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Old 20th September 2009, 21:48   #151
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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
My lancer does that. 15kmpl on the highway, 9.5kmpl in city and will easily touch 180kmph.

The Lancer has only 85bhp from a 1.5L SOHC engine. The handling of the Lancer with the same tyre size as the Linea and the ANHC is better.
And how much does your 1.5 litre engine has to pull? In anycase you are taking my post out of context. I am not comparing the performance with ANHC but saying that in itself its more than sufficient. The crucial bit is that you are under much more control while doing those speeds.

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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
So does that mean that it is sufficient and a pretty quick car even though it is 10 yrs old?
Well most of the petrol cars sold earlier had better performance compared to their newer, more modern, even more powerful counterparts. There is still no subsitute for the Palio 1.6, the Ikon 1.6 or the Baleno 1.6... they were faster even though lesser powerful.

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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
Nope, the car pretty much sucks in performance compared to the new gen cars like the Fiesta, SX4, ANHC.
It may or may not, depends only on the expectations you have from your car. Even I wouldnt buy the petrol Linea since they idea of a 1.4 litre engine in a 1250 kg car isnt compelling enough but there are owners on the forum which find the performance good enough, city or highways.
According to the initial fuel efficiency reports coming from team-bhpians, the Linea seems to be more fuel efficient when compared to the SX4 and the Fiesta 1.6

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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
I would say the ANHC is still the pick of the cars if one can stretch his budget by a wee bit.

If your budget is tight or already stretched then one is free to go for the Linea/SX4.
I said earlier people buy a car they see maximum value in. I dont find value in the ANHC... its an average car with a good engine and to me a car is sum total of all the parts and not just the engine.
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Old 20th September 2009, 21:53   #152
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Originally Posted by karanraheja View Post
1st of all ANHC is decently built. Calling it s feather light build is a bit too much! Also have you driven a ANHC to justify your comments?????
FYI ANHC has better highway manners( read stability) compared to previous gen City's and i gotta agree that Linea has way better ride and handling manners than the competition too.
I am not denying that the road manners are better than the previous gen City but then I am comparing it with its immediate competition.
Yes feather light if you compare it with the European competition. Going over a series of potholes just brings about the limitations of the car's build and road manners.

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Originally Posted by karanraheja View Post
P.S:-

Learn to accept the +ve's of other cars instead of going gagagag one a specific brand! No offence
I am not speaking out of thin air. I have driven both the ANHC and Jazz and found the ride and handling to be average compared to the Linea, Punto couplet. The engine in Jazz runs out of breath at low revs, you really need to give it a stick for it to move at a decent pace. I still maintain that 1.5 Litre Vtech engine is a good one but the whole car doesnt cut it for me... but then it could just be me.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 20th September 2009 at 21:56.
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Old 20th September 2009, 21:56   #153
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I have driven both the ANHC and Jazz and found the ride and handling to be average compared to the Linea, Punto couplet. The engine in Jazz runs out of breath at low revs, you really need to give it a stick for it to move at a decent pace. I still maintain that 1.5 Litre Vtech engine is a good one but the whole car doesnt cut it for me... but then it could just be me.
Agreed ET Bhai, even i mentioned in my previous post on ride and handling. But you didnt mention if you have driven the ANHC on highways.
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Old 20th September 2009, 22:25   #154
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
How many times have we discussed on the forum that best selling car isnt 'the best'. The ANHC by far isnt the best in its segment.
In my opinion, a car is no longer best if it cannot earn that respect from consumers and subsequently lead the pack in sales. Ultimately, consumers decide what is best in a segment.

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Linea sales arent the worst in the segment... second to Honda City and has outsold Maruti's SX4. The achievement is especially impressive when you consider the old negative baggage it has to carry and previous to it, Fiat were doing a measly 150-200 cars a month!
No doubt that Linea had a good start, but pls. see below the sales numbers for the past 4 months:
  • Linea 901 911 850 952
  • SX4 737 1090 1423 1274
  • Verna 1469 1459 1558 1519
  • ANHC 3636 2351 3268 2536
(All above statistics picked from this thread (Model specific Indian car sales - 2009).)

