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Old 21st September 2009, 17:18   #211
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post

Dippy i have already covered the Gulff angle! Its the expats, more than the crazy arabs who go gaga over Jap products. The real old school Arab's are too finicky even now and what works there is topic for an entirely new thread. Good part being very expensive euro and american cars that land up in second hand market, as you rightly pointed out.
While I agree with you that expats prefer the Jap cars, you will be surprised at the no. of Arabs( crazy as you call them) going for these Japanese cars. Having lived there for a decade, I have interacted with these arabs which include my dad's bosses. For every one European car in the garage, there are two Japs to give it company. For eg: The Toyota Landcruiser and the Nissan Patrol rule the roost there even today.

Anyways back to the ANC
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Old 21st September 2009, 17:20   #212
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@anil: Lets not now digress to international sale/reliability/awards etc my contention is only one point .>>>> Honda is over priced in India
Sir, if your contention in only india, and i agree i drifted too, please see the title in the thread, it says Is the Honda City overpriced? So lets stick to the City, shall we? Further, as a fellow rightly said here, its subjective, which i wholeheartedly agree, to each his own. My only grouse was extreme torque's statement generalising Indians to be stupid.
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Old 21st September 2009, 17:28   #213
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Originally Posted by Dippy View Post
While I agree with you that expats prefer the Jap cars, you will be surprised at the no. of Arabs( crazy as you call them) going for these Japanese cars. Having lived there for a decade, I have interacted with these arabs which include my dad's bosses. For every one European car in the garage, there are two Japs to give it company. For eg: The Toyota Landcruiser and the Nissan Patrol rule the roost there even today.

Anyways back to the ANC
Quality education has indeed helped improve the Arabs perspective? Hence i said its a whole new topic altogether. But dont you think the Arabs still have that madness in them for exotics, speed and large price tags, even thought it seems ridiculous to you and me? I have only visited this place and have few cousins who are there (living there for few decades), who seem to collaborate my point of view.

So point taken and lets get back to ANHC.

EDIT: Yes Anil my contention and gripe towards Honda is mainly in Indian context. Where they seem to charge a premium for their car, and i dont see a BIG difference in them wrt overall maintenance expenditure. As far as indians being stupid, well i dont agree, infact we are the most choosy guys when it comes to parting with hard earned cash. Of which car purchase is the second most important decision that we make in our life. Otherwise Honda would have sold much much more and brands like Ford and Fiat would have real tough job in their hand. MUL would be limited to selling hatchs etc etc

Imagine ANHC priced at 6.5 base to 7.5 top end lakh Ex showroom, Honda would have been putting up add after add to say "thank you" to Indian customers and inform that they are overbooked for the next 2 years

Last edited by Jaggu : 21st September 2009 at 17:33.
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Old 21st September 2009, 18:06   #214
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There is absolutely ZERO doubt on their long term reliability & durability, look up any research / ranking / report / study on the same. Hey, its no rocket science, seriously...look up their long-term reliability reports. 1.5 lakh kms reliable Honda City'sand 2.0 lakh Innovas are a regular sight in our country!
Is it possible to link to any of those reports/studies to get better clarity on the same?

As I mentioned earlier, have heard people complaining about high maintenance costs of OHC esp services after 40k & also I would like to mention that those vehicles were serviced at recommended service intervals at authorized service stations. Someone said that his IKON services has been very cheap till date & he himself has highlighted that one cannot take it granted with one such case. Likewise Honda maintenance should not be gauged with GTO/AJMAT experiences alone....If at all there are some overall comparison reports on maintenance exists would really help.
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Old 21st September 2009, 18:17   #215
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Have been following this thread closely for the last few days. Whilst, a lot of healthy conversations/debates seem to happen, I am wondering why a poll has not been added to this thread (on whether the AHNC is overpriced or not) which would give a fair picture on what the masses feel about the pricing of the ANHC
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Old 21st September 2009, 18:28   #216
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Originally Posted by rr_zen View Post
Have been following this thread closely for the last few days. Whilst, a lot of healthy conversations/debates seem to happen, I am wondering why a poll has not been added to this thread (on whether the AHNC is overpriced or not) which would give a fair picture on what the masses feel about the pricing of the ANHC
That's a reflection of the sales figures. It would simply show that a majority do not think it is overpriced. Though the large number of Linea owners here might change things a bit
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Old 21st September 2009, 18:48   #217
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Whether Honda charges (or over charges) a premium to its products boils down to whether its competitors allow it do so. Nobody stops a Fiat or a Tata to charge a premium, they just need to ensure that they are able to see cars!! That is tough, isn't it.

