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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:03   #271
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
The monetary value for these intangables cannot be quantified by me, you or anyone else. Each of us will add our own value to these intangables.
Sir, but it was repeatedly mentioned here that ANHC is not overpriced & thats absolute & generic. When one assigns his own value to intangibles (& may be tabgibles also) as you mentioned & tries to say something, its promptly discarded as a Personal opinion. What to do now?
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:08   #272
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Oh.........Oh........
This seems Real time war between T-Bhp Members.
I am not at all Honda Fan. I am driving Opel Astra for Last 12 years (very well satisfied) and believe me, I hated the OHC (as it was with my freind). But now with City V, my mind set has changed.
Read the thread below and your mind set may also change:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...da-jazz-3.html (Twing-o-twing, I want all my world to sing, I got tupi tupi twing. Honda Jazz)
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:22   #273
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Oh.........Oh........
This seems Real time war between T-Bhp Members.
Just agree that Linea is the best... and war is over .
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:27   #274
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I think its time to sign-off from the thread & keep an abstinance. Its going never-ending as was expected.

Carry on the debate, guys

EDIT:

GTO - just saw your below post, hence this EDIT.

OT:
I respect Honda tremendously. I've seen from the closest quarters how they've changed the dynamics of Two-wheeler market a few years back. When Scooter sales were dead & the leader Bajaj also tried to concentrate on its weakness i.e. Motorcycles by cutting focus from its flagship/ BreadnButter Scooters biz, Honda Motorcycles & Scooters India (HMSI) came thereafter & launched their offerings - not with Motorcycles first but with Scooters - Automatic & Geared . The Scooter market which was reducing making way for exponential growth for Motorcycles, not only stabilised but increased Scooter market substantially which was actually being left out by existing players including market leaders.

Hero Honda Splandour is a legend. I heard during those times that Honda wanted to shut it that time as it has already served for 4-5 years timeline which might have been specified earlier. But the sales response & strong backing/support to Splandour by Hero Motors did not allow that to happen.

However, I do believe that things are going just a bit too far here & let me myself admit that let it be my Personal Opinion. Do not want to ignite another debate.
Signing-off.

Last edited by VahanPujari : 22nd September 2009 at 14:45.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:27   #275
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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
When someone says ANHC is not overpriced, its not personal opinion but an absolute & generic citing figures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
Sir, but it was repeatedly mentioned here that ANHC is not overpriced & thats absolute & generic. When one assigns his own value to intangibles (& may be tabgibles also) as you mentioned & tries to say something, its promptly discarded as a Personal opinion. What to do now?
Fact : No overpriced product can be the sales leader in its segment. The ANHC & the Innova cost more than their competitors, yet are sales leaders due to the instrinsic value & all-roundedness. The sub 10 lakh segment is EXCEEDINGLY price sensitive. If the mass market (read = generic) opinion is that it is overpriced, the car wont sell. Something that the Jazz has gone on to prove BTW.

And for all those of you who think the ANHC is overpriced by a lakh, go back & apply the same principles of this thread to the Innova which costs more than 2 lakhs over the Xylo. And yes, I do think the Innova is also worth every rupee of that premium.

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Sir, that post was in response to below (not posted earlier due to my abstinance from this thread) :
Whatever it was in response to, the comment was ridiculous nevertheless. And if we apply the glass-half-empty approach, then also the ANHC comes out on top. As illustrated here:

Quote:
And if we are to apply VahanPujari's unique logic to each of the cars in the C segment, to see what % of the market DID NOT BUY a particular model (Innovative, I must admit), here are the results. For the first time, we are analysing each individual model and calculating what part of the market DID NOT BUY that car! In other words, what the car lost versus what the car gained:

- 86.81% did NOT consider the SX4 as good value (8797 / 66745)

- 86.37% did NOT consider the Linea as good value (9093 / 66745)

- 88.60% did NOT consider teh Fiesta as good value (7605 / 66745)

- 83.55% did NOT consider the Verna as good value (10975/66745)

- 54.65% did not consider the ANHC as good value (30275/66745)
Quote:
I haven't mentioned does not want. I mentioned Starts moving away & not Moved.
Fact is, no one has started moving away just yet. The Accords sales figures have been consistent for a very long time now.

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The resultant difference say 2 lacs premium, obviously one won't keep in a close safe. You invest it.
Please don't ignore the premium attached to other areas such as performance alone which will bring the 2 lakh differential to 0.

