Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st September 2009, 13:30   #196
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,717
Thanked: 425 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Great, why didn't the same company realize that Airbags and ABS are basic safety features that should be present in every car that is sold? Not so very nice to know for me at least. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pk versions are the least amount moving out of showrooms, just because they cost a very little bit more.
Firstly, you need to read the response in the context of the post to which it was related to. A ridiculous post will get a ridiculous response to prove the ridiculousness of the original comment.

Secondly, a lot has been said about Honda offering ABS and Airbags as standard even in their base models. What people conviniently ignore is that the base City model costs as much and in many cases more then top end versions of competition's cars that ALSO come with ABS and Airbags.

City S MT 8.84
Verna SX 7.48
Linea Petrol E Pk 7.47
SX4 Zxi with leather 7.29
Fiesta 1.6S - No price on website but I am sure it's not 8.84 ex-showroom Mumbai.
amit is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 13:33   #197
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,317 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
LOL, do you mean to say no other car is built with these in mind? Wow!
No its not that complex. Some are just built better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Of course, I am aware of that. But.. see below
See what... I replied to your argument which said why is i20 selling more than the Punto?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Thanks for agreeing. Just because team-bhp is full of Punto threads, doesn't mean the world outside is full of them too. Lets watch the sales figures for a few more months.
Yes and I myself said that the world outside team-bhp is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
But then, I feel your comments "zero automobile IQ", "lousy Indians" are tasteless.
I apologize if those words offended you. But then I am not the one to sugar coat words or be politically correct all the time. It is a fact and we are much to happy to be taken for a ride by the automobile manufacturers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
OK, what are the service intervals for petrol SX4, Verna? Would like to know if only Honda has 5K service interval.
If I am not wrong 7500 kms for Verna and the SX4, 15k kms for the Punto and the Linea, 10k kms for the Indica Quadrajet.
extreme_torque is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 13:36   #198
BHPian
 
sathee46's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 465
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
Fiesta 1.6S - No price on website but I am sure it's not 8.84 ex-showroom Mumbai.
The Fiesta 1.6S is 7.47 Ex-showroom, how cool is that?
sathee46 is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 13:39   #199
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,717
Thanked: 425 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
If I am not wrong 7500 kms for Verna and the SX4, 15k kms for the Punto and the Linea, 10k kms for the Indica Quadrajet.
10K for SX4 despite the mineral oil that cost cutting expert Maruti uses.

Quote:
The Fiesta 1.6S is 7.47 Ex-showroom, how cool is that?
Thanks. Is that ex-showroom Mumbai?

To add to that, i20 Crdi asta(O) is 7.56 and it gives a diesel engine, sunroof and 6 airbags.

Last edited by amit : 21st September 2009 at 13:53.
amit is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 13:55   #200
Senior - BHPian
 
normally_crazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 4,367
Thanked: 387 Times
Default

Of the cars GTO compared - I would pick none. I would go for the Fiesta S.

The ANHC feels too light for comfort.
The SX4 has a severe visibilty problem with the A pillar.
The Linea is too slow.
The Verna handles too nervously for comfort.
normally_crazy is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 14:16   #201
Senior - BHPian
 
narayan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 2,765
Thanked: 1,158 Times
Default

I think "over priced " is too subjective and its very much like looks of the car

over priced or under priced would be to the eye of the beholder

I feel the HONDA CITY is over priced when it comes to putting MY HARD EARNED MONEY - but someone else may not feel so. Hence any amount of "analysis" on features etc does not really make much of a difference IMHO

BUT the fact of the matter is that HONDA has very CLEVERLY stretched the envelope as far as the CITY BRAND is concerned in India and have , AS OF NOW, successfully moved the car up a few notches in the prospective buyers mind in terms of BRAND/PRESTIGE perceptions

and this they have done by VERY CAREFULLY analysing the 8.5-10.5 lakhs price segment and possibly pulled a coup there.

the evolution of the CITY brand is truly a good case study worth discussing.

