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Old 20th September 2009, 16:52   #136
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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
My Civic has INR 750 + taxes as cost per minor service. I suppose you think I'm lying? An oil change service with synthetic oil costs less than 3000 (including taxes). I suppose that's a lie too. See the attached page.

Point of the matter is, if you have the time, patience and love for your car to take care of minor things like the interiors by yourself, it is as cheap as they say it is.

I have 8 years of Honda bills from City to Crv which can prove otherwise (bought new), please read carefully before you take the trouble of posting up bills. I said bare minimum service charge of all these brands will be under 1500k INR which will include service charge and oil, oil filter. But that is not cheap service in my book coz there are many more things that come up during regular service of all these vehicles including Honda.

If you want to feel happy about the cheap service i suggest you buy a maruti vehicle, bill will be under 1000 bucks with service and oil change with Servo

EDIT: Any of these modern design cars will run flawlessly without break downs if regular service is done, but does that mean that one doesn't have to do basics like wheel alignment (every 5-7k kms), brake cleaning (every 10k kms), filter change, fluid change- gear oil, coolant, brake fluid (20k kms)?

Yes they will still run. But when one takes care of such stuff the bill goes up, especially at the dealership, charges will be high compared to independent garage. But its the same for all these cars that fall under same category.

Suggestion about taking care of cars and patience, we do have it BUT when you have 2 brats in the family, sometimes simple things like interior cleaning becomes mandatory. Esp when a 2 year ol throws up the food he had on the upholstery.

That way if you ask me the cheapest bills i have seen is that of Optra's (Rudra's and my dad's) serviced by TVS BLR

EDIT 2: Reliability, well none of the cars i have owned ever broke down, for that matter even had punctures that has left us strandedN (touch wood). Number of cars will be more than 10 diff make and models, of which Honda City had AC compressor failure at 30k kms and was not covered under warranty.

I will conclude by saying that, apart from a silky engine i dont find anything special about Honda cars. I do feel they charge a premium (atleast 1 lakh plus compared to competition) thanks to our Indian junta's association of a premium tag to Honda products. I would rather use that money to spruce up the car from other brands, atleast they have some character to them and are not bloody neutral and made for the taste of fairer sex.

Last edited by Jaggu : 20th September 2009 at 17:17.
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Old 20th September 2009, 17:22   #137
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Granted City is superior than the competing sedans, but that entitles it to a max 10% premium over a similarly specced car, nothing more.

But Honda charges more and also reduces features, which makes it overpriced. It is selling only because there is no other car in its segment which is its true competition, otherwise it would have met the same fate of low sales of all other Honda models.
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Old 20th September 2009, 18:18   #138
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Best looks? That is subjective. Best engine: Okay I'll give you that one. Reliability: We don't really know since the Linea is brand new and even the SX4 and City are relatively new. Only the Fiesta can be somewhat judged. And there's things like interiors and ride and handling which matter more to some that the engine, looks or reliability.
100% Subjective. It looks the best to me. Thats why my post included a IMO.

Reliability: Hondas are one of the most reliable cars you can buy today. Period. I am of course basing this is long term experience of their other/older cars, vs. the competition.

And true, ride, handling and interiors are important as well, but again to MY mind, the engine, looks, and reliability of the car is of primary importance.
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Old 20th September 2009, 18:23   #139
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A moot point here. GTO's table indicates that ANHC has EBD but Honda calls whatever it has as "Brake Assist". But for the Civic, it has a "proper" EBD mentioned against in everywhere by Honda. Are these technologies one and the same? Somehow I thought the former was an inferior cousin.

Some education during Puja hols is welcome ;-)

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Old 20th September 2009, 18:43   #140
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EBD- Electronic brakeforce distribution or EBD or EBFD is an automobile brake technology that automatically varies the amount of force applied to each of a vehicle's brakes, based on road conditions, speed, loading, etc. Always coupled with anti-lock braking systems, EBD can apply more or less braking pressure to each wheel in order to maximize stopping power whilst maintaining vehicular control. Typically, the front end carries the most weight and EBD distributes less braking pressure to the rear brakes so the rear brakes do not lock up and cause a skid.

BA-Brake Assist is a generic term for an automobile braking technology that increases braking pressure in an emergency situation.

Taken from: Electronic Brake Force Distribution and Brake assist: 350Z / 370Z Forum: Nissan Forums / Infiniti Forums - NICOclub
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Old 20th September 2009, 18:55   #141
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Originally Posted by BurningHeart View Post
A moot point here. GTO's table indicates that ANHC has EBD but Honda calls whatever it has as "Brake Assist". But for the Civic, it has a "proper" EBD mentioned against in everywhere by Honda. Are these technologies one and the same? Somehow I thought the former was an inferior cousin.

Some education during Puja hols is welcome ;-)

BH.
No, they are not the same. EBD is Electronic Brake force Distribution. It does the same function as a brake bias valve in old cars. The advantage of the E in EBD is that it will keep the front-back bias in the recommended range even when the braking efficiency of the individual wheels change. So if a wheel is braking less because say, the pad has glazed, it will apply more hydraulic force to the caliper so that it brakes as much as it should.

Brake Assist makes sure you apply maximum braking force in case of an emergency stop. A lot of people don't really ensure they get the maximum out of their brakes when it comes to an emergency stop. What BA does is, measure the rate of release on the gas pedal and the rate of application on the brake pedal and when these things match to a certain criterion, apply maximum brake force.

Both these things have wikipedia entries with a lot more information that you can read up on.