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Why are we so scared of Diesel ? Each of them - ANHC/SX4/Verna/Fiesta/Linea - does not have some or the other things in their Product offering. So what? I thought thats what was being dissected here
To the petrol ANHC, the direct competitor is the petrol Linea. Look up the opening post of this thread. If you wish to discuss diesel C segment cars, there are ample other threads. No everyone wants a diesel; the rough 65% market share of petrols proves this. Rumours have also surfaced that the Ritz petrol is outselling the diesel.

Quote:
Some consider, not being able to introduce Diesel cars in India (which has a large Diesel car mkt) as a Weakness However, some might also say, its a strategy not to spread too thin.
Without a doubt, it is a weakness. Honda could very well double their market share if they had diesels. Think about it, for all the numbers that Honda manages, it does so being the only manufacturer in the country to offer petrols exclusively (the only other being Porsche).
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:39   #276
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It is safe to presume that if you own the car for 50,000 - 1,00,000 kms, the City's initial asking price premium of 1.2 lakh rupees is entirely negated by its reliability, cheap ownership costs, segment-best fuel efficiency and strong resale. Heck, bring the poor resale of some of its competition into the picture, and the ANHC may actually work out cheaper!! Remember, there is more to the cost of car ownership than just the asking price. A 1.2 Lakh premium, that is more than recovered (relative to the Verna & Linea), well worth it IMHO. And then, you have those additional horses to enjoy.
While the comparison was very accurate, the calculation of the value is entirely incorrect. First of all, the price different is not 1.2 lakh. For instance, the original set of 5 alloys cannot be 18K. 5 15" alloys of Fiat Linea would cost 55K. I had read earlier that Honda city provides an exchange of the steels with alloys at a differential cost of 28K. That is the minimum I can expect. It charges about the same cost for fog lamps. I'm not sure of the Auto Climate control cost. Assuming it will cost about 15K and add another cost of about 5K for a CD player, the price difference over SX4 and Linea will be a whopping 2L and on the road, it will be easily 2.3L.

Also, you are not calculating the accident repair costs. Linea and SX4 would be the cheapest of the lot.

So, ANHC will have advantage in only performance (EDITed), reliability (though yet to prove, still expect it from Honda), fuel efficiency and power. Other cars have their own advantages over ANHC. So, the price difference (of an equally equipped, not necessarily on equal quality/reliability front) should be at the maximum of 50K (EDITed from 30K as I missed the performance), not 2.3L.

I will not be surprised to see more price cuts in ANHC or more addition to its value by giving more features at the same price or a downfall in its sales number. Agreed, it has proven over almost a year. Linea owners are reporting a lot of niggles. Moreover, mass people are not yet aware of the car. Lets see how it goes going forward. I put my bet on Linea (of course diesel + petrol together).

Forgot to add that if space is one criteria, Indica, Logan, Getz would be the best selling among the lots.

Last edited by opendro : 22nd September 2009 at 14:50. Reason: Added about space.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:42   #277
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Originally Posted by Ajay_J View Post
Just agree that Linea is the best... and war is over .
Linea is not the best car in the C segment. Neither is the City or Verna. None of them are the best because there is no such thing as the best car.

As for this thread. The Jazz is also a Honda and boasts of the same features as the City yet it does'nt sell and the City does. That's odd. Why doesn't the resale, better performance, fit / finish that work for the City don't for the Jazz? Maybe a new thread should be started. Meanwhile, I would really like to know if the sheet posted from Fiat's website is actually correct and accurate. How about some ANHC posting his service invoices on the forum. We have plenty of such invoices and details from Linea / Punto / SX4 owners. Why are Honda owner's so secretive?
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:50   #278
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
How about some ANHC posting his service invoices on the forum. We have plenty of such invoices and details from Linea / Punto / SX4 owners. Why are Honda owner's so secretive?
Amit Bhai , my ANHC has done only 2 services till now ( almost 6 months 3600km) . I will be doing 3rd service shortly. You can visit my thread here for details of 2nd service.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...lver-s-mt.html
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:52   #279
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The proof of the pudding is in eating it. IMO, the market is not receptive to the Honda marketing. Honda City with its powerful, silky smooth, yet FE engine, is spoilt by wrong Honda pricing. The sales of Honda is delining steadily. In Q1-09, the average monthly sales was 5227 units. In Q2-09, 2930. In Q3-09 [2 months], 2902, less than the average monthly sales in 2008, 3377 units. It will be an uphill task for Honda from now onwards. Either they have to add more features [like their competitors] without jacking up the price or reduce the prices to continue as market leader. It is shameful that Honda does not offer basic climate control, rear ac vents and spare alloy wheel [only spare steel wheel, I was told] leave alone Blue&Me for a car that costs over Rs 10.61 lac on road in Bangalore for its VMT version.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:53   #280
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GTO, you could have considered Ford Fiesta Petrol and Optra Magnum Petrol as well in your comparison.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 14:55   #281
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Meanwhile, I would really like to know if the sheet posted from Fiat's website is actually correct and accurate. How about some ANHC posting his service invoices on the forum. We have plenty of such invoices and details from Linea / Punto / SX4 owners. Why are Honda owner's so secretive?
I have a scanned copy of the estimate given to my colleague for the accidental repairs of his 10th Anniversary NHC.