I was speaking to 2 of my ex-colleagues and these fellows are ORDINARY CAR BUYERS - not people who are so well read on automobiles like us !
and these guys are clearly evaluating buying a HONDA CITY when I know they can definely afford atleast the base model COROLLA

Last but not the least... AS CAR BUYERS/ENTHUSIASTS - I FEEL WE NEED TO KEEP THE AUTO COMPANIES ON THE EDGE AS FAR AS DELIVERING VALUE TO THE CUSTOMER IS CONCERNED. SO WHILE A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE APPLAUD HONDA FOR GIVING A "FAIRLY PRICED" CAR - lets not forget that we need to push them to give more features too

Last edited by narayan : 21st September 2009 at 14:18.
narayan is online now  
Old 21st September 2009, 14:26   #202
BHPian
 
Caramelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: ahmedabad
Posts: 769
Thanked: 13 Times
Default

man this thread is getting hot!!

i have to admit it. GTO you are one heck of a thread starter

@immortalz-- love your signature.
Caramelo is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 14:34   #203
Senior - BHPian
 
ImmortalZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 2,133
Thanked: 139 Times
Default

I see that the sheet metal debate is still on even though EuroNCAP thinks that it doesn't matter.

There is also another misconception. Crumple zones do not activate in small shunts just because a car is light. There are very rigorous international standards to which these things are built to. Modern safety laws all over the world dictate that the body panels in the front deform easily to cushion pedestrians in case they are impacted and direct and absorb energy away from the soft meatbags who may end up on the hood.

Also, extreme_torque, your little comment about how Indians are stupid when buying cars is pretty much a personal attack on a billion people. I wonder how long the ban period for that must be? Fact of the matter is, the Indian public don't give a flying foot about what you, me or anyone else thinks a car is worth or how much they should sell. We're all having a lot of fun having an argument on the Internet.

Re: the signature, earlier I used to be an Alien, now I'm a fact finder.Thanks for the comments guys.

Last edited by ImmortalZ : 21st September 2009 at 14:36.
ImmortalZ is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 14:57   #204
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,716
Thanked: 88,946 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Durability? I sat in a 36k kms old OHC when I was hunting for a small car for myself and it was Ok if the roads were smooth but show it some rough stuff and it made noises from everywhere.
If you base your opinion on one 36K OHC that you sat in, that's just too narrow (can bring up the example of shabby 6 year old Palios, but will apply common sense and wont). Anyone is welcome to come check my OHC, or Dippys, out in Mumbai just to see how well they hold up. Let me also tell you that Hondas & Toyotas are proven the world over, to last the longest. There is absolutely ZERO doubt on their long term reliability & durability, look up any research / ranking / report / study on the same. Hey, its no rocket science, seriously...look up their long-term reliability reports. 1.5 lakh kms reliable Honda City's and 2.0 lakh Innovas are a regular sight in our country!

Another factor in support of this : Their strong resale. In addition to other variables, the durability is a significant one in valuation. If the car didn't last, neither would it have a good resale. Simply put, the market calculates resale value also based on how much life is left in the car!!

Lastly, my 7 year OHC has ZERO niggles compared to 6 month old Lineas & Puntos. Says a lot, wot? We are talking first hand experience here (mine and that of other linea owners).

Quote:
If I remember correctly the Vtec was 995 kgs.
As mentioned earlier, your calculcations were wrong as the OHC Vtec weighs 985 kgs. Exact.

Quote:
Yes and I am not denying that but its not as bad as to ridicule the car completely.
It'd be best if you stop assuming. My opening post from this thread:

Quote:
Lets look at the other factors that make a car:

- Performance : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea

- Fuel efficiency : City > SX4 > Linea > Verna

- Ride quality : Linea > City > Verna > SX4

- Handling : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Interior space : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Looks : Linea > City > SX4 > Verna (purely my opinion)

- Overall Fit / Finish : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Features : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Brand (for those whom it matters to) : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea
Which part of that looks like its being ridiculed completedly? Which part did you not understand? Probably a good time to revisit my views of the Punto too : Punto test report

Quote:
The discussion was if the Honda City is overpriced and to me it is.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I might add, a majority of the market disagrees with you.

Quote:
For all the talk of reliability, Honda wants to change the engine oil and air filter every 5k kms.
Again, inaccurate information. Honda does NOT want to change the air filter every 5K, its merely cleaning. And changing the oil every 5K has nothing to do with long-term reliability. That said, I do agree, this frequency only benefits the service centers. Honda should change this service interval to 7500 kms ASAP.

