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Old 5th September 2009, 15:32   #121
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I remember a road test featured in one of the magazines many years back (can't remember which one) comparing mid sizers like accent, baleno, city etc and the magazine had selected the 100BHP+ accent tornado model for the test. I distinctly remember the quote "..Korean horses seem to be weaker than Japanese horses.." this was with reference to the City and Baleno having better performance than the Accent. I found it quite amusing back then but can't really comment on the authenticity of this comment as I've never driven the Accent tornado.
The prob with Korean horses is that they have to move a much heavier chassis. So even though they boast of 100+bhp, the extra weight makes the car feel slow.

The diesels on the other hand face a similar prob but the torque figures come to the rescue.

The Verna petrol is 89bhp/ton while the Verna Diesel is 93bhp/ton. A 4bhp/ton gain shouldn't really make that big a diff. But just look at the acc specs....

0-60
P - 5.21
D - 4.54

0-80
P - 8.24
D - 7.33

0-100
P - 12.45
D - 10.61

0-120
P - 17.95
D - 15.39

0-140
P - 27.30
D - 21.49

0-150
P - 34
D - 25

What really makes the diff is the torque to weight ratio which is 126nm/ton for the petrol and 200nm/ton for the diesel.

PS : Stock vs stock, the Verna D and OHC Vtec both do 0-160 in 33secs even though the OHC is 14bhp/ton more than the Verna D.

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Last edited by Shan2nu : 5th September 2009 at 15:36.
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Old 5th September 2009, 16:12   #122
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Shan, do you have similar figures from 0-160kmph for the Lancer, Baleno, NHC, Elantra, Getz D & Magnum?
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Old 5th September 2009, 18:58   #123
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Shan, do you have similar figures from 0-160kmph for the Lancer, Baleno, NHC, Elantra, Getz D & Magnum?
No, but you might be able to find them in the roadtest performance sheet in one of the mags.

The RS used to do 0-160 in 22.xxsecs and the 221bhp Accord V6 was around 19.xx secs

Im sure the 270bhp version will be much quicker.

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Old 5th September 2009, 22:15   #124
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Honestly, I don't think there's a bias here against Hyundais. So a lot of people have blocked out mentions of Fiat on their browsers. Does that mean they're biased against Fiat?

Let me put things in perspective. I've owned, nursed, used (and abused), ripped, raced and pretty much done everything possible in and to a Santro for 5 long years. The interiors on that car were better than anything else in the market at that time, it felt a lot better put together than either the Zen or Wagon R, and the 1.0l engine could spank a Wagon R in a straight line -- and it did. Which is why your comment below strikes me as being hollow, or atleast uninformed.
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Thats not entirely true. Infact, Elantra has pretty decent interiors. The getz interiors are way better and fit is much better than the rattly swift. The I20 interiors are also pretty nice. I think this notion is mainly from the Santro days?
The Santro interiors were great, and didn't fade even after 5 years. I can't say the same for most MUL products. No rattles/squeaks after 70k kms either, and a lot of those kms were on bad roads at ridiculous speeds.

Hyundai sales -- atleast in BLR -- and A.S.S. is pretty good. When I went to Advaith, their TD Elantra was out and I couldn't wait. The next time, I went again, and there was a similar incident. To make up for it, they gave me their GM's personal car. Not something you'd do to a young guy with long hair in shorts, even if he was a prior customer. My Hyundai experience was pleasant, more so because of Advaith, Trident, and the Santro, which was a great little car. In fact, for some time, it was the highest selling car in India, bar none.

Will I buy another Hyundai again? Not in the foreseaable future. Here's why --

They are uninspiring. I drove the first Getz in Bangalore, before it was launched and given out to test-drives (know the owner of a dealership). I was impressed by the stability at high speeds on the then-new Hebbal flyover's sweeping curves, but the 1.3 engine was a dead duck. An Esteem would have left it for dead. And the interiors were, well, boring. Atleast the Santro was funky, with cool round vents and an oyster-shaped cluster.