Quote:
It takes time to change opinions. Also it a well known fact that Indians are lousy car buyers. Virtues like handling, build and ride which are core values of any car are not important to us and we are willing to overlook everything as long as a car is fuel efficient.
No foreign car manufacturer will agree with your statement above, let alone us, Indians.


Quote:
Skoda brand was built on the fuel efficiency of the 1.9L TDi diesel and Maruti's continue to sell even though they are shoddily built (most of them).
Well, seems like you agree that Skoda and Maruti have earned their respect and not necessarily on awesome ride and handling.

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P.S. Arent we making too much fuss about the reliability part. The reliability of the other in the segment is as good or may be slightly worse but not enough to overlook the fat premium and the lack of features and the fact that it isnt the safest of the lot.
Right, we make too much fuss on reliability. Can you point to any industry that says "to heck with reliability"?
On the safety part, there are folks who have taken their cars (that belongs to the segment that we are now debating on) to 180kmph and that car didn't even have airbags or ABS. How is ANHC that offers ABS, BA and Airbags as standard in all its variants not the safest?

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Repeating the good old man here "Saying that I want Lexus because it is reliable is like saying I love my girl friend because she is punctual!". To me City has no character, yes its reliable and does the job asked of it but so does an appliance.
Can there be character without substance?

Last edited by pmbabu : 20th September 2009 at 22:32.
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Old 20th September 2009, 22:26   #155
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Linea sales arent the worst in the segment... second to Honda City and has outsold Maruti's SX4. The achievement is especially impressive when you consider the old negative baggage it has to carry and previous to it, Fiat were doing a measly 150-200 cars a month!
Highest selling petrol in the segment : G3HC.
Second highest selling petrol in the segment : SX4.
Linea sells because of diesel, similar is true for Fiesta, Verna also. Only SX4 and G3HC are the offering with only one petrol engine option. Even Accent has alternative fuel version ( IIRC ).


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Originally Posted by karanraheja View Post
FYI ANHC has better highway manners( read stability) compared to previous gen City's and i gotta agree that Linea has way better ride and handling manners than the competition too.
I have driven it. Last one month, I was more on highways than cars. Fact is somebody's health, my interview and study ( yes my life is messed up, I am already reading The Peaceful Pill Handbook ). G3HC is not good beyond 140-145 indicated. The ride at high speed is also not very good. And after the SX4, it feels tinny. The SX4 has terrific high speed stability and a better ride at high speeds as compared to G3HC. Also acceleration after 145 was not as good as you expect from a 116 bhp motor. Beyond 150-155, SX4 is also not very good.

Note that acceleration and ride are compared with Baleno, a car that pulls well in high end and rides better than most sedans can do ( overall ).

G3HC comes in its own in city driving where the car is naturally into the environment. Ovreall, again I repeat, G3HC is not good enough to command more than Rs. 1 lakh premium over SX4.
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Old 20th September 2009, 22:34   #156
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I personally still think Honda is certainly overpricing even the City. Simply put, the car charges a huge premium over its immediate competitors and for that premium the least it can do is match its competitors on features. It already charges a more than adequate premium for the aspects where it betters its competitors. Given that, it has no business under - speccing the car.

A few other factors to bring up here.

While the car is lauded for its FE, we need to bear in mind that its severely under-tired. This results in better FE results for the bulk of the user market. Any enthusiast (such as - presumably - many on T-BHP community) would go for a tyre upgrade on day zero. One must not only add such upgrade cost but also consider how much the FE is impacted and then re-assess the City for its merits. If after taking into account expenses such as alloys, tire upgrade; re-grading FE based on tyre upgrade; we should assess what the cost of the car comes out to and whether all its advantages (such as great engine) add up anywhere close to the price differential between the City and its competitors.