@Jaggu : My apologies for my previous post. I was in a foul mood.
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Old 20th September 2009, 19:12   #142
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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Brake Assist makes sure you apply maximum braking force in case of an emergency stop. A lot of people don't really ensure they get the maximum out of their brakes when it comes to an emergency stop. What BA does is, measure the rate of release on the gas pedal and the rate of application on the brake pedal and when these things match to a certain criterion, apply maximum brake force.
Can you clarify why most people don't get the maximum out of their brakes? I thought if you presses the brake all the way down, then the car is slowing as fast as it can without skidding. So how exactly does it work?
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Old 20th September 2009, 20:03   #143
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Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
You are mistaken. It provides all rpm driveability including best driving conditions in the city. It also provides the highest FE, highest acceleration, 0-100, and whatever it is in the pack. And when you want to overtake on the highway, ANHC will vroom past the Linea and not be choking out of breath.
I think you need to proofread my post again. I said it doesn't justifies the 116 bhp claimed by Honda with its on-road performance. It is slower than the first generation Honda City even though it makes more power.
The acceleration and fuel efficiency is also a fallout of the feather light build when compared to other cars in its segment.
As far as highway performance is concerned only power wont do because stability and how it behaves during lanes change at high speed would result in the confidence you will have in it and it comprehensively out classed by other car in this area.

In anycase a car which can do 180 kmph is not underpowered in my opinion, it doesnt really matter what are the power and torque figures on paper.

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Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
A 2006 introduced, detuned 1.4l DOHC engine making 90ps and a measly 115NM of torque isn't worth talking about. My 6 year old Lancer will run circles around it in city and on highway with a 1.468l, SOHC, 3 valve/cylinder engine.
Linea 1.4 FIRE : 90ps @ 6000rpm, 115NM at 4500rpm
Lancer 1.5 4G15 : 87ps @ 5500rpm, 132NM at 3300rpm

Don't tell me the 1.4 Fire is great, it is bottom barrel stuff for a modern car in this class today. Would have been ok, if Fiat also launched a 1.6, and kept the 1.4 for entry level.
So tell me, what keeps this engine from easily being the worst of the lot among ANHC, Fiesta, SX4, Verna, not to mention 'old' cars like Lancer, Esteem, Corsa etc ?

The Linea desperately needs a more powerful motor. If I was buying in this segment, I won't consider it till a 1.6l plant is available for a car weighing ~1250 kgs.
So what if that engine even while pulling a 1250 kg sedan tops out at a respectable 180 kmph, delivers upwards of 16 kmpl on highways and very respectable economy in the city... its is rubbish because on paper its just has 90 bhp and 115 nm of torque. Obsession with numbers in the face of hard facts?
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Old 20th September 2009, 20:56   #144
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Can you clarify why most people don't get the maximum out of their brakes? I thought if you presses the brake all the way down, then the car is slowing as fast as it can without skidding. So how exactly does it work?
That's the issue. In an emergency, a lot of people don't press the pedal all the way down. BA is being voted in the EU to be made mandatory in all cars because surveys found that it reduces stopping distances in emergency stops in a whopping 90% of cases.

*rest of the post snipped out because it is useless*
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Old 20th September 2009, 21:00   #145
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
So what if that engine even while pulling a 1250 kg sedan tops out at a respectable 180 kmph, delivers upwards of 16 kmpl on highways and very respectable economy in the city... its is rubbish because on paper its just has 90 bhp and 115 nm of torque. Obsession with numbers in the face of hard facts?
My lancer does that. 15kmpl on the highway, 9.5kmpl in city and will easily touch 180kmph.

The Lancer has only 85bhp from a 1.5L SOHC engine. The handling of the Lancer with the same tyre size as the Linea and the ANHC is better.

So does that mean that it is sufficient and a pretty quick car even though it is 10 yrs old?

Nope, the car pretty much sucks in performance compared to the new gen cars like the Fiesta, SX4, ANHC.

I would say the ANHC is still the pick of the cars if one can stretch his budget by a wee bit.

If your budget is tight or already stretched then one is free to go for the Linea/SX4.
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Old 20th September 2009, 21:02   #146
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The only grouse I've heard is that its got below-par build-quality for that segment; some comments included that even the horn sounded tinny!

If Honda wants to improve that, no one should have anything to complain about the City.
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Old 20th September 2009, 21:09   #147
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eventually, the free market decides everything.
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Old 20th September 2009, 21:09   #148
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
The acceleration and fuel efficiency is also a fallout of the feather light build when compared to other cars in its segment.
As far as highway performance is concerned only power wont do because stability and how it behaves during lanes change at high speed would result in the confidence you will have in it and it comprehensively out classed by other car in this area.

1st of all ANHC is decently built. Calling it s feather light build is a bit too much! Also have you driven a ANHC to justify your comments?????
FYI ANHC has better highway manners( read stability) compared to previous gen City's and i gotta agree that Linea has way better ride and handling manners than the competition too.

P.S:-

Learn to accept the +ve's of other cars instead of going gagagag one a specific brand! No offence
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Old 20th September 2009, 21:29   #149
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@GTO
Your analysis is great. But what i don't like about honda or some of the brands in india is. They launched this and off-loaded their stock of old engines. Thats bad as many were given ridiculous price to exchange it to new vtec (ZX).

then came the vtec i guess without abs and ebd. later they had to introduce at added cost, to counter the launch of Zuki SX4 which was launched as it is like in international market. fully loaded. Many here cancelled the booking of NHC to go for SX4.

Now they have New New Honda city (new looks) again with a ridiculous price.

Yeah! i must agree i am too much aligned to Zuki.
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Old 20th September 2009, 21:36   #150
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
I would rather use that money to spruce up the car from other brands, atleast they have some character to them and are not bloody neutral and made for the taste of fairer sex.
Care to elaborate on that part in bold buddy?? What were u trying to do with your Hondas??
or TO your hondas??
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