They handle badly. Remember the Accent? Flat out into a corner, flick the car left, in preparation for a right, but the damn thing just kept ploughing straight. I have never been so terrified in my life. The Accent defined understeer for me. And you can keep going on about an Elantra -- but I'm sorry, any car with a long nose that has a large cast iron block in the front and is very nose-heavy isn't a good handler. Or our definitions of handling vary hugely. I think the Swift is a great handler. The Verna is another boat of a car. It just wallows. Two rally drivers were asked to test the Verna and Fiesta around MMST. The Verna ploughed ahead on the straights, but the Fiesta just spanked it in the corners. And the Verna has, what, 60% MORE power than the Fiesta. That's a telling story.

They have weird petrol engines. The Accent GTX Tornado, with 101 or so Korean horses, would hardly be faster than an Esteem. Ideally, you should have been able to compare it to a Vtec. They weighed about the same, give or take. But the Accent couldn't hold a candle to the Honda. Same with the Getz, the p/w ratio versus the Swift is almost identical, but the Swift is a lot quicker. Korean horses are underfed? Sure looks like it.

They do get expensive after a while. There are a couple of threads about how the Accent's axles have to be changed after about 75k kms and they cost 40k. How would you like to do that to your Getz, having bought it because it was a bargain? My Santro certainly did have niggles after 65k kms, things that shouldn't have happened, and didn't on my Baleno.

They look odd. The Elantra -- put it up against an Octavia, a Civic, or even an Optra like Rudra's. It is clearly the ugly duckling -- and while looks may be subjective, a lot of people evidently thought so. You hear people saying they bought their Octy just 'because it looks so handsome' or the Civic just 'because it's so sleek and futuristic'. Ever hear that with an Elantra? Can the Accent win a beauty contest against a Type 2 Honda 1.3? The Santro was saved by the original Wagon R, which was probably even uglier.

Rahul, in the end, however well you may mean, no one will take the thread seriously because ultimately it is not posted by a Hyundai owner. You could have bought a Getz CRDi when you bought the Swift, but you didn't. When you wanted to buy a Mivec/turbo the Baleno, you didn't consider the Elantra. Don't get me wrong here, but you can't really espouse a cause unless you believe in it, and there is only one way to prove it.

And yes, the Swift IMHO is a better car than the Getz. It handles much better and more directly, and it can be modified in terms of suspension and handling more easily than a Getz. These two things are important to me, and I will happily choose a car with 20 hp less that is more involving to drive. I humbly submit that if you upgrade the rubber on your car, it will be a lot more fun to drive.
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Old 5th September 2009, 23:03   #125
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Hyundai petrols have never been its strong hold (save the Santro, which was still quicker than the zen's). The OHC & Baleno were much quicker than the Accent. Infact, the Accent's engine would be comparable to the Lancer's engine which dished out much less power. However the new Kappa engines seem to be pretty good.
Santro was better than original Zen in city. On the highway above 100 kmph, it was Zen. This is true for F10D as well. I have driven Santro,Zen ( original but 60 bhp version ) and Wagon R, all loaded. The true power with Santro in inside city, but on the highway, if its asked to perform consistently at high speeds, it becomes apparent that F10D and G10 had better performance at top end.

About Kappa, it was good untill K series came out. K series is better than kappa, but here my experience if not much.
Accent Torando was not at a very big weight disadvantage that it would perform inferior to Baleno/Esteem/G1HC.

Initially they could fight, but now Hyundai is making good sales in sedans only because of diesels.

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Old 6th September 2009, 01:55   #126
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agree with vip3r above and yet hyundai is getting better and closer to suzuki in india.

India as a nation is typically different from the rest of the world as a buyer and hero honda (indian version) vs even the honda itself in the bikes category is another example.