Quote:
Would it have been possible if it were Maruti Jazz or worse Fiat Jazz?
Illogical. Fiat could never build a car like the Jazz today, with its quality of fit, finish and packaging. Neither could they even sell 1000 units a month with their current reputation and all the doldrums of the last decade. This car's fate may have been sealed in India thanks to the outrageous pricing, don't miss the success in other markets. It is an incredibly intelligent hatch that has managed record sales the world over. This car competes extremely successfully on the world stage.

Quote:
I thought the original argument was only about the costs of keeping a car and the servicing costs.
Again, inaccurate assumption. Please read the opening post. It has all to do with the COST OF OWNERSHIP, and depreciation is the giant killer. Just ask any Skoda 1.8 TPi or Fiat Palio 1.6 owner, they'll tell you some. 4 year old Palio 1.6' have retained a mere 25% of their original acquisition cost. Read = loss of 3.5 lakhs in depreciation. Euro petrols simply don't have residuals in India, partly due to their fuel efficiency, partly due to their fuel efficient diesel siblings.

To refresh:

Quote:

It is safe to presume that if you own the car for 50,000 - 1,00,000 kms, the City's initial asking price premium of 1.2 lakh rupees is entirely negated by its reliability, cheap ownership costs, segment-best fuel efficiency and strong resale. Heck, bring the poor resale of some of its competition into the picture, and the ANHC may actually work out cheaper!! Remember, there is more to the cost of car ownership than just the asking price. A 1.2 Lakh premium, that is more than recovered (relative to the Verna & Linea), well worth it IMHO. And then, you have those additional horses to enjoy.
Quote:
Depreciation yes but the much higher initial outlay and then a service every 5ks would balance that out but that what I think.
Your calculations are entirely incorrect, even most other diehard FIat fans seem to agree. A Honda City, with its superior fuel efficiency, stellar reliability, low cost of upkeep and strong resale will figure SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper than a Fiat Linea or Hyundai Verna to own. Facts are facts. Jap cars are WAY cheaper to own than Europeans, its statistical data that has been documented the world over.

Quote:
A very average car with good reliability, good engine and fuel efficiency and it clicked with the masses.
Quite honestly, the OHC is an extremely average car save for the engine & reliability. The reason it succeeded then, at the price that it did, was lack of any real competition. On the other hand, the ANHC today has more than its share of competition. And is definitely not an average car. It's the only all rounder in the segment. The customer is extremely well-informed in 2009, and spoilt by choice. If anything, the ANHC's success can potray its competitors as "average cars".

Quote:
I know that and have read you unbiased reviews on your C-Class but you still bought the Merc and only you know why you still prefer it to the Accord.
You've witnessed how I am critical of the cars I own (e.g. Mercedes) and praise even those that I don't (e.g. Toyota). Sorry to say, but I don't see the same element of unbiasedness from you, especially in your arguments here.

And for the record, I would have NEVER bought the C180. It was more of a family thing than mine. The C220 was nearly a free gift for all the C180 troubles . And yes, if I had to do it all over again, I'd either buy the new Accord or a used Lexus LX470.

Quote:
Number are only for the academically inclined.
If it weren't for the numbers, all of us would be driving an S-Class. Fact is, it is ALL about the numbers & cost of ownership.

Quote:
And it all comes back to the resale value. Dont you see a trend here.
Sure I do. Only highlighting how important this factor is. Please stop by Ajmats extremely intelligent resale value thread. Lots to learn in there, I assure you.

Quote:
I dont care if it did well in certain months and in some it did not.
Well, it's about time that you do then. Any reasonable analyst worth his salt will tell you about the initial surge in demand, right after launch (e.g. Jazz = 2000 units, Linea = 1500 cars), and that the market performance eventually settles down to a lower, more consistent, number.

Fact is, as of today, the Linea is the worst selling car in its segment. If you find it hard to accept that, go to Fiat...they'll tell you the same thing. Or stop by our analysis threads sometime and see what Fiat owners / fans themselves have to comment. If we turn a blind eye to the obvious....

Quote:
No one's stopping the others from launching a diesel sedan.
All about competitive advantages. Those that offer a diesel enjoy one. Plain & simple. Hey, its the beauty of a free market!