Would I still buy it? Perhaps yes because I am a sucker for the best engine. Is it VFM. No way !!! For the above reasons, I am keen on some mfgr coming along and giving me a viable alternative to the City. Just as an example - I would readily buy a Linea at City price if it came with a higher spec diesel / petrol engine.
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Old 20th September 2009, 23:00   #157
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Originally Posted by neotraveller View Post
Q) How much premium should you pay for a reliable & powerful Honda engine?
You are also paying that premium for a well-rounded product, superior resale value, low cost of ownership and something thats overall better screwed together. Honda's don't have frequent niggles. I just gave you an example; my 7 year old OHC Vtec has lesser niggles than some 3 - 6 month old Lineas & Puntos on the forum. If you don't think its worth it, don't buy it. The majority of the market chooses to disagree with you, puts their money where their mouth is, resulting in the City selling 3 times better than ALL of its competitors. Look up the Jan - Aug 2009 sales figures:

Quote:
Honda City : 30275
SX4 : 8797
Linea : 9093
Fiesta : 7605
Verna : 10975
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikoneer View Post
OT: could you share some more pointers on your views on toyota.
Ikoneer, lots of great objective books on all things Toyota & its management philosophy. Look them up on Amazon, they can change your perspective based on hard facts. Give you a recent example:

My Indigo went for its regular service to Tata Motors. One of the reported problems was the aircon fresh - recirculate switch not working. Service advisor "Saar, that is a known bug with the Indigo. Please don't use it at all, after all, why would you?". I then had the manager of the service center drop me a line. He also stated that its a problem if used frequently & best to avoid using it (changed under warranty though).

Now, the question is : WHY accept failure? When the manufacturer of a car "accepts" that somethings just wont work, and aren't worth bothering about, that says a lot of the standards they set for themselves.

To give you a parallel, a Lexus (Toyota) lady customer complained about the way that the pedals were positioned, and that it led to her sandal heel breaking into two. Lexus sent someone to her place overnight, the diligent engineer observed usage, went back and changed the pedal design to better accomodate high heels. They even offered existing Lexus owners an upgrade when their car came in for service.

Or, how there were complaints of the hatchback operation of a certain model Civic. Honda hired two guys, full time, to only open / close the hatch the entire day. They repeated the operation like a million times, found a fault and rectified it ASAP.

THAT is attention to detail. There is a reason why Honda & Toyota have the global fan following that they do.

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Originally Posted by Gany View Post
Having owned Honda in the past, I can say nothing to beat them except for Toyota!
Undoubtedly. In their ability to work, Honda & Toyota are unmatched.

Quote:
Only gripe GC+large wheebase resulting in touching some mother of speed breakers we have on our road!
The facelift Civic, as I found out today, has had its rear suspension stiffed up. On a fairly large speedbreaker, with 4 adults on board, zero scraping. I'll have to check out the facelift ANHC to see if this problem has been solved there as well.

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Originally Posted by Shivashara View Post
Why should I pay two lakh extra for the car witch is 200 kg less in weight.
I didn't know we bought cars by the kilo! Last I checked, Tata 407 trucks sell for less than 7 lakhs. You should check it out. Or closer home, the Sumo. Max kilo for the buck!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Havent read the whole thread, but i think the 1500 for regular service is a myth, atleast in bangalore.
Neither are the low service bills a myth, nor are they the figment of anyones imagination. Here are the service costs, personally verified by me, in 2007. Note, this includes the Accord which is a car twice as expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Accord :

1st : 0 (No oil change)
2nd Oil : Rs. 700 @ 5000 kms
3rd : Rs. 900 @ 10000 kms
4th : Rs. 2500 @ 15000 kms
5th : Rs. 7000 @ 20000 kms
6th, 7th and 8th : Rs. 2000 – 2300 every 5000 kms.

Civic :

1st : 0 (No oil change)
2nd : 0
3rd : Rs. 800
4th : Rs. 2300
5th : Rs. 7000
6th : Rs. 2500
7th : Rs. 2500
8th : Rs. 2300
And something that's closer home (in Bangalore)

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Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Costs are low 20k service came to Rs 3200 less than my wife’s 800.
Note that the 20K service is considered a MAJOR service for the OHC Vtec (once in two years, and there on @ 40K, then 60K).

Look up Shantanu's service costs also. For the record, the minor services for my Vtec have cost <1000 rupees, the medium ones 1500 - 1800 (rarely even 2000) and the major ones 5,000 (once in two years).