Me & my friend were to see the prices of the Items like the Headlamps & Fog Lamps, the estimate read the prices like this:

1. LHS Headlamp: Rs. 7000/-
2. Fog Lamp: Rs. 8200/-

Are these prices correct ? or they are being quoted in such a manner to get maximum out of insurance ? we are enquiring about it, i will update once i get more information.

if the prices are actuals, then by no means it is cheap

Last edited by sharma_sanjeevi : 22nd September 2009 at 14:58.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 15:10   #282
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To sum it all up:

1. Sales - The sales figures decide which car is "Overpriced", so lets leave it to sales. To quote a famous song: "Ye public hai yeh sab jaanti hai public hai, aji baahar kya hai, aji andar kya hai"

2. Repeatability - Lets see, in the future, how many users repeat their brands/products.

3. Satisfaction - Features, gizmo's, stability will satisfy a particular car owner whereas the other would want overall driving ergonomics, performance, power & reliability. Its all subjective.

4. Resale - Again that depends on an individual. AFAIK a Petrol Linea will fetch a much lower price vis-a-vis a Linea MJD. What the Honda city will fetch is an entirely different matter.

5. Stability - A person buying a car, driving on the highway, say in Mumbai. Drives to Nasik, when can he maintain a constant speed of 120kmph leave alone 150kmph? Highly debatable. If he drives to Pune, will he maintain constant speeds of over 150kmph on those concrete surfaces? Again highly debatable. An average 'spirited' motorist driving on the highways in India maxes out at 120kmph, going up 130-140 in short bursts. So all the talk of a car going at 150 - 180kmpl is purely speculative & only a minority would do so.

6. Cost of Ownership - A person owning a car in Mumbai values time more than money. He would be willing to pay more money on a car that gives him the least amount of worries than on a car who's track record is poor. I am not saying that Fiat is a write off, but to regain "trust" and maintain it will be an uphill task.

7. Japanese v/s European - The debate will never stop, as i said, and repeat again, its subjective.

I love the Linea's price, features, looks & stability, I love the ANHC's VFM & overall ownership proposition.

Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. Cheerio.

Last edited by anilkalvani : 22nd September 2009 at 15:29. Reason: added: price
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Old 22nd September 2009, 15:12   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
...
Why are Honda owner's so secretive?
Service costs of my NHC - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...costs-etc.html (NHC - Service Costs, etc)
NHC CVT - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...erience-5.html (My new CVT - ownership experience)

I know these 2 threads. There could be many (I didn't search). I just own a car and there is nothing secretive about it.

About service costs:
General service costs around Rs 1,500 (before tax). Dealers are well within there rights to advertise their other services like anti-rust treatment, interior cleaning, etc. Its up to the customers to decide what to go for.

About alloys:
My car didn't come with alloys. I got my set of 5 alloys for Rs 15,000 (total price after tax) during Honda's 10th anniversary offer. Alloys look good, and in terms safety, better than steel. But that won't influence my buying decision. Actually I value the usability of reverse parking sensors more that alloys.

Last edited by msdivy : 22nd September 2009 at 15:15.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 15:12   #284
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To substantiate my claim of 2.3 L difference:
SX4 ZXi OTR Bangalore - Rs. 8.63 L
ANHC V MT - Rs. 10.67 L
Fiat Linea Emotion Pack - Rs. 8.61

Price difference is 2.05 L. Add climate control to the City. Or remove Blue&Me from Linea. The difference is easily 2.3L.

