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Old 22nd September 2009, 11:30   #256
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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
ACC/Blue&Me/My Car can be added at that extra cost? And how were these prices arrived at?
They cannot be added. That's the cost of missing features that you pay. Financial guru's can explain better. Prices are layman's estimates. Anyone here from the automotive industry that has knowledge of cost of ACC, B&M can tell us laymen the true cost. Until then estimates can suffice.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 11:31   #257
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@ Amit : I'm glad that you've brought statistics in. The process of collecting numerical data, INCLUDING residual values, is currently in process. Wait & watch. BTW, the opening post speaks of parameters which are factual, and definitely not hearsay.

And if you have to add numbers to everything, probably a good idea to attach rupees to:

1. Best in class performance. Between 3 - 6 seconds quicker than competition too. Unless you dump a turbo on the 1.4 Linea, it's never going to match the Citys performance. Cost of turbo installation = 1.3 lakh rupees in the after-market. Probably a good idea to check up OEM costs on that (Chevy was charging 2.5 lakhs for the blower install in the SRV?)

2. 10 - 15% better fuel efficiency than competition.

3. Way better resale. Fiat petrols (alongwith other Euro petrols) offer the most pathetic residuals. The Verna petrol is a non-mover in the used market. This alone can make for a 1.5 - 3 lakh rupee difference.

4. Superior overall fit, finish and the way that the car (including interiors) are screwed together.

5. Better interior space management & packaging.

6. Trust factor in the brand & peace of the mind factor. Not a brand that has deserted its customers in the past, or made its customers wait endless for parts. This is priceless. And yes, Honda does have its own service stations. However inconsistent Honda's after-sales will be, they are more organised and not overworked like Tata service outlets (I own an Indigo so know a thing or two about Tata after-sales). It is much easier to find a good Honda service station than with Tata.

7. Way better ride quality & comfort than the SX4 & the Verna.

8. All-roundedness and one car that excels at most things, is in the mid-pack in some and poor only in one (equipment).

Quote:
Lets look at the other factors that make a car:

- Performance : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea

- Fuel efficiency : City > SX4 > Linea > Verna

- Ride quality : Linea > City > Verna > SX4

- Handling : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Interior space : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Looks : Linea > City > SX4 > Verna (purely my opinion)

- Overall Fit / Finish : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Features : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Brand (for those whom it matters to) : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea
@ Greenhorn : I don't agree with the Bose analogy. Bose is perceived as the Mercedes Benz of audio systems (not by me ), is priced 3 times more than direct competition, hardly shares any product specifications and surely doesn't sell more than other mass market products?

Last edited by GTO : 22nd September 2009 at 11:51.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 11:34   #258
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
They cannot be added. That's the cost of missing features that you pay. Financial guru's can explain better. Prices are layman's estimates. Anyone here from the automotive industry that has knowledge of cost of ACC, B&M can tell us laymen the true cost. Until then estimates can suffice.
As a Blue and Me alternative

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/produc...bra-sp700.html
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Old 22nd September 2009, 11:42   #259
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Bose is supposed to be a premium home audio company
To the target market, bose seems to be worth its prices.

There are flaws in this analogy - I understand that - such as the fact that most bose owners are ignorant of other similarly priced products etc, but my point here is that the market and the numbers need not be right. not even remotely.
Greeine, you know my opinion on base that said. For a market that wants a simple one box, small, cute, system and is willing to pay the premium bose does offer value. This market does not value Sound Quality (SQ). Most prospective Bose customers do not even evaluate another brand.

The Honda customer however usually do evaluate the competition. I took a long hard look at the Linea. My wife loved the styling and features, etc.. but did we have faith in Fiat-Tata A.S.S? That was the deal breaker. Not the fact that Linea offered performance not on par with the ANHC nor the fact that the Liena did not offer an auto box option.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 11:44   #260
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
If you want to feel happy about the cheap service i suggest you buy a maruti vehicle, bill will be under 1000 bucks with service and oil change with Servo
My SX4's 40,000kms service cost us over Rs.9,157. Invoice is posted on my SX4 thread. No one commented on that though. Imagine the hell that would have happened if someone had spent half of that a Fiesta, Aveo, Linea service.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 11:54   #261
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
My SX4's 40,000kms service cost us over Rs.9,157. Invoice is posted on my SX4 thread. No one commented on that though. Imagine the hell that would have happened if someone had spent half of that a Fiesta, Aveo, Linea service.
The 40K service for my Honda cost 40% lower than that. Note, each 20K interval, and thus the 40K service, is considered MAJOR by Honda.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 11:56   #262
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The 40K service for my Honda cost 40% lower than that. Note, each 20K interval, and thus the 40K service, is considered MAJOR by Honda.
Do you own ANHC? I think we should stick to current Honda City that we are discussing, unless it shares many components with the first gen City.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 11:59   #263
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Originally Posted by Jaggu;1494586