Quote:
Everytime it runs to 2000 +, and ++ if things like interior cleaning are done, which is usually pushed by dealer.
C'mon Jaggu, which brand's dealers don't try to upsell? Vitesse (MAruti's best dealer in Mumbai) sold me teflon for 5K, Zen underbody coating for 4.2K, M800 mudflaps for 1500 bucks, Tata tries to push me into "engine flushing" for 2K....the list goes on and on.

Interior cleaning have nothing to do with Honda, nor the way they have engineered their cars. And we accept very well that the after-market is best for such jobs. In the last 5 years of detailing my Benz & Vtec, I have always referred to the after-market.

Quote:
almost all these vehicles will have same charges.
I disagree. There is a considerable difference in the cost of parts across the brands. Please show me how many 10 lakh rupee cars have their timing belt changed at the after-sales for 1300 - 1400 bucks. Heck, even the Hyundai Accent costs more!

And then, you'll surely agree that the parts of HOnda & Toyota are amongst the most durable? I remember a flyer by Toyota which compared the Corollas cost of ownership to that of the Octavia over 50,000 kms. The Corolla cost less than 25K, the Octavia about 65K.

Last edited by GTO : 20th September 2009 at 23:11.
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Old 20th September 2009, 23:03   #158
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
Care to elaborate on that part in bold buddy?? What were u trying to do with your Hondas??
or TO your hondas??
Quote:
made to the taste of fairer sex.
Typo in a hurry, please excuse. Lets not digress from this interesting debate with the

EDIT1: @GTO: The service cost is very similar to that of any brand new sedan delivered, the 'costly to maintain" iKON in my hands never saw a bill of more than 2500 Rs @ regular service, in my ownership experience of 48000 kms, usual bill was around 1250-1500 Rs. And i think you need to look into things like wheel balancing and wheel alignment more than interior cleaning when you refer to my quote

Twice i paid around 3k INR (for repair of wheel bearining and fuel canister) and one fuel injector @8K (all due to very long non usage periods), and hence the cheap service never make a case for me. If so then i dont see a differnce between a Honda and Ford lol Especially when the iKON used to go in for regular service well over 8k kms, where as the Honda's at 5k kms. See here also the usage matters, i drive and take care of my car's better, where as my bro's cars are used "normally". And normally used Honda's are like any other brand.

I am not disputing your experience, but i for a fact know that regular joe lands up paying more @ dealers for regular service.

When you talk about timing belt cost, hope you are referring to ANHC's cost, an out dated model should find cheaper parts.

Last edited by Jaggu : 20th September 2009 at 23:21.
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Old 20th September 2009, 23:19   #159
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I think you need to proofread my post again. I said it doesn't justifies the 116 bhp claimed by Honda with its on-road performance. It is slower than the first generation Honda City even though it makes more power.
a) Why does it need to justify its 115hp against a lighter, older gen car that had different characteristics ? It still wipes the floor with all the other competition available!
b) Let's see how the OHC VTEC and the ANHC stack up ?
* OHC VTEC : 9xx kg ; ANHC iVTEC : 1100kg
- So ANHC is heavier than OHC VTEC by >100kg
* Low rpm driveability in OHC VTEC was poor (compared to OHC 1.5), while ANHC iVTEC provides driveability and performance through the rpm range (no VTEC crossover point for higher profile cam)
* ANHC iVTEC optimizes FE. ANHC is a much bigger car than OHC VTEC, weighs heavier, and still has higher FE than OHC VTEC.
* ANHC has better in-gear acceleration than OHC VTEC.
So, all the higher bhp and torque is being put to good use. But the emphasis is to balance in city driveability and FE with outright acceleration. There is no doubt that the iVTEC is class above the old VTEC in terms of engine tech and capability. Please also use measures like specific bhp and torque (i.e. bhp/l and torque/l) to realize the improvement in the engine.
BTW, which car is beating the OHC VTEC in 0-100 even today in the C/C+ segment ?
Quote:
The acceleration and fuel efficiency is also a fallout of the feather light build when compared to other cars in its segment.
As I wrote above, ANHC is much heavier than OHC VTEC, yet provides higher FE and marginally higher top speed and better in-gear acceleration. OHC was a "feather-light" build, not ANHC! Wrt ANHC vs Linea, yes the lower weight helps in higher FE. But as I showed you, almost all cars are within 50kg of ANHC in the comparo (if we exclude the Linea), so 50/1100 is contributing 4.54% to FE, while the gap is in double digits. Probably you don't read facts presented carefully enough.
And one could say that the Linea has too much emphasis on styling which results in a larger exterior dimensions, with lower rear legroom and headroom, and weighs unnecessarily higher ? Question of form over function, while the ANHC/Jap cars go for function over form or atleast a different balance ?
Safety comes foremost from body shell design, crumple zones, crash reinforced sections etc ? Having a fender weighing more kilos, does not provide any improvement to safety.
Quote:
As far as highway performance is concerned only power wont do because stability and how it behaves during lanes change at high speed would result in the confidence you will have in it and it comprehensively out classed by other car in this area.
True, and who debates that. However, with a change of tyre to upsized Michelins or Yokos, ANHC can greatly improve its handling (easy mod for user compared to being stuck with an underperforming engine). Stability is already good and braking is pretty effective in the ANHC (will become super with upsized tyres).

