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Old 21st September 2009, 01:05   #166
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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
No foreign car manufacturer will agree with your statement above, let alone us, Indians.
I am one too but the fact remains a fact.

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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Well, seems like you agree that Skoda and Maruti have earned their respect and not necessarily on awesome ride and handling.
Yes because fuel efficiency is the single largest factor that makes or breaks a car in India.

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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Right, we make too much fuss on reliability. Can you point to any industry that says "to heck with reliability"?
No and please dont put words in my mouth. Being the most reliable car doesnt make the other one's unreliable.

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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
On the safety part, there are folks who have taken their cars (that belongs to the segment that we are now debating on) to 180kmph and that car didn't even have airbags or ABS. How is ANHC that offers ABS, BA and Airbags as standard in all its variants not the safest?
Safer but not the safest. I hope you got the drift now.

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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Can there be character without substance?
And how do you quantify character vis a vis substance?

Last edited by extreme_torque : 21st September 2009 at 01:13.
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Old 21st September 2009, 01:08   #167
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Highest selling petrol in the segment : G3HC.
Second highest selling petrol in the segment : SX4.
Linea sells because of diesel, similar is true for Fiesta, Verna also. Only SX4 and G3HC are the offering with only one petrol engine option. Even Accent has alternative fuel version ( IIRC ).
No matter how hard you may try to justify by bringing in engine fuel for the sake of sales figures, the fact remains Linea is selling and no one's stopping Maruti from launching a diesel SX4.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 21st September 2009 at 01:19.
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Old 21st September 2009, 01:40   #168
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Dude for the one last time in this thread, who is disputing the fact that 1.5 Litre engine is a good one. Its just that the overall car doesnt do it for me... why do you have a problem with that.
On the aside, do we have efficiency numbers for OHC Vtech and the new Vtech?
Ok, you're entitled to your opinion about the car as a whole. But when you debated the demerits of the ANHC engine, that was factually incorrect. Do read up the difference between VTEC and iVTEC. And what's it about 115bhp vs 106bhp from similar sized engines that does not register for you ? Not to mention the much higher torque of the iVTEC ?

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Since you are so obsessed with numbers, do you have numbers for the minimum and maximum front and rear legroom for both Linea and the City?
Sure, I have seen them both in ACI. Can dig them out (even posted in some thread before) I even expected the Linea rear legroom numbers in ACI to be wrong, but several bhpians confirmed issues with rear headroom and limited legroom! Check the other threads.

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Being based on the Punto, I would expect Linea to score the same on the safety rating which explains your "unnecessarily higher" theory? Infact how far would you go just to prove your point with abstract comments such as this?
I expect so too. I am happy that Punto and Linea score high in NCAP. I only referred to higher weight rhetorically. It is a fact fact that the ratio of exterior dimensions of the Linea to the interior dimensions/space is lowest. So, for argument's sake, we could have chopped off 200mm from the Linea, and had lower weight and still met Euro NCAP if styling wasn't the key. Remember, you harped on the feather-weight ANHC, and I showed you that is inaccurate. If only 1 car out of 5 in the comparo weights 1240kg, the others can't be termed feather-weight( maybe that car is over-weight ?). I was trying to show you, Linea does not get high NCAP ratings due to weighing 140kg more - its again to do with passive and active safety features.
But you are obsessed with weight per se :-(
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Yeah and looking at the past efforts of the City i have no doubt it would crumple like a crafts paper.
Well live on in your dreamland, buddy. Honda and Toyota design cars with safety high up in the priority list. Crumple zones save the occupants from harm, looks like you prefer the Sumo approach to safety. Hey the Sumo weighs more than the Linea (and costs less), surely it's better built and hence safer !

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So basically all that you know about a car's handling is fatter tyres? Do you realize that it would also load up the suspension more affecting its reliability in the long run and also the fuel efficiency that you have been harping about all along?
As I said, I drive a Lancer, and I know what handling is about. What I meant is the ANHC handling can be improved by getting rid of the narrow tyres which Honda has put to reduce cost and boost FE a notch more. Read the Tyre Bible, and you'll be enlightened about a level of upsizing that works (as a thumb rule) with the suspension setup of a car. Going from 175mm to 195mm is no problem in any car. I have done it myself on the Lancer, and its 16k km since, and my setup works like a charm. And there are 100's of bhpians who have done likewise. And FE does get impacted. Maybe 5-10% for me on highways (but I changed from 13" to 15" rims), while in city, I don't see any difference. The FE also depends on what tyres you replace with - tyres will lower rolling friction compensate for the higher weight etc. That said, Honda should have put 195mm rubber by default. In Singapore, they do have an option for 185mm on 16" wheels for eg.