Suzuki means japanese quality to indians and also cheap no hassel ownership. Hyundai means korean (have owed a daiwoo Cileo before) and though technically the product can be more modern than the suzuki it usually is also heavier on the pocket to maintain.
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Old 6th September 2009, 09:56   #127
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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
agree with vip3r above and yet hyundai is getting better and closer to suzuki in india.
In India no, but worldwide Hyundai has got the measure and more of at least this Japanese competitor. Look at 1999-2010 sales figs. Both Hyundai and Suzuki do largely compete in the same segments in India, and Hyundai seems to have stagnated at the 15-17% share of Indian market, while Suzuki varies between 45-50%.

Suzuki has been around for a long time in India, and it takes a long time (generation or more) for a company to gain or lose it in most of the customers' mind.
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Old 6th September 2009, 11:01   #128
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I'm not an absolute blind Hyundai fan but will give Hyundai a lot of credit for introducing CRDi in Indian market for the common man else we still would have had only old gen diesels ( Indica and Indigos TDIs) as the only options in diesel.

It all started with Accent CRDi, it had a very noisy raw 3 pot AVL engine but it was fast and fuel efficient. On the long run (>75k kms), lots of reliability issues popped up, and, finally they discontinued the CRDi model.

Then, they unleashed chaos in form of Verna CRDi with VGT. Still after 3 years of its launch there aren't many cars in sub 15 lacs which can keep up with the speed boat in terms of acceleration.

All i'm saying is, they deserve huge credit for introducing the CRDi and then VGT technology. Their Petrol engines ain't great but they have definitely improved a lot since the launch of Santro.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Also, most Hyundai cars run diesel engines from "Detroit Diesel" and for those engines that are made in India, the tech is borrowed from DD. So its not all Korean ..
Verna and Getz diesels are korean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Shan, do you have similar figures from 0-160kmph for the Lancer, Baleno, NHC, Elantra, Getz D & Magnum?
My Getz did 0-160 in 27 secs. Add 2 secs as i was using a stop watch.

Last edited by kpzen : 6th September 2009 at 11:03.
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Old 6th September 2009, 11:57   #129
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My Getz did 0-160 in 27 secs. Add 2 secs as i was using a stop watch.
Dont believe speedo readings. Even an error of 5kmph can make 160 come up 4-5 secs faster.

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Old 6th September 2009, 16:21   #130
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I agree with vip3r but suzuki/maruti as the market leader was unchallenged for long till hyundai and daewoo came in. While the world had changed to mpfi, maruti was till selling the old style carb m800s. Competition is good and maruti suzuki is a changed company now.

As kpzen put it, the lower cost performance diesels have come in from hyundai. They have opened the segment.

Now, hyundai is selling autoboxes and it will not be long before maruti/suzuki gets into this segment and gives hyundai a run for their money.

Tata, the other competition for maruti suzuki just does not have the technical prowess to take on suzuki in the long run. Thats why they need partner fiat.

Anyway, hyundai is concentrating more on exports than on domestic selling. The result of a global product and selling in india - take the 120, is keeping the competition on its toes.
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Old 6th September 2009, 16:36   #131
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Yup! If only it had better suspension to handle that power. Btw, it shares the same block as the Elantra, slight design change in the head, bigger turbo and voila. You have a rocket!
So ideally one should buy a Magnum and mod only the suspension (if available).
I hope Magnum prices would be lowered for the intro of Cruze.
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Old 6th September 2009, 21:02   #132
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Originally Posted by srijit View Post
So ideally one should buy a Magnum and mod only the suspension (if available).
You get very good stuff for the Magnum -- from H&R and Weitec/KW and I think Koni. Unfortunately, there isn't much of a fanclub here for the car, so we don't hear much of it.
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Old 7th September 2009, 01:49   #133
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Which is why your comment below strikes me as being hollow, or atleast uninformed.
Akshay, take time to read my post. I have clearly mentioned the Santro was faster than the Zen. That in itself is a compliment to the engine. The Santro petrol engine was one of the better engines Hyundai dished out. If only they hadn't made it a tall boy.