Quote:
In anycase a car which can do 180 kmph is not underpowered in my opinion, it doesnt really matter what are the power and torque figures on paper.
So what if that engine even while pulling a 1250 kg sedan tops out at a respectable 180 kmph, delivers upwards of 16 kmpl on highways and very respectable economy in the city... its is rubbish because on paper its just has 90 bhp and 115 nm of torque. Obsession with numbers in the face of hard facts?
Well, of course it can be!! How much time does it take to reach 180kmph ? In our Indian traffic conditions, how many times would we have to slow down or even stop, and start again. And trying to push the Linea, will significantly reduce its FE in such situations. Overtaking will need to be carefully planned (heck more than that, since I need to plan some even with the Lancer). And for me, the top speed is meaningless, more or less. Can I accelerate from 100kmph to 140kmph in a reasonable time ? Can I accelerate from 60kmph to 120kmph quick ?
With the Linea, the answer is no. And what about crawling in the city in stop-go traffic ? No again, compared to most of the competition.

So, the 1.4 Fire remains the worst engine of the lot in comparison, a detuned and uninpsiring engine mismatched to a much too big car and also would be beat by several B segment hatches. Don't be shocked, check the figures. The list of cars which have faster 0-60kmph times includes Spark, Santro, Getz 1.3, Swift, Zen Estilo, A-star, Ritz. Many of them also beat it in 0-100kmph times.
Go figure ...
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Old 20th September 2009, 23:28   #160
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Originally Posted by KeepItSimple View Post
As Honda keeps raising the prices of the model with each new iteration, valuations get stretched.
The ANHC costs in the ballpark of what the OHC, Lancer & Baleno cost nearly a decade back.

Quote:
Only long term ownership will tell whether such expectations are true or belied.
There is substantial data available on all Hondas, and all Toyotas, not only in India but worldwide. In the longrun they work out the cheapest to own.

Quote:
The Jazz pricing is an example of stretched valuation and 'sticker shock' for the buyer. Sure, the core values of the Honda brand remain.
The Jazz only highlit that the mass market is smarter than we give them credit for. In addition to the badge, its the actual product that counts the most. That's why the ANHC is the best seller while the Jazz' market performance is lousy.

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Yes it is overpriced....
By that reckoning, the Linea & Verna petrols are even more overpriced. Cos, when you bring in total cost of ownership, they will turn out more expensive to own.

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The engine is the best in its class but cant justify its numbers on the road.
The fastest car, the quickest car, as well as the most fuel efficient. What more justification do you want in the onroad performance?

Quote:
As someone else said there is no end to this debate because going by this thread's logic no one should ever buy the Merc C Class or the BMW 3 Series when you can have Skoda Superb and Honda Accord for almost half the price and more features.
Actually, what the ANHC & this threads logic is all about is, paying more for more.

Quote:
People buy a product in which they see more value and those values differ.
Therefore, we can safely presume that the ANHC, being the best seller, offers the most value?