Quote:
All said, I think after the Linea and Punto, people actually have started to look at Fiats in a positive way.
And rightly so. I've met these boys personally and they are working VERY HARD. Combine that with excellent products, and I sincerely hope that they make the cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Very honest reply, none of them. See i have used sedans for long (10-12 years) and somehow after the 1.6 L iKON nothing ever came near to the "feel good factor" while driving. I like stiff suspension, which can take bad roads at good speed. Stiff chassis and some amount of excitement from handling department.
Quote:
then it would be very close fight between ANHC and SX4!
I'll make it simpler for you. 100 bucks says you'd eventually choose the Fiesta 1.6 (higher probability) or the ANHC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
There has to be a threshold when the crumple zones should kick in.... not when I hit a bicycle. I remember a thread on the forum which had accident pics of the City and we had the same discussion there as well.
Search through the street experiences thread to find the recent one about an NHC which rammed into a stationary truck, head on, at speed. The way that the crumple zones absorbed the impact, the passenger cabin was absolutely intact. They got away without a scratch (or a bruise IIRC). The OHC is unsafe, yes, but the NHC and especially the ANHC are as safe as C segmenters come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caramelo View Post
i have to admit it. GTO you are one heck of a thread starter
Nothing like a mentally stimulating discussion, wot? Search through some of my older threads. Satisfaction guaranteed!

Last edited by GTO : 21st September 2009 at 15:18.
GTO is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 15:32   #205
BHPian
 
anilkalvani's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bandra West, Bombay
Posts: 628
Thanked: 77 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
But then I am not the one to sugar coat words or be politically correct all the time. It is a fact and we are much to happy to be taken for a ride by the automobile manufacturers.
classic

After all you have written, it clearly proves how biased you are towards a certain brand. And GTO has never said that he likes only Honda, infact he's just calling a spade, a spade.

Stating/Prove to me the following facts:
1. What is the ratio of OHC's do you see on the Road compared to Astra's, Siena's, Palio's?
2. Is the Power to weight BHP ratio of the Linea petrol highest in the segment?
3. Forget strong sheet metal or thin sheet metal, on Indian Roads/Highways how many times have you driven over 140kmph, leave alone 180kmph that is being 'highlighted' here (remember the scary one with an infant on board)?
4. How long do you sustain speeds over 140kmph on our roads?
5. What will be easier to drive in start stop city traffic? A 1250kg 90ps car with a large turning radius or a 1110kg 118bhp car with a good turning radius?
6. Better safety does not necessarily mean stronger sheet metal, imagine driving at speeds over 140, you have a head on collision with a trailer, the thick metal has not crumpled but bends right into the passenger cabin causing serious impact, whereas the 'thin' sheeted car has crumpled but has left the passengers scratchless. What will you choose? In that case my Logan is the strongest car of all the rest hehehe.
7. Is the indian customer 'stupid' or 'taken for a ride' if the Petrol City outsells the Petrol Linea by nearly 10 times?
8. Toyota's and Honda's outsell Fiat's by the thousands all over the world, so are all the other people in the world 'dumb' or 'stupid'?

To sum it up bro, don't become a defence lawyer for a particular brand please, GTO has never failed the criticize the Accord's, CRV's or Jazz's pricing, he has called it fair & you have to gotta give him his due. He has always said Fiat's make the 'best looking' cars, don't make it seem as 'the best' cars, sorry.

I will not like to continue over this further so please i will not reply.

Peace bro.

P.S. I wrote all this because of you comment on Indian's being stupid, God who gave you that right?

P. P. S. Remember the time when Cielo's were plonked with 150,000 - 200,000 kms clocked Toyota / Dihatsu diesel engines? Now thats called reliability!

Last edited by anilkalvani : 21st September 2009 at 15:48.
anilkalvani is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 15:37   #206
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,742
Thanked: 7,449 Times
Talking All in good humor

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Lastly, my 7 year OHC has ZERO niggles compared to 6 month old Lineas & Puntos. Says a lot, wot? We are talking first hand experience here (mine and that of other linea owners).
Guys lets not compare our cars to general joe's, we all do keep our cars better and drive them keeping in mind longevity. So this is also a general statement which i will not extrapolate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I might add, a majority of the market disagrees with you.
and this is one such

Quote:
On the other hand, the ANHC today has more than its share of competition. And is definitely not an average car. It's the only all rounder in the segment. The customer is extremely well-informed in 2009, and spoilt by choice. If anything, the ANHC's success can potray its competitors as "average cars".
I still think ANHC's success has tons of help from intelligent marketing over the years and positioning the brand as a "Premium".

