's listening?

For a country where rules governing the use of helmets by two-wheeler riders cannot be enforced uniformly for a hundred reasons, new laws won't help any but the gentlemen in uniform who will get a better excuse to line their own pockets.

I'm generally optimistic, but this is one topic where I am not.
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Old 24th August 2009, 09:02   #28
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I am all for clamping cown on bad drivers. But the common method of making the law more stringent (may be even draconian) is not the answer. It is the enforcement which is the issue. We let people get away with minor offences like red light jumping, condone and even encourage under-age drivers.

Making the offense non-bailable will give the police more powers to harass, and I am sure that a large fraction of accidents are caused by the other party. The current law that the 'bigger' vehicle is at fault needs reexamination.

I will suggest keep the non-bailable clause for drunken drivers. I have ZERO sympathy for them.

Last edited by sgiitk : 24th August 2009 at 09:16.
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Old 24th August 2009, 09:05   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Great, Sawyer, that's a hard-hitting emotion-packed analysis there. Woke me up right and proper!

Sure, we have a right for our collective voice to be heard. That right is bestowed on us by the Constitution of India. But then, who's listening?
, Good morning! And this was dispassionate, you haven't seen emotion packed
And I will have to research this, but there is no constitutional right to be heard, because there is no constitutional duty to listen! All the constitution does is gives you a right to talk. You want to be heard, be in the places where the listening is supposed to happen.
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Old 24th August 2009, 11:24   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I am all for clamping cown on bad drivers. But the common method of making the law more stringent (may be even draconian) is not the answer. It is the enforcement which is the issue. We let people get away with minor offences like red light jumping, condone and even encourage under-age drivers.

Making the offense non-bailable will give the police more powers to harass, and I am sure that a large fraction of accidents are caused by the other party. The current law that the 'bigger' vehicle is at fault needs reexamination.

I will suggest keep the non-bailable clause for drunken drivers. I have ZERO sympathy for them.
I agree with this approach.

One other issue we have today with the current law is the bigger vehicle is always at fault irrespective of what happened during the accident. This has to be revamped and there has to be a justified argument as to who was at fault at the time of accident.
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