[QUOTE
To each their own, i dispute the best sedan part only sir. Again you must be kidding while comparing a Tata product to a Jap
Please note I didn't compare Tata product to a Jap.I compared the TASS to Honda service.


Quote:
Sometime it does, like when you want to avoid EMI or like when you already have a Home EMI and would want to keep EMI's to the minimum. I have "seen" people go through this dilemma in life.
I agree with you.If I had to pay a home loan EMI now , I would have considered Indica Vista.


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GTO you might want to take a look here, this is what i wanted to convey in the first place. Reliability is a relative word at the end of the day.
Please note that I didn't mention any reliablity problems for our NHC.

Hi jaggu please stay in the thread.What about buying ANHC? After buying you might feel its VFM.

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Old 22nd September 2009, 12:15   #264
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
And if you have to add numbers to everything, probably a good idea to attach rupees to:
Sure.

Quote:
1. Best in class performance. Between 3 - 6 seconds quicker than competition too. Unless you dump a turbo on the 1.4 Linea, it's never going to match the Citys performance. Cost of turbo installation = 1.3 lakh rupees in the after-market. Probably a good idea to check up OEM costs on that (Chevy was charging 2.5 lakhs for the blower install in the SRV?)
How much?

Then also attach cost to high speed stability. Surely a Linea and Fiesta would feel better and more stable then a City at 150kmph.

Quote:
2. 10 - 15% better fuel efficiency than competition.
That's easy. How much more mileage does a Honda actually give compared to Verna, Fiesta , Linea. Money saved will be the value attached to better mileage.

Quote:
3. Way better resale. Fiat petrols (alongwith other Euro petrols) offer the most pathetic residuals. The Verna petrol is a non-mover in the used market. This alone can make for a 1.5 - 3 lakh rupee difference.
Of course, Honda's have better resale compared to non-Honda and non-Japanese petrols. But how much? Will a 5 year old ANHC fetch 2.5 Lakhs more then a 5 year old Linea , 2.10 lakh more then a 5 year old Verna?

Quote:
4. Superior overall fit, finish and the way that the car (including interiors) are screwed together.
Compared to Linea, yes. But compared to Verna? If screwed together means rattle free then even my Palio had horrendous plastics but 5 years and 75K kms later there was not a single rattle. My Punto has done over 4,150kms and no rattles. SX4's first rattle came in around 2,xxx kms. The plastics surrounding the ignition slot in the Punto are badly put together - picture is posted in my Punto thread. Coming to Verna, surely it's almost as well put together as the City.

Quote:
5. Better interior space management & packaging.
How much?

Quote:
6. Trust factor in the brand & peace of the mind factor. Not a brand that has deserted its customers in the past, or made its customers wait endless for parts. This is priceless. And yes, Honda does have its own service stations. However inconsistent Honda's after-sales will be, they are more organised and not overworked like Tata service outlets (I own an Indigo so know a thing or two about Tata after-sales). It is much easier to find a good Honda service station than with Tata.
Agreed.

Quote:
7. Way better ride quality & comfort than the SX4 & the Verna.
But not a patch on the Linea and maybe even Fiesta.

Quote:
8. All-roundedness and one car that excels at most things, is in the mid-pack in some and poor only in one (equipment).
How much?

These are intangables. If we are talking costs how about attaching a value to another intangable like how a car makes you feel?
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Old 22nd September 2009, 12:28   #265
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I am seeing a lot of posts comparing the sales of City to those of the Lineas, Vernas, Fiestas of the world. The City had a premium on those cars which in my view was worth it purely for its H badge, looks and performance, even if you don't consider the other statistics like A.S.S., maintenance costs. Now with the increased price the price differential has gone up further and somehow it seems to be comparable to the positioning of the Jazz in the premium hatchback segment. I know we are talking about different range of cars with probably a different target audience. But the overall perception is that Honda has taken this a bit too far.