Quote:
I was impressed by the stability at high speeds on the then-new Hebbal flyover's sweeping curves, but the 1.3 engine was a dead duck.
The first gen Getz's were good handlers. I wonder why Hyundai screwed up the suspension for the Crdi.

Quote:
They handle badly. Remember the Accent? Flat out into a corner, flick the car left, in preparation for a right, but the damn thing just kept ploughing straight. I have never been so terrified in my life.
Yes! I remember that drive in my aunt's accent. Personally, the accents steering was one of the most non-responsive steerings I have ever driven. But for a common man, I don't think they are that discerning lot like us.

Quote:
And you can keep going on about an Elantra -- but I'm sorry, any car with a long nose that has a large cast iron block in the front and is very nose-heavy isn't a good handler. Or our definitions of handling vary hugely.
To someone who drives an RS that runs on rods I don't think you understand the need to be able to use the same car on our highways too. I have personally had a stiffened suspension on the Baleno, its a pain to drive on bad roads. Its scary, because you feel the strut is going to make its way out of the bonnet, everytime you hit a pothole and it makes a ear deafening sound. I think I have driven the car enough on the highways at good speeds and done a few quick laps on track to say its handles well. But then again, I wonder what you are comparing it to? Baleno? Lancer? OHC? RS? That would be just foolish. When I say it handles well, its probably the best handler in that class of diesel cars for the speeds it can manage. On a highway its pretty tough for an RS to leave a Pete'd Elantra behind. The Tdi, Magnum don't stand a chance when it comes to handling, one doesn't move, the other is far from being a good handler.

Quote:
Korean horses are underfed? Sure looks like it.
For sure when it comes to the petrols. But their strong hold is the diesels. How many petrol Verna's have you seen around? I know two people who own one and I was confused asto why would anyone buy a Verna P and not the Crdi. The common answer was, diesels are too noisy. IMO, its not like the Amby days anymore, yet people don't see how the diesels have come off age.


Quote:
How would you like to do that to your Getz, having bought it because it was a bargain?
I have a few friends who have a Getz P and they haven't had any issues even after clocking 80k kms. I have seen Tadu's elantra clock 1.2L and its not had issues. By that logic, swift has had multiple clutch failure stories. Does that mean every Maruti has bad clutches? No!

Quote:
My Santro certainly did have niggles after 65k kms, things that shouldn't have happened, and didn't on my Baleno.
You know as much as I do, how badly you have abused the Santro. Baleno has had its share of track days, but thats on well tarmacked roads and not non-existent ones the Santro had to go through.

Quote:
They look odd. The Elantra
I find this weird coming from someone who owned a not so good looking car, one that grew on you with each passing day, the Baleno. Honestly, I have started to like the Elantra looks, similar to how the Baleno looks start to grow on you.

Quote:
you could have bought a Getz CRDi when you bought the Swift, but you didn't.
Dude! I always wanted to buy a Getz instead of the swift. But the car was for my bro (who still hasn't learnt to drive btw) and he was insistent on buying a swift. Infact, they booked the swift and took delivery when I wasn't in town. Had I been I would have made sure we ended up with the Getz. But I am sure, you aren't aware of this.

Besides, I am sure you know how my dad was scared by my aunt who had a Accent which in word can be summed up as a LEMON.

Infact, last afternoon dad dropped me to Rajeev's office. He saw the Getz and said "I should have listened to you and bough the Getz instead of the swift". That says something. You know dads a perfectionist, the way the swift rattles has had him really worried. If he sells the swift, he looses nearly 1.8L and he will then have to shell out another lakh for a Getz Crdi. Which IMO he doesn't want to do because its pointless buying a new car and letting my bro and mom learn driving on it. He is hoping that both of them learn to drive on the swift and once they do, he mostly will be looking at picking up the I20. But this won't be atleast for another year. I did ask him to sell the swift and buy a 2nd hang Getz, but you of all people must know how my parents will never agree to buy a 2nd hand car. This is the convo we had at Rajeev's office.