Second reason, just a theory i have deduced from social behavior: Another factor i see contributing is "Indian's", who are exposed to Toyota's and Honda's of the world when they are overseas, and are generally smarter than their foreign counterparts in picking them up. Same trend continues when they return and the word of mouth definitely does spread. IT and Gulff communities are example, atleast in my observation. Only difference is, @overseas they will get the cheap Honda's and Toyota's, here they are sold at a premium.

Ask any mallu from Gulfffff and they would swear by their Corolla & Accord's lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
This car's fate may have been sealed in India thanks to the outrageous pricing, don't miss the success in other markets.
The underlined part is what irks me most in Honda

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'll make it simpler for you. 100 bucks says you'd eventually choose the Fiesta 1.6 (higher probability) or the ANHC.
Naah it didnt work, i tried Fiesta before i test drove the swift D, both petrol and diesel, so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Nothing like a mentally stimulating discussion, wot
Yeah yeah, i find it taxing for a week day!
Jaggu is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 15:51   #207
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,716
Thanked: 88,946 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Guys lets not compare our cars to general joe's, we all do keep our cars better and drive them keeping in mind longevity. So this is also a general statement which i will not extrapolate.
I'm sorry, but I am comparing my well-maintained OHC to a BRAND NEW Fiat Linea. However well I maintain it, could it be any better maintained than a NEW car?

Further, I also have first-hand experience with maintaining a Tata, Mahindra, Mercedes, BMW, Skoda, Toyota, Maruti, Hyundai, Fiat & Ford within my immediate family. Considering that all of these cars are maintained in the same way, and running the same synthetic oil, going to either the authorised garages or to Sunil Shanbagh, let me tell you no one matches up to the Honda or to the Toyota. Same maintenance style, Jaggu, way different brands.

In fact, my Mercedes is not only maintained better than my OHC but is also driven way more carefully. We all know where the reliability started (oops, ended) with that one.

Quote:
I still think ANHC's success has tons of help from intelligent marketing over the years and positioning the brand as a "Premium".
Remember, the first time customer will be as influenced by marketing / brand as the return customer is by his experience of ownership (reliability, cost, resale etc. etc.). The fact is, Honda & Toyota have the HIGHEST brand loyalty ratios. What does that say? Few attestations are stronger than that of a return customer. A guy whos owned your car for 10 years could care squat about the brand, this is the guy who has had an indepth view into your company, your aftersales, your products and only if you are good, will you be able to keep him satisfied enough come back with a 6 - 7 figure cheque.

And no Jaggu, customer loyalty not anything to do with a "premium" brand either. Else Mercedes & Skoda would have had way better brand loyalty than they do today.

Further, the Honda brand has been built as much by their marketing as the value in their products. Marketing isn't everything.

Quote:
Another factor i see contributing is "Indian's", who are exposed to Toyota's and Honda's of the world when they are overseas, and are generally smarter than their foreign counterparts in picking them up.
While I do agree that expat Indians generally stick to the "safe" Honyota options, I don't quite with the "smarter than their foreign counterparts" part. Toyota is the worlds No.1 selling brand, while Honda with 1/4 the product range is no. 4. Not all of those sales come from Indians, do they? For example, the Accord, Camry, Civic & Corolla are best sellers in teh States. A country where Indians are a minority.

Last edited by GTO : 21st September 2009 at 16:13.
GTO is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 16:03   #208
Senior - BHPian
 
Dippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 7,269
Thanked: 163 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
While I do agree that expat Indians generally stick to the "safe" Honyota options, I don't quite with the "smarter than their foreign counterparts" part. Toyota is the worlds No.1 selling brand, while Honda with 1/4 the product range is no. 4. Not all of those sales come from Indians, do they? For example, the Accord, Camry, Civic & Corolla are best sellers in teh States. A country where Indians are a minority.
Another point to add here. Its not only in the US of A that these cars are best sellers. Go check out the UAE. In a country where Mercedes, BMW and the likes are common, the majority of the people and I'm also including Arabs here, still swear by Hondas and Toyotas, such is the reliability reputation of these Japanese Giants. Of course in the UAE the other two Japs Mazda and Nissan are also extremely popular. When it comes resale in Dubai, its no surprise that a higher mileage clocked Honda Accord commands a much higher resale than a lesser run Mercedes E Class or a 5 Series. Enough said.
Dippy is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 16:41   #209
BHPian
 
anilkalvani's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bandra West, Bombay
Posts: 628
Thanked: 77 Times
Default