But will the City do well? I think in the initial festival period it may do well but in the long term the sales may slide to a slightly lower level. Because some customers may switch to other options given the difference. Now if a truly worthy competitor which matches up the City is launched then the run may become tough for Honda. I think the market is primed up for the likes of Ford. If they can conjure up one good product here, they can have a great run and then it will be interesting to see what Honda does.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 12:34   #266
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Originally Posted by neoonwheels View Post
Do you own ANHC? I think we should stick to current Honda City that we are discussing, unless it shares many components with the first gen City.
ANHC 40K service is 1440/- for labour. Engine oil is 790/- and any other parts and taxes extra. If an ANHC owner can scan their service booklet and show what all are changed for that service, I can give you an estimate.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 12:37   #267
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A few more points to add:

1. In the argument so far, Resale value has been considered an important factor for justifying the higher price of ANHC. But are we not contradicting ourselves here? There has been a long discussion in another thread on why it should not be considered so important, and if it was to be considered then how the present value of money should be brought into picture (If I recall correctly, that perspective was put forward by GTO himself).

2. Under the maintenance cost, the "normal" accident parts should be considered too, not just the service costs. On the Indian roads, these are Side view mirrors, tail lights, etc. In my experience an average car owner may be spending more on these than the routine and plain service.

3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Greenhorn: Your analogy is perfect. I agree mostly, except your last comments about "foolishness" are bit harsh. (They bit me more being both a Bose and a new ANHC owner ). In fact you will find hundreds of comparisons of the sound quality of Bose vs others showing that Bose is inferior to many other less pricey ones. And you will find many other similar analogies. (e.g. a particular brand of Jeans vs others, swiss watches vs others, and so on).

I knew these facts when I bought both Bose and ANHC, but honestly, I was ALSO looking for that "WOW" factor. And I am not repenting. For ANHC purchase, I felt that "it gives 90% Civic at 75% price".

Those are such individual perceptions and wants that decide the market trends. What may be an overpriced car for someone may be a VFM proposal for someone else.

There is an interesting thread elsewhere on this Forum, and I suggest others to have a look - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...car-you-3.html (How do you decide to buy a car for YOU?)

And another one, where someone was complaining about the skewed perceptions about another brand (though the arguments IMHO were not that lucid). I see a similarity - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...rs-why-15.html (Skewed perceptions, biased, preconceived notions towards Hyundai cars.Why?)

4. Honestly, I feel there is no end to this discussion.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 12:42   #268
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
How much?
How much?
How much?

These are intangables. If we are talking costs how about attaching a value to another intangable like how a car makes you feel?
Amit you have answered your own question. The Honda City does sell on perception. A perception that Honda will offer better service, better fit and finish, better overall customer experience over it's competition. A perception that has been created by doing exactly that for the past 10 years (in India).

The monetary value for these intangables cannot be quantified by me, you or anyone else. Each of us will add our own value to these intangables. Hence the only yardstick one can use for the percieved value of these intangables is the long term (3 years) sales figures of the City vs it's competiion. I do not think the ANHC will do too bad in this department (based on the sales of the NHC and the OHC vs their respective competition).

Last edited by navin : 22nd September 2009 at 12:43.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 13:35   #269
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
How much?
To get the same performance, and as already illustrated, bank on 1.3 lakhs in the aftermarket or 2.0 lakhs (if previous OEM turbo installs are anything to go by). The point is : Since you wish to add a pure number to everything, the performance factor along takes care of the price differential of the Honda City versus the Linea. Of course, that's not even counting the brand, the all roundedness nature of the car, the fit / finish, long term reliability etc.

And do attach some numbers to niggles of Fiats as well. You know first hand of how the Linea as well as the SX4 have their own share of niggles. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, my OHC has ZERO niggles today, something that nearly new Fiats cannot match.