While pricing the cars lower than the market perceived FV is one way to sell products, it is also important to give a product that retains that advantage over the product life. While Tata is a proven failure here (have owned a Indica), Fiat needs more time to dis-prove this.

In my opinion there is nothing like overpricing or underpricing. Pricing is always and will always be a byproduct of the market conditions. Currently Honda charges a perceived premium and they have all the right to do so as long as they are able to sell their cars with the desired numbers!

P.S I have booked a Linea MJD, some of my views will obviously be biased.

Last edited by Ferrari1976 : 21st September 2009 at 19:05.
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Old 21st September 2009, 19:02   #218
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In my opinion there is nothing like overpricing or underpricing. Pricing is always and will always be a byproduct of the market conditions. Currently Honda charges a perceived premium and they have all the right to do so as long as they are able to see their cars with the desired numbers!
Very well put! This is how any good business should be run.

Only part i disagree is as a consumer i cant write it off as the "right of the company" & "perceived premium" to charge the premium, and as long as other options are available, i will choose them. At the end of the day, i choose what fits my bill, from the heart to the head

Signing off
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Old 21st September 2009, 19:04   #219
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
V
Only part i disagree is as a consumer i cant write it off as the "right of the company" & "perceived premium" to charge the premium, and as long as other options are available, i will choose them. At the end of the day, i choose what fits my bill, from the heart to the head

Signing off
This is the exact right that I exercised and bought a Linea .
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Old 21st September 2009, 19:11   #220
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True and my bad lol, why the linea in particular? I havent heard any horror stories so far from the 2 linea owner's i know of
Hey, on the contrary, I love the Linea (especially diesel). I was just replying to someone elses post.

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and all the immediate friends and family are happy with their cars/brands.
Correct. Yet in India, the largest brand loyalty comes from Honda, Toyota, Maruti & Hyundai. There is clearly a distinct trend here, based on actual ownership experiences. For the record, for all of the Ford Ikon's supposed reliability, they have poor customer loyalty.

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Surprisingly the 2 skoda's that we have in extended family are also running fine
Octavia diesels? I wouldn't be surprised.

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Hyundai diesel's were the only horror story from my side.
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All 3 Merc's they have, are abused beyond any of our wildest imagination.
Both surprising. See, that's exactly what I mean. Giving one or two experiences here & there counts for peanuts. What we are talking about is reliability, cost of ownership, long-term durability over a longer period. That's when its the law of averages coming into play. And teh fact is, Honda & Toyota score the best when it comes to long-term reliability, lowest part failure rates & resale.

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On this aspect of maintanence, the Optra's, Sparks (all my uncles have bought one each making it 4 when last counted) and the lone Tavera are the least fuzzy.
Two of the cars are Korean while the last is Japanese. Koreans do take the fight to the Japs, in fact Hyundai is credited with keeping Honyota prices in check worldwide.

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In india am not sure this works 50% of the time, marketing over rides brand loyalty
I disagree. A customer who has paid with his own money for your product will ONLY return if he has been satisfied with the long-term ownership experience. That probably explains why I'm not going to be on the market for a new Benz anytime soon, premium image be damned. The market offers enough alternatives for premium options, if that matters to you.

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Most of the time brands fail due to dealership and A.S.S more than the actual product.
Honda's dealerships are strictly average overall, yet their products continue to sell. Thus, you certainly cannot credit their success to the competence of their dealers. Believe you me, one of the reasons I chose a Lancer over a City in 2000 was because of Ichibaan Honda's shoddy management. Of course, it's a different thing that the Vtec lured me back, strangely, to the same dealership 4 years later

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Classic case Honda took a long time to get a grip of TVM market, just because it didnt have full time assistance there added to that was the premium price tag. I dont know if things have changed or not, maybe Immortalz can comment.
Have seen them making effort, but clearly there is a long way to go before they match Toyota standards in aftersales.

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he is the first person who complained of high cost @ high mileage and decided that he will never buy a Toyota, inspite of me trying hard to convince otherwise.


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Value for money and dealership network matter here to a great extend.
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Our's is a very price sensitive and an evolving market.
Spot on! The sub 10 lakh segment is all about VFM & price sensitivity. Just the fact that the ANHC is a sales leader says a lot of its VFM factor relative to the competition. I mean, this is the mass market talking with their own money. Literally putting their money where their mouth is. Except for the SX4, the Verna petrol & Linea petrols will never match the ANHC in overall cost of ownership. Starting with their resale.

It's a free market out there so lets change our style of thinking. NO ONE is forcing anyone to buy the Honda City @ 8.5 lakhs ex-showroom. If you think its overpriced, don't buy it. However, just the fact that the mass market seems to disagree with the ANHC's lack of value speaks volumes?

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I respect Honda for their engineering prowess, especially when it comes to high precision engines and gearbox. But i would quote an old gentleman "Jap cars are like Reynold's pen, built with precision, made to 100% tolerance. But never replace the refill coz the body will soon crack, so just use em and throw em out." On the other hand "European & American designs are like Mont Blanc, tolerance is at 200% you can always replace the tip and then continue as if nothing happened, yeah you will need a cloth every morning to wipe the ink off after refill, and leave you with a messy hand".
Classic man!

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Last but not the least dont charge me an extra premium for having a H tag on my grill.
Again Jaggu, what is that 1 lakh premium getting you?

1. That 1 lakh will be recovered at the time of resale, especially with the Verna & Linea?

2. WAY better performance, and the best engine technology?

3. The best fuel efficiency?

4. Thumbs down to the lack of alloy wheels & climate control, but there isn't a single product flaw. Not like the Verna with its boat-like handling and horrible boat-like ride quality (just ask Sam) or the Linea's lack of performance and interior fit / finish, company rep and others?

5. Best-in-class reliability. Sure, we can debate that the other cars will be reliable, but the Honda will overall be that much more.

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What i meant was this is also a trend, now Toyonda are catching up fast Internationally, thanks to the inability of other brands to evolve faster. Too many factors which are more related to management than engineering, if you really ask me. If am not mistaken the model range of Toyota cannot be matched by most of these other biggies, in short its volume selling from top to bottom and consistent quality that helps these japs.
Well said.

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See i dont dispute the quality and reliability part of japanese engineering, but i feel its over hyped in India. Especially if its used to add a lakh more to the price tag.
Jaggu, do you feel that the Fortuner is overpriced as well?

Or the Altis, some variants of which can get you a larger more comfortable Hyundai Sonata?

Or the Swift diesel, which is a lakh more expensive than the larger better riding Indica? After all, the Swift diesel isn't exactly the blemish-free car is it?

How about the Innova which costs 2.xx lakhs more than the Xylo, an MUV that matches the Toyota in space & beats it in power & well as equipment level.

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With volume the price should come down, which generally happens when they position the products abroad. Then why not in India?
Not so, Jaggu. Even in the States, the largest car market, Honyotas command a premium for their cars. Hyundai tries to beat them with the cheaper Sonata + better features for a lower price.

Further, when we speak of volumes, why single out Honda? Did the Swift prices come down with selling 15,000 cars a month of the same platform (Swift + Dzire)?

Last edited by GTO : 21st September 2009 at 19:30.
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Old 21st September 2009, 19:32   #221
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By the way, the Honda City website now shows that the car has alloys on the V versions.
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Old 21st September 2009, 19:42   #222
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
On our very own forum there are people who have bought the Linea and their first priority was decent space overall. I would again say that this is very subjective, different people want different things from their cars.
Yes and most have documented that legroom comes up short given the C segment competition. Definitely less than ANHC. I have also seen this personally.

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I am really happy that someone somewhere values style just as important as the overall car. I dont like cars which are built as commodities only to be sold with no emotional quotient.
Interiors room would depend on a lot of factors some which would be the size of the dashboard, the back seat angle, the length of the base of the front and rear seats and the likes.
The front and rear legroom number are just numbers. It all depends on what car you find more comfortable.
Sure style is important. Question is of overall balance. ANHC also has style (though the Linea looks much better to me) - however, it also provides for more room. And no, the rear and front legroom are not mere stats. There are lengthy posts on this topics in other threads, you'll do well to read. There are other factors, but Japs /Koreans are way ahead of the Euros in packaging in small spaces. The headroom of the Linea at the rear is really less.

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And Honda is not the only manufacturer that does it? Or is it? Lets keep Toyota out of this discussion. I firmly believe they make better cars than Honda.
There has to be a threshold when the crumple zones should kick in.... not when I hit a bicycle. I remember a thread on the forum which had accident pics of the City and we had the same discussion there as well. Can someone put up the link here.
When did I say Honda is the only one to do that ? You make too many wrong assumptions. You harped about weight == safety. I told you, safety has only an oblique relation to weight and direct relation to passive and active safety features in the car.
And your understanding of crumple zones is surprising. Crumple zone is different from the front bumper. Front bumper is required by law in US etc to break on impact at low speeds to protect pedestrians from harm at low speeds. Crumple zones of all vehicles are designed based on crash worthiness at certain speeds - these are reinforced structures and FYI, the Jazz/Fit has 5 star NCAAP rating without weighing 100's of kilos more. Go figure that out ...
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Again please dont assume things. We are having a discussion and lets keep it logic driven and not rhetoric.
You are the one assuming and wrongly at that. I only went by facts and logical reasoning. Where Linea is good, I say so, where ANHC is, ditto. I like both cars.

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You can get the handling but what about ride? In anycase fatter tyre option is there for every car you buy and a better handling car would become even better according to you but the difference would still be there... right?
True. Since for ANHC, one is not increasing the wheel rim dia, with fatter tyres, both handling and ride will improve. For me, an upgrade from 13" to 15" rims, and 175/80R13 to 195/60R15 MXV8, ride is almost as good except for real bad stretches. That's because the reduced sidewall is compensated for the MXV8's stellar comfort relative to OEM MRF ZV2Ks...
And you can upsize the tyres also on any other car, that's correct. Except that there would be an optimum tyre size for a car and its owner's needs. If the car already has a good fit, then upgrade may not help, or may make matters worse. Linea has very good tyre/wheel specs, so + points to Fiat for this.

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No bullock cart or an 800 would do 150+ kmph safely. And most of the cars you mentioned would be beaten comprehensively as soon as the roads opens. How many times do you get to do 60 kmph in the City?
Man, you take puns seriously, sigh! Well maybe the 800 will pull ahead till 20kmph, before the Linea makes up ;-)
For me, I reach 60kmph everyday I drive in the city to office and back - and I reach it atleast half dozen times doing 15kms back and forth. So, you know, why I won't go for a Linea till more potent engines are offered.
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I am content with the overall car and not just the engine. Got it? Now LOL
Hey, I said this many times already, I like the Linea. I also said to each his own. Here, we are debating the ANHC pricing wrt capability among the C+ segment. And I find the Linea comes up short, you don't. More people like GTO pointed out, prefer the ANHC to Linea. But hey, let ANHC owners/fans be happy, and let Linea owners/fans be happy too.

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Number are just numbers, it all depends how it feels driving in the real world.
I am not going to argue more on this because you will come up with still more numbers.... any idea of what a torque spread is?
Numbers are objective comparison items, they need to be also supplanted with on road behavior and in person likes/dislikes - I agree. But, its better than throwing Linea is fast enough kind of statements, or ?
As for torque spread, that is why Lancer will take it to the Linea and I don't care for the 180kmph top speed, because I hardly ever care to cross 150. The torque curve for 4G15 is better and higher than 1.4Fire - this is why Linea suffers in city driveability. And I only put this point up relatively to the C+ segment. If you are happy with Linea P in the city, good for you.

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Yes 1.4 Petrol in the Linea is an average engine bettered by all of the competition but the overall car isnt and thats is my point. Its also the cheapest by far and gives you maximum number of features inside out. You cant have everything... can you?
For you Linea P is the better overall package, for me its the ANHC. If the Linea P comes with 120bhp Tjet, my opinion may be revised depending on price etc. So, let's leave it at that. My last post in this regard.
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Old 21st September 2009, 19:56   #223
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
By the way, the Honda City website now shows that the car has alloys on the V versions.
Correct me if am wrong but was it not the case from the day the facelifted ANHC was launched ?
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Old 21st September 2009, 19:58   #224
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Correct me if am wrong but was it not the case from the day the facelifted ANHC was launched ?
I'm not sure about that but it seems a bit strange that there's been so much flak just because one variant doesn't have alloys
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Old 21st September 2009, 20:11   #225
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
And Honda is not the only manufacturer that does it? Or is it? Lets keep Toyota out of this discussion. I firmly believe they make better cars than Honda.
There has to be a threshold when the crumple zones should kick in.... not when I hit a bicycle. I remember a thread on the forum which had accident pics of the City and we had the same discussion there as well. Can someone put up the link here.

Yes, I can put up the link here :

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...toughness.html (Honda City Woes!! Shame on toughness)

IIRC, there was an image of G2HC crashing into side of Wagon R and the firewall of G2HC had caved in. I think that a thread on G2HC started by Majikjeet is also there. This was in Accidents in India thread.

Next is Esteem's head on crash with Latest generation Accord image posted by Lamborghini in Accidents In India thread.

I dont agree that Jazz's rating is applicable to City. Aveo UV-A scores 3 star in NCAP and Aveo, based on same platform scores less in NCAP. The earlier generation City was based on earlier generation Jazz that scored 4 star, equal to civic and SX4, but the images and the thread started by Amit_ mechengg tell some other story.

I suspect all cars that are manufactured in India for build quality. The lack of proper crash testing, corruption are responsible for this.

There was a thread by somebody that compared Linea's fit and finish vs that of City's. This was with images about how shoddily finishing was done. I am not able to trace that thread.
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