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Resonable time yes.... there will always be cars which would be faster than yours and some slower.
LoL. You seem to be content if the Linea beats a bullock cart or a 800 !

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Brilliant and how would a second less in 0-60 acceleration would help me in city? Winning traffic light GP's?
Reality hurts eh ? Its just an indicator. A premium C segment sedan which has claims to be the best in the segment, can't be anemic and getting outrun by cars costing 4 lakhs less. Besides 0-60 is also an indication that 0-20, 0-40 kind of acceleration most likely takes longer which is an everyday situation. Look at the 115NM @ 4500rpm figure - that's key to poor driveability in the city. In any case, let me repeat - the 1.4 FIRE is an average engine, made worse by detuning for India, and unfit for the heavy Linea. It is, without doubt, the worst engine of the lot of cars being compared - and your hemming and hawing won't change facts.

Last edited by lancer_rit : 21st September 2009 at 01:44.
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Old 21st September 2009, 02:01   #169
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So, the Linea is safe because it is based on the Punto, which is safe as tested by EuroNCAP. Let's conveniently ignore the fact that the Punto tested by them had six or eight airbags (frontal, side body and side head) because I'm going to make a similarly ridiculous comparison. I bring you the Honda Fit (aka Jazz), based on the Honda Global Small Cars platform, which, oh wow, what a coincidence, is what forms the basis of the City. Guess how many stars it scores?

Five.
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Old 21st September 2009, 04:55   #170
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pricing depends on a lot of things. being overpriced or not is the answer people will have to address to themselves before they set out to buy one of these cars.

what i believe that all the discussed cars are good in some areas or the another. be it looks for Linea, power for city, going off the road for the sx4. or the handling for the fiesta. you will never get all of above mentioned cars with all these qualities all in one at their finest. lets get that cleared. so how does the buying decision go by through the potential buyers.

suppose you want power, you go buy Honda city. but then at high speed you don't feel that comfortable as in Linea. nor will you get the handling like fiesta. not to mention the features.

you go buy Linea you don't get the power of Honda i-vtec 117 horses. a Linea buyer generally hates sx4 looks. and constantly focuses on looks looks and beauty of his car.


you go buy the sx4 you don't get good interiors and build quality like Linea or Honda. even ford is better i think.

fiesta has neither the snob value, nor the ooh so gorgeous looks. but its damn sporty!!! 1.6s does justice to the car. and i applaud ford for their efforts!

so at the end of the day its a trade off!! of what you want and what you need.

if you are a sedate chilled out guy who wants looks and that feel good factor and one who is not in a rush jumping red lights burning rubber types. Linea is right for you. the linea guy always feels better about the decision again and again after lots of admiration from neighbours... boss friends.... they all tell him man you bought a fiat.. you should get a bravery award lolz.

if you are racer boy at heart and sporty is only thing on your mind fiesta does it for you. cool alloys side skirts and retuned suspensions thats all the features you will need. fiesta guy never cares about climate controls and fog lamps.. simply does not care. he likes clean streches of road. and fast corners. high revs are the order of the day here!! 40 years age outside 18 in the inside!

if you are calculating, think before you leap kinda person, who is more concerned about his image in society than the car's fuel efficiency lolz , denies being a snob but in the deep corners of his heart likes(bade aadmi) treatment from others then Honda is just for you. this is how they justify the buying decision.i was gonna buy the civic but city is new and has almost all features of civic and gives more mileage.( yeah we all know civc was outta your budget lolz )


the sx4 guy, well he sometimes loves the looks of his car, tilts his head and thinks thats kinda odd shape right there, but in the end says hey its a maruti. it can never go wrong. lolz. this is a buyer who just sold his wagon R. a workhorse he loved in exchange for the new sx4. this car grows up on him in little time. he tells everyone its a maruti, vfm bla bla... but hates the interior.. feels bad about the stuff from swift... and curses about fuel economy thinks isnt maruti supposed to be best in fuel econ matters. but loves the way it goes over bumps roads etc. and sleeps at night like a baby.

i want everyone to know that this is a generalization and my opinion about general public and thinking...of how they go by acquiring their preferred car.

i never intended to aggravate any Linea, Honda city, fiesta owners. these are all good cars in some form or shape!! if i did i am apologizing in advanced.