Quote:
Then also attach cost to high speed stability. Surely a Linea and Fiesta would feel better and more stable then a City at 150kmph.
Oh please, give me another. The OHC is horrible at even 120 kph, but (and check various reviews or drive the car yourself), the ANHC has good stability at 150 kph. No, its not in the league of the Linea which is the class-topper when it comes to stability, but neither does it make you feel deprived / scared (example as in the OHC). One of the major advantages of the ANHC WRT previous City generations has been the substantial increase in high speed stability. Definitely not a deal breaker from any angle.

To quote Vivekji05, who is an extremely unbiased BHPian + professional reviewer, and praises Honda as much as he criticises them:

Quote:
The stability is great as speeds rise. The steering which was on the lighter side in the city roads felt heavy on the highway in nearly the same way a good steering should. There was no hint of nervousness even when changing lanes at triple digit speeds. I saw 150kmph coming up from time to time but it felt more like 120kmph. You dont get the excitement of going faster than you really are, say in a Fiesta 1.6 but it is still fun.
If you think all Jap cars are unstable at high speed, you need to update yourself. I've just had a high speed run in the Civic on sunday and believe me, it was not unstable at triple digits at all (PM me to know the actual speed ). Of course, the facelift has gotten itself a stiffer rear suspension but believe me, it is one of the most enjoyable cars to drive at high speed : steering, braking and handling included.

Quote:
That's easy. How much more mileage does a Honda actually give compared to Verna, Fiesta , Linea. Money saved will be the value attached to better mileage.
At the least, 1 - 1.5 kpl more than the Linea in the same driving conditions. Can't argue with physics, the engine is more efficient, better technology and the car is lighter too!

Quote:
Of course, Honda's have better resale compared to non-Honda and non-Japanese petrols. But how much? Will a 5 year old ANHC fetch 2.5 Lakhs more then a 5 year old Linea , 2.10 lakh more then a 5 year old Verna?
At the least 1.5 lakhs differential on a 5 year old ANHC versus a petrol Linea, if not 2.5 lakhs. Again, both these cars are new, yet 10 years of history provides for a pretty reliable sample size. 99% of the Euro petrols in our market have been resale duds. It's a hard hitting fact. Not only due to the nature of Euro petrols, but also the fact that the Linea diesel is so darn competent / driveable / fuel efficient. A majority of the Linea sales do come from the diesel so its pretty obvious where the market preferences lie.

Quote:
Compared to Linea, yes. But compared to Verna?
The fit, finish and the way that they are put together are sheer precision, not like the mis-aligned parts & varying panel gaps of the Linea. As indicated in the first post, the Verna does match the Honda City in fit / finish. Please understand that, again, we are talking about an all-rounder here.....the fact that the Honda City is no.1 in many areas, mid-pack in some and last in few. No one is stating that it is better than competition in ALL areas (e.g. the interior fit finish superiority to Linea & SX4, not to the Verna).

Quote:
agreed
Glad you agree, we all know that the trust factor in a brand is imperative, and one of the reasons that Maruti, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota etc. etc. can charge higher prices for their products. Why cars, extend the same to most other products & services that we buy. Good thing is, the market rewards those who have taken care of them, thus making the lesser established work harder. Just ask BMW, and what they had to go through, to match Mercedes Benz'.

Quote:
But not a patch on the Linea and maybe even Fiesta.
Do take the time out to test the Fiesta. The ANHC's ride quality is better than the Fiesta's. Not a patch on the Linea, but of course, who is debating that? Look up the opening post again which is a purely objective view and has given the Linea what it deserved for ride & handling. No one can call the ANHC's ride quality bad or one that leaves you wishing for more. It does the job and is ranked 2nd to direct competition.

Quote:
How much?
Price of all-roundedness? Ask the customers. It's very clear that the ANHC, even at a higher price, gives you a more complete package compared to the SX4, Verna & Linea (in that order due to sales stats). Sure, we'd all love to buy a different car which is best in each parameter (i.e. one for performance, one for ride, one for features and so on). But if I want one that excels in most areas, and is mid-pack in others, it is the ANHC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psp62in View Post
But are we not contradicting ourselves here? There has been a long discussion in another thread on why it should not be considered so important
I have always insisted that resale value IS VERY IMPORTANT to the buying decision, and in calculating overall cost of ownership of the car. Shoddy resale value can entirely negate, by 2 - 3 times, any money that you'd saved at the time of initial acquition. Take ANY example : The money you save in a Palio vis a vis competitors is negated at the time of resale, an Innova diesel will cost you only a lakh more than the petrol, yet at the time of resale, the difference will be substantially more. Or even the Skoda petrols versus diesels! Sometimes, the resale value can cost you more than the price of fuel, both of which the ANHC is best in.