Quote:
In anycase the thread starter's opinion is his personal opinion not a generic one so there...
Actually, my opinion is far more generic than yours. You can generalise this thread's message to what the market believes. Trust me, it is they who are putting their money where their mouth is, not merely typing posts out here.

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Originally Posted by Caramelo View Post
but why can't they offer climate control and alloy wheels
Caramelo, as I have repeatedly posted earlier, Honda MUST offer climate control and alloy wheels as standard on all ANHC variants.

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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
The City offers better FE, has a similar 5speed AT box and also has the paddle shift.

It almost makes the Civic AT redundant IMO.
Spot on! The Civic is getting hammered by the ANHC at one side, and teh Altis at the other.

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
The ANHC by far isnt the best in its segment.
Very subjective comment there. It would be my pick in the C segment, and is the choice of most buyers, thereby proving the best overall choice for the majority of the market.

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Linea sales arent the worst in the segment... second to Honda City and has outsold Maruti's SX4.
I think you should update yourself wiht the market performance of either. Linea sales are the WORST in teh C segment, it is comprehensively bettered by the SX4. Take 2009 numbers and the ANHC has sold 3 times more than any competitor.

Quote:
The achievement is especially impressive when you consider the old negative baggage it has to carry and previous to it, Fiat were doing a measly 150-200 cars a month!
Agreed. Fiat is on the right track, yet they have an incredibly uphill task ahead of them in the years to come. For teh sake of competition, and their lovely cars, I do hope they make the cut.

Quote:
Saying that I want Lexus because it is reliable is like saying I love my girl friend because she is punctual!
Then a Tata Indica ought to have the most character. Sadly, it isn't so and reliability is of paramount importance to a car. To finish first, you got to first finish.
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Old 20th September 2009, 23:37   #161
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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
My lancer does that. 15kmpl on the highway, 9.5kmpl in city and will easily touch 180kmph.

The Lancer has only 85bhp from a 1.5L SOHC engine. The handling of the Lancer with the same tyre size as the Linea and the ANHC is better.
Well said vid. Not to mention the driver ergonomics and slick gearshift will best a Linea anytime. I have 195/60R15 Michelins, and I can confirm the handling is superb on hill roads inspite of soft rear suspension and high GC :-)
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Old 20th September 2009, 23:56   #162
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Originally Posted by newcoolgadgets View Post
I am sure everyone will agree that the NHC was not such a great car as the OHC.
As an OHC owner, fan and enthusiast, I have to comment that the NHC met the market's needs better. Better build, better interiors, better ingress/egress and better overall refinement. All this at a price lower!

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
It is slower than the first generation Honda City even though it makes more power.
Ever heard of power to weight ratios?

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In anycase a car which can do 180 kmph is not underpowered in my opinion,
I think it is universally accepted that a car that takes nearly 18 seconds to do the 0 - 100 is...ummm...SLOW. Even the extremely humble ol' Indica turbo is quicker. I think we all accept that, its not only the top speed that matters, its the time taken to get there. Not only is the Linea slower than ALL other cars from its segment, and some from a segment lower, but even diesel hatchbacks & SUVs like the Scorpio are quicker. C'mon, let us accept that teh Lineas strengths lie in ride & handling, but equally the weakness is in the outright performance. Lets call a spade a spade.