Quote:
When you wanted to buy a Mivec/turbo the Baleno, you didn't consider the Elantra.
Akshay! I find your statement quite out of context. If you noticed, the need was for a PETROL car and NEVER a diesel back in those days. If I was looking at buying a diesel, I would have picked up the Elantra eyes closed. Infact at one point of time, I had nearly sold the baleno to pick up an Elantra but then because of F&F I decided to keep the Baleno with me till it rots to dust/I die.

Quote:
and it can be modified in terms of suspension and handling more easily than a Getz. These two things are important to me
Eibach makes suspension for the Getz, I think one of the boys will be trying it out at some point. So I shall reserve my final word on that once I drive it with the Eibach's. Currently, I have been driving the car quite often at speeds close to maxxing out the speedo, honestly, I haven't had any issues of concern like I would with an accent. You guys are just blowing it out of proportion, me thinks.

Quote:
I humbly submit that if you upgrade the rubber on your car, it will be a lot more fun to drive.
Honestly, swift is not a car that enduces the fun factor for me in stock P & D forms. And this is one car that is going to remain stock for a long time to come. I have no say in making decisions on the swift, that car on paper is my brothers, I drive it till he learns to drive it himself. Infact, if I utter the word mod on the Swift, dad will run me over with the car .

I have driven Louis' swift with better engine upgrades and tires. Honestly, if a stock swift came that way, I would probably still give it a miss from my garage. Being so enthu about cars, I still haven't started a thread or a garage for the swift. That itself must show my opinion about the car. All that is good is the suspension and chassis.

I am eagerly awaiting to test the I20 my friend has picked up recently on the Chennai highway.

I respect your care for my well being, but I would rather appreciate if you took the amount of time you took to write this post to instead get me what I have been waiting for for 2 weeks now .

PS: For someone who doesn't own either of these cars and sings such high praises of them must mean something right? If one owns the cars and goes gaga over it, he would mostly be accused of being a fanboy or patronizing ones own brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
Verna and Getz diesels are korean.
I know. I said most cars run engines from DD (Sonata, Tuscon, Elantra, Accent). The Verna is produced inhouse wit the tech derived from DD IIRC.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 7th September 2009 at 01:55.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:26   #134
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post

The first gen Getz's were good handlers. I wonder why Hyundai screwed up the suspension for the Crdi.
Why do u say so?
CRDi has a very beefed up suspension whereas the Getz P had a very soft suspension.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
I know. I said most cars run engines from DD (Sonata, Tuscon, Elantra, Accent). The Verna is produced inhouse wit the tech derived from DD IIRC.
Accent had an AVL engine.
Verna has KIA engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Dont believe speedo readings. Even an error of 5kmph can make 160 come up 4-5 secs faster.

Shan2nu
Thats exactly why i mentioned to add 2 secs

Last edited by kpzen : 7th September 2009 at 09:32.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:35   #135
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These two articles shed some light on the development of Korean auto industry. Remember these are dated and do not take into account the recent progress made from the early days. Some interesting things:
1. First Hyundai export of cars was under barter for bananas from Ecuador!!!
2. Hyundai has to thank its Japanese rivals for being so successful in the US market, that in the mid-1990s, Japanese had to voluntary restrain exports. result: huge demand and waiting periods for Hyundai's Excel, which was anything but that.
3. In the 1990s, Hyundai gained by standing by its dramatic improvement by perhaps offering a 1 lakh km warranty.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Hyundai 1989.pdf (867.6 KB, 1891 views)
File Type: pdf Korea Industry 1992.pdf (342.1 KB, 5775 views)

Last edited by vasudeva : 7th September 2009 at 09:37.
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