Please do spend some time reading up Ajmat's excellent discussion.

I hold on to my cars for 10+ years, so it does not matter as much to me, but the fact is : A majority of the market changes their cars at the 4 - 5 year interval and resale value ought to be of PARAMOUNT importance to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
The monetary value for these intangables cannot be quantified by me, you or anyone else. Each of us will add our own value to these intangables. Hence the only yardstick one can use for the percieved value of these intangables is the long term (3 years) sales figures of the City vs it's competiion. I do not think the ANHC will do too bad in this department (based on the sales of the NHC and the OHC vs their respective competition).
Let's not overlook the fact that it is actual ownership experiences & the resultant word of mouth that make a brand too.

Last edited by GTO : 22nd September 2009 at 13:45.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 13:49   #270
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  1. When someone says ANHC is not overpriced, its not personal opinion but an absolute & generic citing figures. What are those figures i.e. How many are those people?
  2. How many people on this thread mentioned that overpriced or not could be subjective? They were their personal opinions as it was said that they value certain things which others do not. Right? How many are those people here & in the overall market also ?
Has anyone noticed 2 wonderful posts narayan written - Post # 201 & # 254 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
This is absolutely RIDICULOUS!
Sir, that post was in response to below (not posted earlier due to my abstinance from this thread) :

Quote:
As is common sense, the overall cost of ownership is the real number that should really matter. Those that ignore this in their calculations usually regret eventually.
55 out of every 100 customers not buying ANHC eventhough it gives lowest Cost of Ownership usually regret eventually (& are not using common sense)


Quote:
Unfortunately, you did get your facts wrong.
the Accord has maintained consistent sales figures all throughout the year.
Where did I get the facts wrong? My post was as below
Quote:
Precisely this is the trend I'm talking about of customers starts moving away from underequipped cars.
I also explained the thought process behind it. For any shrewd businessman/ co. whose product is market leader & if it starts losing market-share, does not it mean reduced penetration in the market i.e. reduced proportion of customers acquired? Will that businessman/co. rest in past laurels maintaining just the sales which it used to do?
Quote:
It's glaringly evident that the market does want cars with class leading reliability, all-roundedness + low cost of ownership.
I haven't mentioned does not want. I mentioned Starts moving away & not Moved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
So effectually a City costs 2,57,000 more then Linea, 2,11,000 more then Verna and 1,87,000 more then Fiesta. Do note I haven't added the cost of small features like rear A/C vents, sun blinds etc. The high price is because of better resale we say. So the I-Vtec engine + better resale will equal 2,57,000 more? Can we sell a 5 year old City for 257K more then Linea? What about the interest cost of the 257K you save upfront for 5 years?
Leave adding cost of all those equipments assuming you'll not get to enjoy it buying ANHC against the Reliability, Resale etc. Just compare V-MT which has Alloys & Fog Lamps.
The resultant difference say 2 lacs premium, obviously one won't keep in a close safe. You invest it. Bare minimum return is on the FD & generally one doesnot invest his entire savings in FD but spreads across other higher return instruments also. In typical such investment structure along various instruments, this saving becomes 4 - 4.5 Lacs after 5 years.
What happens to Cost of Ownership now? Will the Resale & other stuff be able to cover this? Remember, none of the other equipments & costs are added here. Not even Climate control which was agreed here that it should be there.
Quote:
If we bring in diesel's things can get worse, MUCH worse. Example, Linea MJD E PK is 8.61 that's 23K LESS then City with more features, Verna is 41K less then City S but since we are clinically comparing petrols, let's stick to that.
Why are we so scared of Diesel ? Each of them - ANHC/SX4/Verna/Fiesta/Linea - does not have some or the other things in their Product offering. So what? I thought thats what was being dissected here

Some consider, not being able to introduce Diesel cars in India (which has a large Diesel car mkt) as a Weakness

However, some might also say, its a strategy not to spread too thin.

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