5 alloys for 15K. They are all eyewash. Even in the open market, any decent alloy cost 25K upwards for 15" x 6.5". Anyways, the price above is from Honda. No guess work.

Last edited by opendro : 22nd September 2009 at 15:15. Reason: Added alloy price.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 15:15   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
I respect Honda tremendously. I've seen from the closest quarters how they've changed the dynamics of Two-wheeler market a few years back. When Scooter sales were dead & the leader Bajaj also tried to concentrate on its weakness i.e. Motorcycles by cutting focus from its flagship/ BreadnButter Scooters biz, Honda Motorcycles & Scooters India (HMSI) came thereafter & launched their offerings - not with Motorcycles first but with Scooters - Automatic & Geared . The Scooter market which was reducing making way for exponential growth for Motorcycles, not only stabilised but increased Scooter market substantially which was actually being left out by existing players including market leaders.

Hero Honda Splandour is a legend. I heard during those times that Honda wanted to shut it that time as it has already served for 4-5 years timeline which might have been specified earlier. But the sales response & strong backing/support to Splandour by Hero Motors did not allow that to happen.
I hardly follow the two wheeler market (zero interest) and this info was an eye opener.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opendro View Post
While the comparison was very accurate, the calculation of the value is entirely incorrect. First of all, the price different is not 1.2 lakh. For instance, the original set of 5 alloys cannot be 18K. 5 15" alloys of Fiat Linea would cost 55K. I had read earlier that Honda city provides an exchange of the steels with alloys at a differential cost of 28K.
Okay, 28K? Still well worth it IMHO. After-market alloys for 20 K are still the best choice though.

Quote:
So, ANHC will have advantage in only performance (EDITed), reliability (though yet to prove, still expect it from Honda), fuel efficiency and power. Other cars have their own advantages over ANHC.
You forget the cancer that the other two petrol competitors suffer from : RESALE / RESIDUAL VALUE. Think about it, a manufacturer is free to price its new car whatever it wishes to. However, it is the used car market that decides the true value of a car. And if the Honda City commands a strong resale, that speaks volumes of its true worth. You can overcharge the new car buyer, not the used. Several real world examples here.

Further, resale has a lot to do with demand. Just the fact that the Honda City enjoys a 3:1 demand ratio to each of its competitors, it will so in the used market too. Well maintained Honda Citys fly in the used bazaar.

Quote:
Linea owners are reporting a lot of niggles. Moreover, mass people are not yet aware of the car. Lets see how it goes going forward. I put my bet on Linea (of course diesel + petrol together).
I place my bets on the Linea diesel too! Even though I loved the sound & feel of the Punto petrol, I've recommended only the diesel Punto. Reason : Nearly as quick, better driveability, and way better fuel efficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
As for this thread. The Jazz is also a Honda and boasts of the same features as the City yet it does'nt sell and the City does. That's odd. Why doesn't the resale, better performance, fit / finish that work for the City don't for the Jazz?
Oh c'mon, we've discussed the Jazz' market performance & the reasons behind it far too often in the sales analysis threads. The Jazz isn't quite a C segment sedan, though its price would have you believe otherwise, and neither does it offer class-leading performance. About resale : my prediction is that it will lose value quickly. Overpriced product + Low demand.

Quote:
How about some ANHC posting his service invoices on the forum. We have plenty of such invoices and details from Linea / Punto / SX4 owners. Why are Honda owner's so secretive?
Please search the forum to know more about Honda service costs. I am sure the ANHC is covered several times, while the Civic & Accord service costs have been outlined in this thread itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Ravi View Post
The sales of Honda is delining steadily. In Q1-09, the average monthly sales was 5227 units
Jazz effect, commonly accepted. Look at longer patterns. For the record, production of 4000+ for September has been confirmed for the Honda City.

Quote:
It is shameful that Honda does not offer basic climate control, rear ac vents and spare alloy wheel [only spare steel wheel, I was told]
Agreed. Like I said, the alloy wheels & climate control omissions are the most glaringly evident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by throttleking View Post
GTO, you could have considered Ford Fiesta Petrol and Optra Magnum Petrol as well in your comparison.
Have you seen how busy these boys have kept me Lovin' it!
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