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Originally Posted by ramzsys View Post
eventually, the free market decides everything.
BRILLIANT. This post pretty much sums up everything that counts in the real world. Think about it.
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Old 21st September 2009, 00:11   #163
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Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
a) Why does it need to justify its 115hp against a lighter, older gen car that had different characteristics ? It still wipes the floor with all the other competition available!
b) Let's see how the OHC VTEC and the ANHC stack up ?
* OHC VTEC : 9xx kg ; ANHC iVTEC : 1100kg
- So ANHC is heavier than OHC VTEC by >100kg
* Low rpm driveability in OHC VTEC was poor (compared to OHC 1.5), while ANHC iVTEC provides driveability and performance through the rpm range (no VTEC crossover point for higher profile cam)
* ANHC iVTEC optimizes FE. ANHC is a much bigger car than OHC VTEC, weighs heavier, and still has higher FE than OHC VTEC.
* ANHC has better in-gear acceleration than OHC VTEC.
So, all the higher bhp and torque is being put to good use. But the emphasis is to balance in city driveability and FE with outright acceleration. There is no doubt that the iVTEC is class above the old VTEC in terms of engine tech and capability. Please also use measures like specific bhp and torque (i.e. bhp/l and torque/l) to realize the improvement in the engine.
BTW, which car is beating the OHC VTEC in 0-100 even today in the C/C+ segment ?
As I wrote above, ANHC is much heavier than OHC VTEC, yet provides higher FE and marginally higher top speed and better in-gear acceleration. OHC was a "feather-light" build, not ANHC! Wrt ANHC vs Linea, yes the lower weight helps in higher FE. But as I showed you, almost all cars are within 50kg of ANHC in the comparo (if we exclude the Linea), so 50/1100 is contributing 4.54% to FE, while the gap is in double digits. Probably you don't read facts presented carefully enough.
Dude for the one last time in this thread, who is disputing the fact that 1.5 Litre engine is a good one. Its just that the overall car doesnt do it for me... why do you have a problem with that.
On the aside, do we have efficiency numbers for OHC Vtech and the new Vtech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
And one could say that the Linea has too much emphasis on styling which results in a larger exterior dimensions, with lower rear legroom and headroom, and weighs unnecessarily higher ? Question of form over function, while the ANHC/Jap cars go for function over form or atleast a different balance ?
Since you are so obsessed with numbers, do you have numbers for the minimum and maximum front and rear legroom for both Linea and the City?
Being based on the Punto, I would expect Linea to score the same on the safety rating which explains your "unnecessarily higher" theory? Infact how far would you go just to prove your point with abstract comments such as this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
Safety comes foremost from body shell design, crumple zones, crash reinforced sections etc ? Having a fender weighing more kilos, does not provide any improvement to safety.
Yeah and looking at the past efforts of the City i have no doubt it would crumple like a crafts paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
True, and who debates that. However, with a change of tyre to upsized Michelins or Yokos, ANHC can greatly improve its handling (easy mod for user compared to being stuck with an underperforming engine). Stability is already good and braking is pretty effective in the ANHC (will become super with upsized tyres).
So basically all that you know about a car's handling is fatter tyres? Do you realize that it would also load up the suspension more affecting its reliability in the long run and also the fuel efficiency that you have been harping about all along?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
Well, of course it can be!! How much time does it take to reach 180kmph ? In our Indian traffic conditions, how many times would we have to slow down or even stop, and start again. And trying to push the Linea, will significantly reduce its FE in such situations. Overtaking will need to be carefully planned (heck more than that, since I need to plan some even with the Lancer). And for me, the top speed is meaningless, more or less. Can I accelerate from 100kmph to 140kmph in a reasonable time ? Can I accelerate from 60kmph to 120kmph quick ?
With the Linea, the answer is no. And what about crawling in the city in stop-go traffic ? No again, compared to most of the competition.
Resonable time yes.... there will always be cars which would be faster than yours and some slower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
So, the 1.4 Fire remains the worst engine of the lot in comparison, a detuned and uninpsiring engine mismatched to a much too big car and also would be beat by several B segment hatches. Don't be shocked, check the figures. The list of cars which have faster 0-60kmph times includes Spark, Santro, Getz 1.3, Swift, Zen Estilo, A-star, Ritz. Many of them also beat it in 0-100kmph times.
Go figure ...
Brilliant and how would a second less in 0-60 acceleration would help me in city? Winning traffic light GP's?
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Old 21st September 2009, 00:22   #164
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Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
I disagree to the fact that quality of the plastics of the ANHC are poor compared to NHC.Thought it looks a bit dull it dosent mean they are bad.Since I own both ANHC and NHC I know It's a myth.
I agree and I have highlighted this as well in my report. When some people say 'bad quality' or 'cheap plastic' they seem to be reffering to the visual appeal rather then the 'real' quality of the material (better grade plastic resulting in dimensonal accuracy/fit and finish, less warping/shrinkages, durability, no splashes etc)