Last edited by Caramelo : 21st September 2009 at 05:13.
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Old 21st September 2009, 07:16   #171
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@ImmortalZ, your signature made me

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Honda - Providing the least Kilo per Lakh since 1948.
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Old 21st September 2009, 08:26   #172
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
No matter how hard you may try to justify by bringing in engine fuel for the sake of sales figures, the fact remains Linea is selling and no one's stopping Maruti from launching a diesel SX4.
I think we all are talking with reference to G3HC which is in petrol, so lets concentrate on petrol versions.

Linea, without doubt is a car that has probably the best ride and handling under Rs. 12 lakh, no doubt on this. But its also true that the performance is not that strong. We expect more after paying more than Rs. 7 lakh. Here is where they City excels. I agree with you that currently the city is not as quick as first gen City VTEC. First Gen City VTEC did 0-100 under 10 secs ( ACI ) and had an engine with soul. This city is more civilized in that matter. But currently the best motor one can get.

You earlier had made mistake in Power-To-Weight ratios :
OHC VTEC : (106*1000)/995 = 106.53

Linea is a weaker package because of its engine. The closest competitor to City is Fiesta that we are currently not discussing. Its got good performance, reasonable FE and overall the ride and handling is above G3HC.
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Old 21st September 2009, 09:21   #173
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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
@ImmortalZ, your signature made me
Good one. Now you see how the Honda badge is worshipped in India such that people even buy lighter cars which are more expensive? Blasphemous
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Old 21st September 2009, 09:55   #174
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Good one. Now you see how the Honda badge is worshipped in India such that people even buy lighter cars which are more expensive? Blasphemous
What makes you think that heavier cars are superior? in ANY way?

I hope you realize you are questioning every basic principal of automobile design by stating this.

Trust me, if Fiat had the ability/knowhow to make the Linea a 100 kgs lighter they would immediately do so.

Try to understand this, the more weight the car has to lug around, the slower and more inefficient it becomes. This is not my opinion, this is physics.

Furthermore, weight has nothing to do with safety. Period.
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Old 21st September 2009, 10:00   #175
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post

Consider the all-roundedness of the Honda City to its competition and why it is the segment leader in sales. The SX4 : Loosely fitted parts, STIFF ride within the city, 4 seater (thanks to center arm rest of rear bench). .
1.Loosely fitted parts? - I don't quite understand what that is about....Sure the SX4 doesn't feel quite as well put together as the NHC was or for that matter even the Verna. But I haven't heard off any parts coming loose/falling off the SX4.

2.STIFF ride within the city? - I emphatically Agree!

3. 4 seater (thanks to the armrest of the rear bench)? - Well GTO, that used to be the case till 2008. All 2009 SX4's come with a flat armrest portion and its much more comfortable for the 5th passenger now. i have put up pics of the same in one of the SX4 long term review threads.

Last edited by prince85 : 21st September 2009 at 10:01.
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Old 21st September 2009, 10:27   #176
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Just went back to the first post and the question in Hand, i think IT IS OVERPRICED, why? Well Climate control and Alloys are 2 expensive parts and without them, ANHC is the costliest of the lot

Ok jokes apart, i think all the cars compared are fairly strong in their own way, and quite trouble free also. Individual's pick up each of these based on their personal preference like ride, engine, FE, looks, dealership location (for many people this is very important) and image. If i had to praise i have plenty of points for each of them, similarly crib also has no boundaries. At the end of the day i put my hard earned money, where my mind and heart directs, and most often heart has an upper hand.

What would be my choice? Well it would be either a Linea with a bigger MJD engine or a Sx4 with a 1.9 DDIS engine. Since both are not available at this point of time, i shall continue with my Swift DDIS.
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Old 21st September 2009, 10:30   #177
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Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
What makes you think that heavier cars are superior? in ANY way?.....Furthermore, weight has nothing to do with safety. Period.
I think you missed a bit of humour there.
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Old 21st September 2009, 10:33   #178
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I am one too but the fact remains a fact.
Your statement was
Quote:
Also it a well known fact that Indians are lousy car buyers
Indians prefer, in no particular order,
High FE
Lighter and slick controls
High reliability
Easy access to lower service costs
Easy access to spares that are relatively cheaper
Good resale value

Now there are some brands that offer ALL of the above and we Indians lap up their offererings in loads. How will that make Indian car buyers lousy?