Excerpt from:

Top-rated cars for 2009 - Autos- msnbc.com

Top rated cars for 2009:
Lexus GS (Toyota Brand)
Best Sub-Compact Car --> Toyota Yaris - Runners Up: Hyundai Accent, Honda Fit
Best Compact Car --> Hyundai Elantra Sedan - Runners Up: Toyota Prius, Honda Civic
Best compact sporty Car --> Scion tC (Again a Toyota Brand) - Runner Up: VW GTi
Best compact premium sporty car: Nissan Z - Runner Up: Mercedes SLK-Class
Best entry premium vehicle --> Lexus IS - Runners Up: Cadillac CTS, Infiniti G-Series (Nissan Brand)
Best midsize premium car--> Lexus GS - Runners Up: Acura RL (Honda Brand), Lexus ES
Best midsize sporty car--> Ford Mustang - Runners Up: None
Best large premium car--> Lexus LS - Runner Up: Mercedes Benz S-Class
Best midsize car--> Nissan Altima - Runners Up: Pontiac G6, Chevrolet Malibu
Best compact MAV--> Honda CRV - Runner Up: Mitsubishi Outlander

How many companies recall their cars to replace a defect, free of cost and have the courage to admit they went wrong & want to give the best service to their customer? Why do they do it? For gaining trust & repeatibility. Else they wouldn't be the top car companies for nothing.

Are Americans stupid enough to rate Japanese cars higher that their own American or European Cars? I rest my case.

Last edited by anilkalvani : 21st September 2009 at 16:56.
anilkalvani is offline  
Old 21st September 2009, 17:10   #210
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,742
Thanked: 7,449 Times
Default some more thoughts before i stop for the time being, hopefully :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'm sorry, but I am comparing my well-maintained OHC to a BRAND NEW Fiat Linea. However well I maintain it, could it be any better maintained than a NEW car?
True and my bad lol, why the linea in particular? I havent heard any horror stories so far from the 2 linea owner's i know of

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Further, I also have first-hand experience with maintaining a Tata, Mahindra, Mercedes, BMW, Skoda, Toyota, Maruti, Hyundai, Fiat & Ford within my immediate family.
Same here but dont have any reliable info on Tata & BMW currently, and all the immediate friends and family are happy with their cars/brands. Only some are slightly more expensive when compared to others, and this due to the model positioning in the market and sometimes thanks to the dealership. Surprisingly the 2 skoda's that we have in extended family are also running fine Hyundai diesel's were the only horror story from my side.

Merc's of close friends are maintained by independent garages and fed by parts from Singapore and these guys are also pretty happy. All 3 Merc's they have, are abused beyond any of our wildest imagination.

On this aspect of maintanence, the Optra's, Sparks (all my uncles have bought one each making it 4 when last counted) and the lone Tavera are the least fuzzy. Tavera had first unscheduled garage visit at 1,30,xxx kms when one of the gears failed. But trust me that car has run through hell and back!

So this speaks about the good points of proper preventive maintenance and good workshop access, than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Remember, the first time customer will be as influenced by marketing / brand as the return customer is by his experience of ownership (reliability, cost, resale etc. etc.). The fact is, Honda & Toyota have the HIGHEST brand loyalty ratios. What does that say? Few attestations are stronger than that of a return customer.
In india am not sure this works 50% of the time, marketing over rides brand loyalty unlike many countries and hence there is still good competition in the media and at ground level (dealership) for any of the new product. Most of the time brands fail due to dealership and A.S.S more than the actual product. Classic case Honda took a long time to get a grip of TVM market, just because it didnt have full time assistance there added to that was the premium price tag. I dont know if things have changed or not, maybe Immortalz can comment.

