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Old 5th August 2005, 14:27   #16
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Old 5th August 2005, 14:56   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho
Rtech: What are the minimum numbers to be produced to homogolate the car? (Homogolation Specials)
1500 cars minimum. 600 if it's TC 4WD!
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Old 5th August 2005, 17:40   #18
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Well that's just too much.....but drags dont need any such production numbers..and can get some serious advertising mileage for the car....

If I'm not mistaken, San tried to do the same at Mumbai Speedrun'05..?
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Old 5th August 2005, 18:40   #19
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In case you dont build that number, can you avoid the whole Homolgation deal altogether
(as is dione in the UK to promote small car manufacturers?

How does Chinkara manage??

Or DC for that matter, or are they Quasi legal?
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Old 6th August 2005, 03:39   #20
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hey im in !! any help needed!! i m a 2nd yr mech engg student doin cad(comp aided design!!) i think its a great idea!!
-but i think it would only be feasible to be more realistic and try and redo a car rather than start from scratch and build a chasis , etc.!!!
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Old 6th August 2005, 13:06   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
For this kind of project to take off, I am assuming that there will be a big bucks bankroller to back it. A budget of 100 crores at the very least to design, develop and manufacture the car
err...a 100 crores budget does not say enthusiast. backing from bankroller also does not say enthusiast.

not writing off your views, but the whole point of my query was to the contrary.
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Old 6th August 2005, 16:21   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_rider
err...a 100 crores budget does not say enthusiast. backing from bankroller also does not say enthusiast.

not writing off your views, but the whole point of my query was to the contrary.
I'm sorry, hell_rider, but I started this as a separate thread to encourage debate on whether or not India should have its own sportscar...I hadn't even seen your thread while writing this...

But, since you have taken up issue:

Why should big money mean that the guy backing it is not an enthusiast....Look at John Bloor (Triumph)....Look at Panoz...Look at Callaway Cars....

And let's be practical, peanuts is not going to get us a half-decent sportscar that people will actually buy... You yourself have condemned the Chinkara saying, in effect, that it isn't even half-decent..while in reality, it may be...we don't know...we just ASSUME that the car is so because its a "bitsa", put together with parts from various cars and not having the glamour/history of a thorough-bred sportscar company....

It isn't the engineering that's going to cost money on such a car.....With what little knowledge I have, even I can build exactly the car that I have proposed in a year or even less, working weekends, yet, nobody is going to buy it....because money needs to be spent to convince people that you have world-class engineering in your car, money needs to be spent to build your brand, and I am not talking about convincing enthusiasts; we know a good car when we see one, its the general public who needs to know all of this, cause only then can such a car get the volumes in.....
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Old 6th August 2005, 20:50   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
we don't know...we just ASSUME that the car is so because its a "bitsa", put together with parts from various cars and not having the glamour/history of a thorough-bred sportscar company....
It is true that no sports car company has ever only used its own experiences while their starting days even people like Caroll Shelby used ford parts for his work..

However to even dream that one can build a sports car and immediately build it would be wrong... considering all the factors would we even be able to build a simple and robust sports car like a fiat spyder 124 I really doubt it... This statement is not to put people off but to make sure that we understand the term cult following that actually leads to a car / builder succeding in the market. It need not be on the street but it would be valued at least on the tracks.

As for the tracks definition no sports car will make it out on the drag circuit as the drag circuit only provides info on the best tuner's and the engine and not the complete package. The rightful place for any new sports car to prove its worth would be first on circuit racing and then on the rally scene if required....

As for the vitara engined setup I agree we might not be able to break ground with a 700 kg setup but it gives you a robust platform that could be lapped up immediately on launch...

As we actively keep discussing this, I would be ready to give up my job to take on a project like this (provided I can continue feeding my family) but how many of us would only discuss rather than build???

Well as for the 100 crores bit I disagree one of the pioneers in bike building built his best bike in his garage (BRITTEN)... cmon lets get realistic money only helps push innovation but the drive to innovate is the key...
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Old 6th August 2005, 21:41   #24
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hell-rider,

i think you opened up a pandora's box - because your question is not just true for the auto industry, it's true for any other industry as well, where passion and enthusiasm for products form and integral part of the consumer sales - like high end audio - for example.

i do believe that knowledge, passion, expertise and other positive qualities are all present in the right individuals in india - but do these same people have the money to take these things forward - after all, any manufacturing unit does cost big bucks. the only way is to get someone to sponsor them - then the bottom line becomes sales and return of investment, which eventually dilutes the passion.

we need a combination of people with expertise and cash - and who share the same passion, so that they can stick it out in the long term - convincing people on an individual basis is painstakingly long and frustrating.

here lies the dilemna - so does anybody with cash have the guts to sponsor anyone with brains? lets have a show of hands!!!
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Old 6th August 2005, 22:47   #25
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I dont understand we are debating whether a project like this can be pulled off. San motors just did it a few years ago.

In fact they did it the hard way, by going with imported drivetrain and a convertible top.

They were doomed from the beginning because of their choice of the car's configuration, but otherwise the execution was decent except for small niggles.

They tried to build a sports car that looked like a chick car and could hardly keep up with a Santro. Of course, convertibles are simply not usable in India.....a country where everybody wants to keep the sun away.

If there is anybody who can do a sports car for India, it is San, because they already have the entire production facilities. Its just that they need to start with a clean sheet of paper design.

Last edited by Mpower : 6th August 2005 at 22:49.
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Old 6th August 2005, 23:36   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho
However to even dream that one can build a sports car and immediately build it would be wrong... considering all the factors would we even be able to build a simple and robust sports car like a fiat spyder 124 I really doubt it...
Well that depends on what you are building it for...if its a one-off or a proto then it wouldn't take much of an effort, as compared to mass production..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho
As for the tracks definition no sports car will make it out on the drag circuit as the drag circuit only provides info on the best tuner's and the engine and not the complete package. The rightful place for any new sports car to prove its worth would be first on circuit racing and then on the rally scene if required....
I suggested drag because it has a wide audience base here in India, more importantly, in major cities like Mumbai, Hyd, Delhi, Bangalore etc...If its a track event, not many people get to see the action...Sriperumbudur is a disaster as far as pulling audiences is concerned...I do agree with rallying though...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho
As we actively keep discussing this, I would be ready to give up my job to take on a project like this
I would too....!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho
Well as for the 100 crores bit I disagree one of the pioneers in bike building built his best bike in his garage (BRITTEN)... cmon lets get realistic money only helps push innovation but the drive to innovate is the key...

Britten...he was innovative, but he did not get into the mass market and production of bikes (didnt intend to, either)...Innovation is one thing, and commercial success is quite another....In these days of DTS-i and eRLX, marketing is just as important as innovation is...that s where all the money goes, not in the innovation part....you know in TVS we had a saying "Ideas are inversely proportional to money", and I totally agree with that
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Old 6th August 2005, 23:48   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
I dont understand we are debating whether a project like this can be pulled off. San motors just did it a few years ago.
We are only looking at this whole issue from enthusiasts' point of view..since Team BHP is a group of enthusiasts, we would be buyers of such a car if it were ever to be produced..And San hasn't pulled it off. If it had, we would have seen atleast a few Storms on the road


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
If there is anybody who can do a sports car for India, it is San, because they already have the entire production facilities. Its just that they need to start with a clean sheet of paper design.
Anyone with money to invest and half-decent technical expertise can pull off a project like this...believe me, to set up production facilities for a car like this wont take much...a basic body shop, a welding shop and an assembly shop will do....major headaches like aluminum machining and painting dont even exist with a project like this....
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Old 6th August 2005, 23:56   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
We are only looking at this whole issue from enthusiasts' point of view..since Team BHP is a group of enthusiasts, we would be buyers of such a car if it were ever to be produced..And San hasn't pulled it off. If it had, we would have seen atleast a few Storms on the road..
They pulled it off in the sense that it was manufactured and available in showrooms. Was it a commercial success......No. But one of the others.....whether it was the Kari 65, Chinkara or Chappele came even remotely close to what San has achieved today. I would definetly give the San engineers a lot of credit. They were let down by poor product planning.

Last edited by Mpower : 7th August 2005 at 00:09.
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Old 7th August 2005, 00:51   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
Hence, the entire engine/gearbox assembly right upto the driveshafts should be taken off a FWD Indian-built car,like for instance, the Ikon...I suggest a Ford only because they are not averse to selling engines in small numbers to specialist car companies...look at the scene in Britain.
Naturally, this should be mounted in a mid/rear config to drive the rear wheels....Mods from the factory should be restricted to ECU, intake and exhaust only. (due to homologation issues)....
This is identical to the Elise formula. I agree its a good one.....simple and effective. I would pick a high revving fully indegenized engine with a Aluminum block with a 16V head rather than the Ikon lump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
Front Suspension - No car that we have in India today has a front suspension good enough for a thorough-bred sports car. So, it should be custom-made in the factory. A double-wishbone design is a given. the wishbones should be tubular with polygraphite-bushed rod-ends. The ball-joints and uprights should, as far as possible, be from existing Indian cars.....
Throughbred sports cars like the M3 and 911 use McPherson front suspensions. Its all in the spring and damper tuning. You can always adjust the camber and castor if you wanted. Graphite rod ends for India? Car would just self destruct. These things dont even last on European roads....strictly for track use only. I would go with stiff rubber bushings.

Steering can be manual due to the low front weight. Will give better feel and feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
Is all this impossible? You tell me, guys....
Yes, but we still have only a rolling chassis. There are many other little things to consider.

Styling
Dash and Gauges
Fuel system
Exhuast
Lights
Electrical Wiring
Glass
Wipers

Like they say.....the devil is in the details. Not trying to discourage anyone....just that I had thought of all this before. Need a combination of enthusiast and an entrepreneur to make this happen not to mention a millionaire financier.

Last edited by Mpower : 7th August 2005 at 01:03.
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Old 7th August 2005, 15:57   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
I'm sorry, hell_rider, but I started this as a separate thread to encourage debate on whether or not India should have its own sportscar...I hadn't even seen your thread while writing this...

But, since you have taken up issue:

Why should big money mean that the guy backing it is not an enthusiast....Look at John Bloor (Triumph)....Look at Panoz...Look at Callaway Cars....

And let's be practical, peanuts is not going to get us a half-decent sportscar that people will actually buy... You yourself have condemned the Chinkara saying, in effect, that it isn't even half-decent..while in reality, it may be...we don't know...we just ASSUME that the car is so because its a "bitsa", put together with parts from various cars and not having the glamour/history of a thorough-bred sportscar company....

It isn't the engineering that's going to cost money on such a car.....With what little knowledge I have, even I can build exactly the car that I have proposed in a year or even less, working weekends, yet, nobody is going to buy it....because money needs to be spent to convince people that you have world-class engineering in your car, money needs to be spent to build your brand, and I am not talking about convincing enthusiasts; we know a good car when we see one, its the general public who needs to know all of this, cause only then can such a car get the volumes in.....

ananth...

a thousand apologies....i did not pay attention to the merging of the threads.

back to the point,

i don't think it will need something like a 100 crores...rather if we are going to wait for someone to put up a 100 crores to finance an enthusiast project, it is never going to happen.

it has to be done like mentioned in the start...nothing fancy, but fundamentals well in place. there are lot of qualified people here with their basics very strong who can help out in the technical aspects.

now i'm just thinking out aloud here.....
It need not be a commercial success because that is not the objective. it is to see if it can be done, and once done, if it can be improved. it could, say for e.g. be a Team-Bhp initiative, one car is built.....and any team-bhp member who was part of the project can borrow it for the weekend or whatever at a nominal price or something. and we constantly keep refining it. we use local content so that maintenance or parts are not issues etc etc.

I am talking about being involved in something F..U..N. while trying to buid something good.

that is what enthusiast initiative is to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cream
i do believe that knowledge, passion, expertise and other positive qualities are all present in the right individuals in india - but do these same people have the money to take these things forward - after all, any manufacturing unit does cost big bucks. the only way is to get someone to sponsor them - then the bottom line becomes sales and return of investment, which eventually dilutes the passion.
bang on target cream !!!! which is why we do not need big budgets and a bankroller because he/she will be looking for returns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cream
we need a combination of people with expertise and cash - and who share the same passion, so that they can stick it out in the long term
i don't know about long term in that in what context you mean "long term". what we need is a group of people passionate about cars and who want to build one, primary objective NOT being a "commercial success". rather it being indulging in your passion. given a reasonably large group, small contributions will go a long way. new contributors/members to the project can also be admitted freely. Also since the primary purpose is also to enjoy the whole experience, we do not have an issue of any deadline as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
Need a combination of enthusiast and an entrepreneur to make this happen not to mention a millionaire financier.
like i mentioned above, no, we do not need a millionaire financier. small contributions from a reasonably large group will also get the job done. and remember, EVERYBODY can contribute. not all contributions need to be in cash. we need expertise in this field. we have technically sound people here in this forum. we need space/ a workshop. surely someone can loan us that in the weekends. we need someone to sit and style the car..we have those people too. we need someone to administer and track progress...a lot of us can do that... and so on and so forth....

how is subroto roy one of the richest men in the country? one in 17 indians have invested in him. thats a bloody impressive statistic. who are these people? poor people deep in the hinterlands, who invest in his small saving schemes. 5 rupees a day or 50 rupees a month or something as small as that. look where he is today.

small makes big.
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