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Yes because fuel efficiency is the single largest factor that makes or breaks a car in India.
Slightly OT. While fuel efficiency remains one of the biggest factors the lower side of 10lacs, one cannot say that the success of i20 (over Punto, Jazz, Fusion, Fabia) is because of FE. IIRC, Punto ownership threads claim higher FE.

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No and please dont put words in my mouth. Being the most reliable car doesnt make the other one's unreliable.
True, but one cannot differentiate between "most reliable" and "not unreliable" easily.

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Safer but not the safest. I hope you got the drift now.
No, I still don't get it. Please state what additional features in other cars in this segment make them safer than ANHC. Or is there an independent crash test or collision test whose results state so? In the absence of either and supported bythe fact that other cars have cheaper variants unequipped with ABS or Airbags tilts the scale in favor of ANHC. As has been mentioned by others, mere additional weight does not automatically translate into higher safety levels.
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Old 21st September 2009, 10:50   #179
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Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Quality and workmanship of ANHC interior parts is right up there and cannot be easilly bettered. But yes, the colour looks dull.
Exactly the situation with my OHC. While the design is extremely staid, the way that the interior has been screwed together, and the part quality itself, is of a tall order. The durability & ability to take abuse is segment best. Bring the competition in, and its only the Verna in contention here. Not the SX4 with its Swift like interiors (and quality), nor the Linea whose interiors have many rough edges.

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
For your reference
116/1100 == 105.45
105/995 == 105.55
Thanks, but your information is incorrect.

ANHC 116 BHP / 1100 kg = 105.45 power to weight.

OHC Vtec : 106 BHP / 985 BHP = 107.61 power to weight.

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No one here says that the Linea is quick,
Quote:
Where has the spade not being called a spade?
Exactly my point. By C segment standards, the Linea is slow. In fact, the slowest of all competition.

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Well this isnt unique to Honda. Cars over the years have become better, smarter and at the same time cheaper.
Do read my post again & the context it was made in. Was a reply to someone else's post.

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Honda's service interval of 5k kms in absurd in my opinion.
Totally agreed. While the 5K service doesn't entail anything other than an oil change + air filter cleaning, its yet & definitely absurd. Honda should change this to 7500 kms.

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They sold 2000 in the first month itself which is not a bad figure for a small car costing 8 Lakh rupees.
Xtreme, please refer to actual facts & sales figures before making such statements. In the 2nd & 3rd month of sales, the Jazz is now down to 1000 odd units. This is 1/2 of Hondas own expectations; the shoddy market performance is entirely down to its pricing.

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Its an assumption, nothing else. The City would have to serviced thrice compared to just one for the Linea.
European petrols are depreciation disasters. ANY European petrol, that's market reality. History has proven this over the last 10+ years.

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I repeat again people will buy a car they see the best value in. If most of them see the value in the City, I dont blame them, its their choice and their money. Its just that I want my car to be more complete.
I'm glad we are, in effect, now repeating the same thing. The fact is, an overwhelming majority of the market sees MORE VALUE in the City than its direct (and cheaper) competition.

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I dont start with resale values, critical fuel efficiency figures when I am in the market for a car.
Actually, neither do I. I use my cars till they drop apart, thus making resale value irrelevant, and the way that I drive, no car will be fuel efficient. Of course, the two of us are enthusiasts and our needs are entirely different to that of the market. It's pretty clear from the sales figures as to which car meets the markets needs the best. I must add, the City would be my choice in the C segment for a petrol sedan due to its performance and all-rounded nature.

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I can also start a thread and prove that an Accord or a Superb anyday is a better buy than the Mercedes C-Class and they are cheaper as well but then we know thats not the point.
Don't miss it, that is a HUGE point. As a C220 owner myself, I have stated time & time again that the Accord is a FAR MORE sensible buy. Bigger, better ride quality, overall more comfortable, way superior reliability & cheaper cost of ownership. I am not biased toward the cars that I own or the brands that I like. Please look up previous discussions on this exact topic.