I have seen City owner move to Jetta, Qualis owner driving Tavera, ok this one is interesting since he is the first person who complained of high cost @ high mileage and decided that he will never buy a Toyota, inspite of me trying hard to convince otherwise.

Only person in my family and friend circle who bought the same brand is my brother, well he just picked up the best looking car and easiest one to drive, when he picked up the Crv. He cares a hoot about rest of the stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
And no Jaggu, customer loyalty not anything to do with a "premium" brand either. Else Mercedes & Skoda would have had way better brand loyalty than they do today.
Value for money and dealership network matter here to a great extend. Our's is a very price sensitive and an evolving market. It will take a hell lot of time to see it mature in Premium segment, especially in Class B and C towns where the real money is sitting and gathering dust. What we see now is just tip of the market, that real is for premium segment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Further, the Honda brand has been built as much by their marketing as the value in their products. Marketing isn't everything
I respect Honda for their engineering prowess, especially when it comes to high precision engines and gearbox. But i would quote an old gentleman "Jap cars are like Reynold's pen, built with precision, made to 100% tolerance. But never replace the refill coz the body will soon crack, so just use em and throw em out." On the other hand "European & American designs are like Mont Blanc, tolerance is at 200% you can always replace the tip and then continue as if nothing happened, yeah you will need a cloth every morning to wipe the ink off after refill, and leave you with a messy hand". Dont know how much of that is relevant in this age, where compromises are made @ manufacturing end, still i think he has a point.

One thing i hate about Honda is the attitude they try to throw around in Indian market, atleast the ones that i have seen @ dealership fronts. High and mighty kinds, good for them! since they seem to sell. But as a customer i appreciate more transparency and service oriented approach at ground level, instead of blindly insisting how the cars Warranty will be void if we shift to Synthetic oil? Last incident where i had to call GTO in was due to this attitude, i have never faced such an issue with basic communication with any other brand. Ok i can take it as one off incident, but what about that disc replacement etc which was not even communicated?? Maybe that dealership sucks, but i have heard the same story from others from different dealership in BLR and in Kerala.

Last but not the least dont charge me an extra premium for having a H tag on my grill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
While I do agree that expat Indians generally stick to the "safe" Honyota options, I don't quite with the "smarter than their foreign counterparts" part.
What i meant was this is also a trend, now Toyonda are catching up fast Internationally, thanks to the inability of other brands to evolve faster. Too many factors which are more related to management than engineering, if you really ask me. If am not mistaken the model range of Toyota cannot be matched by most of these other biggies, in short its volume selling from top to bottom and consistent quality that helps these japs.

See i dont dispute the quality and reliability part of japanese engineering, but i feel its over hyped in India. Especially if its used to add a lakh more to the price tag. With volume the price should come down, which generally happens when they position the products abroad. Then why not in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippy View Post
Another point to add here. Its not only in the US of A that these cars are best sellers. Go check out the UAE. In a country where Mercedes, BMW and the likes are common, the majority of the people and I'm also including Arabs here, still swear by Hondas and Toyotas, such is the reliability reputation of these Japanese Giants. Of course in the UAE the other two Japs Mazda and Nissan are also extremely popular. When it comes resale in Dubai, its no surprise that a higher mileage clocked Honda Accord commands a much higher resale than a lesser run Mercedes E Class or a 5 Series. Enough said.
Dippy i have already covered the Gulff angle! Its the expats, more than the crazy arabs who go gaga over Jap products. The real old school Arab's are too finicky even now and what works there is topic for an entirely new thread. Good part being very expensive euro and american cars that land up in second hand market, as you rightly pointed out.


@anil: Lets not now digress to international sale/reliability/awards etc my contention is only one point .>>>> Honda is over priced in India
Jaggu is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Think Safety , Think Abs !!! Beemer Street Experiences 73 28th November 2016 19:00
Think Volvo Buses, think safety? Think again! rahul_intlad Commercial Vehicles 89 14th April 2016 12:09
Will Honda Fit/ Jazz be overpriced?? karanraheja The Indian Car Scene 120 22nd February 2009 20:45
Do you think that the Hyundai Getz is overpriced? GTO The Indian Car Scene 56 17th October 2006 12:51
Think your a driving game/sim freak? Think Again.. Pferdestärke Shifting gears 10 25th June 2004 00:15


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 10:00.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks