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Old 21st September 2009, 20:32   #226
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Actually, I ask the same question to all those who feel that the Honda City is overpriced.

Take the Xylo's example. 2.0 lakhs can result in free fuel for 5 years. Plus, its got the aircraft-type lounge seats, is extremely spacious, Mahindra's reliability is proven and the performance can leave an Innova for dead. The difference in handling is about the difference between the Verna & the ANHC. Like most Mahindra diesels, the Xylo will probably fetch respectable resale value as well.

In consideration of this, and the fact that we've had a 12 lakh Innova without climate control for 5 years, how come no one thinks that the Innova is overpriced?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
do you feel that the Fortuner is overpriced as well?

Or the Altis, some variants of which can get you a larger more comfortable Hyundai Sonata?

Or the Swift diesel, which is a lakh more expensive than the larger better riding Indica? After all, the Swift diesel isn't exactly the blemish-free car is it?

How about the Innova which costs 2.xx lakhs more than the Xylo, an MUV that matches the Toyota in space & beats it in power & well as equipment level.
It is the MARKET - both new & used - that decides which product provides VFM. The Honda City is not only the best-seller when new, but commands good resale as well.

Last edited by GTO : 21st September 2009 at 20:34.
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Old 21st September 2009, 20:34   #227
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Only part i disagree is as a consumer i cant write it off as the "right of the company" & "perceived premium" to charge the premium, and as long as other options are available, i will choose them. At the end of the day, i choose what fits my bill, from the heart to the head

Signing off

You are right in saying that at the end of the day its the budget which narrows down ones choices.

But if we value safely,comfort,reliablity,bulit quality and peace of mind more than the VFM factor ANHC is the best sedan under 10 lakhs.

Extending the budjet by one lakh dosen't rise the EMI much.

As a past Indica owner I cannot even think of going to a TASS.In kerala the TASS is composed mainly trainees.If we find a good mechanic or service advisor he wont usually stay at the TASS for more than 6 months.
He will either go to a better place or abroad.

I have visited TASS centres form Calicut to Trivandrum in last 10 years.I hope that they will improve with the launch of new models like Linea .But its not going to be easy.

Then how can I consider buying a Linea.Small problems ,like chrome plates and plastics falling apart are a headache when we are busy with our work.When I was a student I had enough time to pamper my Indica,but now its difficult.

I brought ANHC because of the previous experience with our NHC.NHC was not perfect .Lot of things like suspension,power and gadjets provided had scope for improvement.But it met all our requrements without any fuss.The service back up of Peninsular Honda,Cochin is great.

But many of you might be disappointed with Honda dealers in you state,so your choices might vary.But the strange thing I face is that the MASS in our part of the state is horrible.Arrogant dealers and irresponsible service personel.
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Old 21st September 2009, 20:34   #228
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An excellent description on what is quality associated with G3HC. The post is by 1100D :
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1182241-post543.html

Here he has explained all the facts with images and worth a read.

I am bringing in this as IMHO this a thread where G3HC VS competition is being discussed.
After revisiting the post of 1100D, IMHO, G3HC is overpriced.
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Old 21st September 2009, 21:34   #229
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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Also, extreme_torque, your little comment about how Indians are stupid when buying cars is pretty much a personal attack on a billion people. I wonder how long the ban period for that must be? Fact of the matter is, the Indian public don't give a flying foot about what you, me or anyone else thinks a car is worth or how much they should sell. We're all having a lot of fun having [i]an argument
Lousy doesnt means "stupid" and the dictionary agrees with me.
rotten; poor; bad. : This mushy stuff is lousy. Do I have to eat it?

I have said it and I say it again, lousy was used in the context of "very bad" Or lemme rephrase the whole sentence, we are uninformed, if that settles some of the tempers running high.
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Old 21st September 2009, 21:37   #230
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I was just browsing through ACI forums when i read this post in one of the threads( by member carnerd), guess he s referring to GTO's post in this thread.

@Rush, get ready to be instigated again

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I think TEAM BHP has become more of profit making company rather than true forum. Their Moderators are quite biased about certain brands, specially Europeans. My advise to all of you, kindly boycott TEAM BHP.
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Old 21st September 2009, 21:42   #231
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Sounds like the post is from someone who's probably been banned from T-BHP or has some other vested interest.

I don't agree with many aspects of the views expressed on T.BHP but whether one agrees / disagrees, to me each one appears to be clearly genuine views without any hidden agenda.

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Originally Posted by karanraheja View Post
I was just browsing through ACI forums when i read this post in one of the threads( by member carnerd), guess he s referring to GTO's post in this thread.

@Rush, get ready to be instigated again
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Old 21st September 2009, 21:59   #232
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Correct. Yet in India, the largest brand loyalty comes from Honda, Toyota, Maruti & Hyundai. There is clearly a distinct trend here, based on actual ownership experiences. For the record, for all of the Ford Ikon's supposed reliability, they have poor customer loyalty.
Hope we have some stats to go with this, am not very convinced from my experience, thats all i meant.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Octavia diesels? I wouldn't be surprised.
Yes, mallu land brother.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Both surprising. See, that's exactly what I mean. Giving one or two experiences here & there counts for peanuts.
Its not one or two especially in Hyundai's case, since my friends even formed a small group of disgruntled owners and got some awesome deals. But these things rarely get reported, same as the failures in the first place. As for the cars, most of them get repaired and pop up in 2nd hand market in pristine conditon

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Two of the cars are Korean while the last is Japanese. Koreans do take the fight to the Japs, in fact Hyundai is credited with keeping Honyota prices in check worldwide.
Design philosophy rather the original designs matters, more than the manufacturer being Korean, Chinese or Japanese


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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I disagree. A customer who has paid with his own money for your product will ONLY return if he has been satisfied with the long-term ownership experience.
100% in agreement, but show me the numbers wrt loyality? Maybe am wrong.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Honda's dealerships are strictly average overall, yet their products continue to sell. Thus, you certainly cannot credit their success to the competence of their dealers. Believe you me, one of the reasons I chose a Lancer over a City in 2000 was because of Ichibaan Honda's shoddy management. Of course, it's a different thing that the Vtec lured me back, strangely, to the same dealership 4 years later
On the contrary Whitefield in BLR was one of the best in first half of this decade, one of the reason why we havent shifted for the last 8 years plus. Compared to MUL and Ford, their service WAS way better! This i have tasted myself. One of the reasons lots of IT guys started running to Honda was the dealership experience, i have experienced it. Cashless service arrangements, i have availed it, forget Credit cards, this just required a signature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Spot on! The sub 10 lakh segment is all about VFM & price sensitivity. Just the fact that the ANHC is a sales leader says a lot of its VFM factor relative to the competition. I mean, this is the mass market talking with their own money. Literally putting their money where their mouth is. Except for the SX4, the Verna petrol & Linea petrols will never match the ANHC in overall cost of ownership. Starting with their resale.
There you go again, i still think its more to do with the perceived Premium Image Aura and smart marketing. 50% Why others are surviving is because of this premium price tag! People are putting their money for the premium status most of the time, being my point of contention.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
It's a free market out there so lets change our style of thinking. NO ONE is forcing anyone to buy the Honda City @ 8.5 lakhs ex-showroom. If you think its overpriced, don't buy it. However, just the fact that the mass market seems to disagree with the ANHC's lack of value speaks volumes?
Lets wait and watch the charts for another 4 months please. New exciting product with premium aura will sell automaticaly for couple of months atleast, wont it?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Again Jaggu, what is that 1 lakh premium getting you
In my case i didnt have to go for a car loan, i avoided EMI, car was purchased with full cash payment. Though i could have taken an EMI and gone till 8-9 lakhs very comfortably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
1. That 1 lakh will be recovered at the time of resale, especially with the Verna & Linea?

2. WAY better performance, and the best engine technology?

3. The best fuel efficiency?
1) Resale if you are very smart, otherwise these days markets are not that gentle on the value of cars, that include Honda's, partly thanks to threads on bargaining in TBHP

2) Yup, but does it really translate to 1 lakh rs, especially if i plan to use the car for 3 years/30k kms?

3) How many kms more per liter? Is it 2 or 5 kmpl? Real life how much of difference does it make, if i get 11 vs 12 kmpl. How many of these users can detect if there is a change? Well i for one never understood the big funda even when i was using a City, Esteem and iKON at the same time. For me 500 Rs lasted for a week in all 3 cars.

Ok now that didn't mean diesel price difference and better FE doesn't matter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
5. Best-in-class reliability. Sure, we can debate that the other cars will be reliable, but the Honda will overall be that much more.
Hmph same feelings here but wrt other cars in the poll, nothing to harp about H. I was watching different cars go by in front of office, and almost 99% of them looked well kept and running well. So unless there is major tragedy from a brand or model, for a brand new car, first 2 years or 25-30k kms will not really matter, even with zero preventive maintenance, Just another theory from my side.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Jaggu, do you feel that the Fortuner is overpriced as well?
Lil bit especially due to the front fascia (not interiors!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Or the Altis, some variants of which can get you a larger more comfortable Hyundai Sonata?
Hmm again ill take Thailand prices as fair enough deal, especially since this one is assembled here locally.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Or the Swift diesel, which is a lakh more expensive than the larger better riding Indica? After all, the Swift diesel isn't exactly the blemish-free car is it?
You must be kidding comparing Indica to Swift diesel?! Anyways i felt the car should have been priced 25-50k INR less when it was launched, but then again like Honda, this engine is an Award winning, cutting edge tech to pay the premium lol

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
How about the Innova which costs 2.xx lakhs more than the Xylo, an MUV that matches the Toyota in space & beats it in power & well as equipment level.
Definite YES, but what to do, they are very good at selling these overpriced specimens. Why do you think we lapped up so many 1000's of Qualis for years at that ridiculous price??? A car with good engine and bare bone mechanicals??


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Not so, Jaggu. Even in the States, the largest car market, Honyotas command a premium for their cars. Hyundai tries to beat them with the cheaper Sonata + better features for a lower price.
Dont have real figures dear, but am saying they are cheaper compared to other euro and american brands??

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Further, when we speak of volumes, why single out Honda? Did the Swift prices come down with selling 15,000 cars a month of the same platform (Swift + Dzire)?
Ayooo saaarr, when did i single out Honda?? They are making too much profit for my taste thats all. Year on year, model on model and like fools we fall for the aura.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Actually, I ask the same question to all those who feel that the Honda City is overpriced.

Take the Xylo's example. 2.0 lakhs can result in free fuel for 5 years. Plus, its got the aircraft-type lounge seats, is extremely spacious, Mahindra's reliability is proven and the performance can leave an Innova for dead. The difference in handling is about the difference between the Verna & the ANHC. Like most Mahindra diesels, the Xylo will probably fetch respectable resale value as well.

In consideration of this, and the fact that we've had a 12 lakh Innova without climate control for 5 years, how come no one thinks that the Innova is overpriced?
I do and so do others, who have bought sedans, sometimes even compromising their desire for an MUV. But what to do? raise mass movement against unfair trade practice, consumer rights? Hard fact thats the way business are run, market accepts it they will flourish without you even noticing it. Has been like this for centuries right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
It is the MARKET - both new & used - that decides which product provides VFM. The Honda City is not only the best-seller when new, but commands good resale as well.
So does MUL and so does Hyundai in south India. Even diesel Skoda's do. Poor GM cars are the ones that generally get butchered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
You are right in saying that at the end of the day its the budget which narrows down ones choices.

But if we value safely,comfort,reliablity,bulit quality and peace of mind more than the VFM factor ANHC is the best sedan under 10 lakhs.
To each their own, i dispute the best sedan part only sir. Again you must be kidding while comparing a Tata product to a Jap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
Extending the budjet by one lakh dosen't rise the EMI much.
Sometime it does, like when you want to avoid EMI or like when you already have a Home EMI and would want to keep EMI's to the minimum. I have "seen" people go through this dilemma in life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
I brought ANHC because of the previous experience with our NHC.NHC was not perfect .Lot of things like suspension,power and gadjets provided had scope for improvement.But it met all our requrements without any fuss.The service back up of Peninsular Honda,Cochin is great.
GTO you might want to take a look here, this is what i wanted to convey in the first place. Reliability is a relative word at the end of the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
But the strange thing I face is that the MASS in our part of the state is horrible.Arrogant dealers and irresponsible service personel.
Dont worry MUL is giving good fight to Skoda here in BLR also, its just that some relations at SA level help at the end of the day.

Ps: I think both the sides are not going to change their stance. Maybe both are right with their views, maybe one is. But for the debate sake i would like to now sit back and read the entertaining thread by the fan boys from either side. Soooo

Final sign off, taaaaa!

Final EDIT: Important question

How many of the TBHP members are completely honest and record all the finer details of their vehicle failure incident on the forum?

From my side:

iKON
- Failed injector at 10k kms, car was not used for 6 months plus
- Corrosion of tail pipe during the same period, due to weekly wash and storage soon after without running
- Failed rear wheel bearing soon after, water damage again
- Fuel canister issue, really dont know if its due to non usage or muck that got in to the exhaust breather tube or a real failure

City
- Failed window winding units, 1 at 5k kms 2nd one at 25k kms
- Failed AC compressor at 35k kms
- Rattles galore inspite of regulary attending to the issue

Crv
- Wheel alignment issue, especially at rear. Sorted out by doing wheel alignment at independent specialist
- Fuel level unit replaced at 30k kms, had to fight for warranty replacement
- Fuel tank replaced at 40 k kms warranty recall
- Premature replacement of front brake disc due to judder, maybe a dealership excess

Swift D
- Ignition switch loose contact, switching ON interior light on Day 1, became OK on its own
- Frequent fuse blow up, replaced radiator fan on warranty

Last edited by Jaggu : 21st September 2009 at 22:18.
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Old 21st September 2009, 22:13   #233
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This seems to be the 'most happening' thread - numerous posts in just 5 days. Kudos to GTO for starting it.

A lot of brain storming, healthy discussions, quite a few posts with preconceived notions. This forum semms to be so wonderful, addictive too.

Is Honda City overpriced ? the answer is quite subjective & depends on what should be the fair price in that segment. Honda City is a notch above its copmetition in terms of brand image, safety, comfort, drivability & FE.
Even those who think that City is overpriced are going for it - may be ready to shell out more for brand image & peace of mind.

A premium for a premium brand is quite natural in every field and there are other options for cost conscious customers.

IMHO, more than cutting price, Honda India need to widen their service network & improve dealer attitude, which will ensure still higher sales.
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Old 21st September 2009, 22:16   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post

Dont worry MUL is giving good fight to Skoda here in BLR also, its just that some relations at SA level help at the end of the day.
OT , but +1 to that given the experience I'm having at the MUL dealership having booked a swift VDI.
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Old 21st September 2009, 22:40   #235
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Definite YES, but what to do, they are very good at selling these overpriced specimens. Why do you think we lapped up so many 1000's of Qualis for years at that ridiculous price??? A car with good engine and bare bone mechanicals??
The Qualis is a great example. Ask any owner, any owner at all, whether he was satisfied or not. This is not an exaggeration - I have met more than a dozen Qualis owners, friends, family and strangers and all of them would buy another Toyota in a heart beat. In fact, several of them let go of their Qualises (Qualii?) after a lakh and half kilometers or more, in perfect running condition, with heavy hearts and got themselves Innovas or another Toyota.

People accuse the Qualis of being old, barren and overpriced. But it is a perfect example of Japanese vehicle design philosophy. Once you own one, you never want anything else. A lot of it has to do with ground level word of mouth. If half the people who owned (and still own) these things said to their friends and family that the car was a waste of money, they wouldn't sell.

My dad paid for most of the Civic, not because he was blinded by the Honda brand - he'd rather have a Skoda - but because no one had anything bad to report about it. He wanted the Altis, but it somehow turned him off (even though it made perfect sense) and the Civic got the nod.

When we were looking for a small car for my dad's brother, he was smitten by the ANHC and wouldn't even take a look at the Linea because we had a Padmini that gave us hell for half a decade.

Me : "It's much more feature packed for the price!"
Him : "More stuff to go wrong."
Me : "But the A.S.S is now handled by TATA. Much more prevalent!"
Him : "Is that supposed to reassure me in some way?!?"

Despite all this and their contempt at anything FIAT, I got a test drive of the Linea arranged and the bloody seat height adjust lever came off in his hand. There was no limit to how much abuse I got for wasting his time. Now his family has a Honda and they won't consider anything else when the time comes to move up.

Neither of these Gentlemen give a thought about the ads in the media about cars. Being from the Navy, they call up their extensive contact list, ask around and decide. And this is were Honda and Toyota succeed.

@Jaggu :

Civic, 12K, 1 year.

1) Brake feel issue, solved to an extent by bleeding.
2) Accident repair quality below par due to outsourced painting and denting work, redone for free to my satisfaction when equipment arrived to do it in-house.
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Old 21st September 2009, 22:59   #236
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This seems to be one of the fastest threads on T-BHP
over 200+ responses in just 4 days

i agree with most of the reasons GTO mentioned.
these are the exact reasons for which i bought ANHC about 4 months ago.

one of thing GTO did not mention is peace of mind. I belive that Japanese listen to their customer much better than Europeans or Americans (or Koreans)
this reflect in the way they design thier products and services.

only thing they lack is the solid build of the european (viz. German) cars.
ofcourse one can not get SUNNY Deols body with Amir Khans acting abilities
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Old 21st September 2009, 23:05   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karanraheja View Post
I was just browsing through ACI forums when i read this post in one of the threads( by member carnerd), guess he s

No member's avatar is saying banned here? I also got infracted because of this "manhus" thread.
BTW, a thread has come up on the same forum with name "i-vtec sucks" and ivtec has been compared with a multijet which is downright foolish
, seems GTO has disappointed many and some "A" brand lovers have become Honda haters.
Very bad.

I have learnt so many facts from this thread in a span of few days from safety increase by added weight to ABS/Airbags standard fitment is a offering for Indians for their good to say crumple zones activation in different cars to reliability quotients of a Linea or a OHC/NHC.
Phew, how can i even understand so much.

This thread is immortal. Heated discussion to carry on with the new thread created by sid with a poll.
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Old 21st September 2009, 23:12   #238
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I feel every individual has some mental price for every car and has some flexibility for its price. In recent years, price of Honda City has surpassed that mental price barrier for many individuals and Honda City seems overpriced to such individuals. And it would not change even if objective analysis suggests differently.
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Old 21st September 2009, 23:43   #239
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Originally Posted by karanraheja View Post
I was just browsing through ACI forums when i read this post in one of the threads( by member carnerd), guess he s referring to GTO's post in this thread.

@Rush, get ready to be instigated again
What a jobless twit he must be... Like you said, I bet he's been banned from here.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 00:43   #240
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everybody has the rights to be aligned with any brand based on his/ her experience. and comment on pubilc forum freely.

@GTO
Your analysis is great. But what i don't like about honda or some of the brands in india is. They launched this and off-loaded their stock of old engines. Thats bad as many were given ridiculous price to exchange it to new vtec (ZX).

then came the vtec i guess without abs and ebd. later they had to introduce at added cost, to counter the launch of Zuki SX4 which was launched as it is like in international market. fully loaded. Many here cancelled the booking of NHC to go for SX4.

Now they have New New Honda city (new looks) again with a ridiculous price.

Yeah! i must agree i am too much aligned to Zuki.
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