Quote:
Here we are talking about a car which is the costliest in the segment and gives the least standard equipments and we go on and on about the resale value and better engine and say its not overpriced.
It isn't. Fact is, the equipment level is the only flaw that most of the ANHCs critics find in it. There is not a single serious engineering / performance flaw in teh city. Since features matter so much to you, I'm sure you consider the Endeavour & Safari as superior SUVs to the Fortuner?

A relevant post made earlier:

Quote:
As stated earlier, the most glaring ommissions are alloy wheels & climate control. Simply no justification for that, agreed. But then, Honda & Toyota have NEVER been about features worldwide. Toyota example : a 12 lakh Innova till 2008 was sold without climate control. And the 20 lakh Fortuner, look up my report. No rear discs, USB input stereo, lumbar support seats, telescopic steering or air-con volume control for 2 million rupees! They've always had competitors like Hyundai etc. undercutting them on price and offer features (study the worlds largest car market = the USA). The money you pay for is for that added value of better quality & engineering under the hood. That's precisely why they also enjoy amongst the most superior residuals. If you want features for your money, sure, go to Hyundai. If you want the best engineering & durability in the class, go to Honda & Toyota.

Consider the all-roundedness of the Honda City to its competition and why it is the segment leader in sales. The SX4 : Loosely fitted parts, STIFF ride within the city, 4 seater (thanks to center arm rest of rear bench). Verna : Wallowy ride quality (just ask Sam) and pathetic handling. Linea : Neither is the petrol fuel efficient nor is it fast (quite the contrary with a 0 - 100 of 17.xx seconds), has its own share of niggles, and interiors aren't really intelligently packaged.
Quote:
Value but not per se.
Please don't argue for the heck of it. Refer to my "cost of ownership" article as well as Ajmats resale value thread. It will open up your eyes to the real cost of ownership. Even the most diehard Fiat fans have accepted that the ANHC is much cheaper to own than the petrol Verna or the petrol Linea.

Quote:
So what? I still believe otherwise and its my opinion.
You miss the context yet again. You posted that the thread starters opinion is not generic, to which the reply :

Quote:
Actually, my opinion is far more generic than yours. You can generalise this thread's message to what the market believes. Trust me, it is they who are putting their money where their mouth is, not merely typing posts out here.
The question isn't about my opinion versus yours. It's about which is generic, something that you brought up in the first place.

Quote:
Going by the numbers published in this very thread few pages back, Linea sold 9xxxx, SX4 8xxxx and hence my reply.
Again, you need to update yourself with facts before commenting further. Once the initial surge of demand was over, Linea sales have settled at 900 cars a month. Compare that to 1,200 average of the SX4 or the 1400 average of the Verna and its amply clear as to which car is the worst selling.

Quote:
No matter how hard you may try to justify by bringing in engine fuel for the sake of sales figures, the fact remains Linea is selling and no one's stopping Maruti from launching a diesel SX4.
Actually, there isn't a need to justify anything. The SX4 sells MORE than the Linea, even though it doesn't have a diesel option.

About the character statement : I'll be the first to tell you that the Linea & Punto are not only the best looking, but also have the most character from their respective segments. As things stand today, the Punto would be my choice for a diesel hatch and the Linea my pick for a diesel C segmenter.
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Old 21st September 2009, 10:56   #180
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Originally Posted by prince85 View Post
3. 4 seater (thanks to the armrest of the rear bench)? - Well GTO, that used to be the case till 2008. All 2009 SX4's come with a flat armrest portion and its much more comfortable for the 5th passenger now. i have put up pics of the same in one of the SX4 long term review threads.
Thanks for the headsup! A step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
What would be my choice? Well it would be either a Linea with a bigger MJD engine or a Sx4 with a 1.9 DDIS engine. Since both are not available at this point of time, i shall continue with my Swift DDIS.
Out of curiousity, amongst the petrols, which car would be your choice Jaggu?

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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Your statement was


Indians prefer, in no particular order,
High FE
Lighter and slick controls
High reliability
Easy access to lower service costs
Easy access to spares that are relatively cheaper
Good resale value
You forget : TRUST factor in a brand. Manufacturers who have proven that they'll stand by their customers over 10 - 20 years are the ones who deserve success. No brand is built overnight, it takes years & decades of toiling to win the confidence of the Indian mass market. Look, India is the most diverse country on planet earth (in terms of preferences, beliefs, language and culture). To win over Indians is an incredibly uphill task and hats off to Maruti for doing this best. Sell the most cars in the country and have the highest customer satisfaction record, hats off!
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