Quality and workmanship of ANHC interior parts is right up there and cannot be easilly bettered. But yes, the colour looks dull.
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Old 21st September 2009, 00:42   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Ever heard of power to weight ratios?
For your reference
116/1100 == 105.45
105/995 == 105.55
The newer engine also makes more torque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I think it is universally accepted that a car that takes nearly 18 seconds to do the 0 - 100 is...ummm...SLOW. Even the extremely humble ol' Indica turbo is quicker. I think we all accept that, its not only the top speed that matters, its the time taken to get there. Not only is the Linea slower than ALL other cars from its segment, and some from a segment lower, but even diesel hatchbacks & SUVs like the Scorpio are quicker. C'mon, let us accept that teh Lineas strengths lie in ride & handling, but equally the weakness is in the outright performance. Lets call a spade a spade.
Arent we talking about the Petrol Linea here which does the 0-100 kph in 15.XX seconds? No one here says that the Linea is quick, the owners themselves say that its more than satisfactory and pretty good on the highway. Where has the spade not being called a spade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The ANHC costs in the ballpark of what the OHC, Lancer & Baleno cost nearly a decade back.
Well this isnt unique to Honda. Cars over the years have become better, smarter and at the same time cheaper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
There is substantial data available on all Hondas, and all Toyotas, not only in India but worldwide. In the longrun they work out the cheapest to own.
And how does it relates to India? Honda's service interval of 5k kms in absurd in my opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The Jazz only highlit that the mass market is smarter than we give them credit for. In addition to the badge, its the actual product that counts the most. That's why the ANHC is the best seller while the Jazz' market performance is lousy.
They sold 2000 in the first month itself which is not a bad figure for a small car costing 8 Lakh rupees.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
By that reckoning, the Linea & Verna petrols are even more overpriced. Cos, when you bring in total cost of ownership, they will turn out more expensive to own.
Its an assumption, nothing else. The City would have to serviced thrice compared to just one for the Linea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The fastest car, the quickest car, as well as the most fuel efficient. What more justification do you want in the onroad performance?
Why not add the lightest one as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Actually, what the ANHC & this threads logic is all about is, paying more for more.
I repeat again people will buy a car they see the best value in. If most of them see the value in the City, I dont blame them, its their choice and their money. Its just that I want my car to be more complete. I dont start with resale values, critical fuel efficiency figures when I am in the market for a car.
I can also start a thread and prove that an Accord or a Superb anyday is a better buy than the Mercedes C-Class and they are cheaper as well but then we know thats not the point. Here we are talking about a car which is the costliest in the segment and gives the least standard equipments and we go on and on about the resale value and better engine and say its not overpriced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Therefore, we can safely presume that the ANHC, being the best seller, offers the most value?
Value but not per se.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Actually, my opinion is far more generic than yours. You can generalise this thread's message to what the market believes. Trust me, it is they who are putting their money where their mouth is, not merely typing posts out here.
So what? I still believe otherwise and its my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Very subjective comment there. It would be my pick in the C segment, and is the choice of most buyers, thereby proving the best overall choice for the majority of the market.
Yes it indeed is a subjective comment since I am speaking for myself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I think you should update yourself wiht the market performance of either. Linea sales are the WORST in teh C segment, it is comprehensively bettered by the SX4. Take 2009 numbers and the ANHC has sold 3 times more than any competitor.
I didnt even bring the ANHC sales figures into the picture, I know its the best selling by far. Going by the numbers published in this very thread few pages back, Linea sold 9xxxx, SX4 8xxxx and hence my reply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Agreed. Fiat is on the right track, yet they have an incredibly uphill task ahead of them in the years to come. For teh sake of competition, and their lovely cars, I do hope they make the cut.
Competition is anyways good for the market. Amen to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Then a Tata Indica ought to have the most character. Sadly, it isn't so and reliability is of paramount importance to a car. To finish first, you got to first finish.
Can't believe you wrote this. For clarity sake what I wanted to say was, the competitor cars arent unreliable and if even if there's is a difference, its not as much to disregard the car completely.

Rephrasing the old man's sentence, verbatim "Saying that all I want from my car is reliability is like saying all I want from my girl friend is punctuality"

Character of a car is something that no amount of numbers can justify, it can only be felt.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 21st September 2009 at 00:53.
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