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Old 17th September 2009, 16:35   #16
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Now, the most obvious equipment that the ANHC lacks is alloy wheels followed by climate control. To me, alloy wheels are more important than climate control. Cost = Rs. 18,000 for a set of 5.
I read from someone here that getting alloys from outside voids the warranty from Honda and getting alloys from Honda costs about Rs11000 for one (which of course doesn't void warranty).

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
On the other hand, what advantages does the ANHC offer, relative to its competition?

The lowest cost of ownership: The City's service costs vary between 600 - 1,500 bucks for most services, and go upto 5,000 only for the major services (4 - 5 times over 1 lakh kms). In an ownership of 1,00,000 kms, the City will be the cheapest to own by a mile. This is documented in several threads across the forum, Hondas have the cheapest upkeep.
Don't know about that. For an owner like my dad (who has an 2001 OHC VTEC at 1.3L+ kms), he's spent more than a lakh on service and running repairs. (This does that include accidental repairs). He's not thrilled about the fact that it goes for service every 5000kms while most cars from then (including the 2002 Zen I had) go at 10000kms.
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Old 17th September 2009, 16:54   #17
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GTO awesome analysis as always.

Your analysis gives a very different opinion on cost of ownership that other prospective buyers might not think of.

Probably this should be a separate thread instead of being buried under this crib. This would be of great help to first time buyers IMHO. Please move this to a separate thread
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Old 17th September 2009, 17:06   #18
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@GTO, great analysis, how about including the Ford Fiesta S variant in your analysis?
I know that the cost of ownership,resale, reliability and economy figures of a fiesta may not be able to match the city but how far behind is it.
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Old 17th September 2009, 17:42   #19
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The fact remains that despite the higher price ANHC remains the higest selling sedan in its segment. That means that the market considers City a good buy at its current price.

In other words, its is for the Market to say if a particular product is overpriced or not.

It needs to be seen if with recent price rise and also the competition hotting up, if Honda is able to retain the lead.
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Old 17th September 2009, 17:52   #20
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GTO - Spot on with your analysis.

Best part about ANHC is its iVTEC enging..it does pack a punch and give some serious competion to Cedia (but still lacks on handling dept)

Its lack of serious competion in its segment; Honda is taking customer for ride with their pricing (even with cost of ownership factor)

And I still feel most of the prospective customers will either
settle with competition for sheer VFM (regardless of cost of ownership in long run)
And some real enthu buyers will burn their pocket more and go for Cedia or Altis.

Obviously there will be those loyal Honda fans or those who buy for brand will go with ANHC.

Nothing against City, but price hike of ~50K for giving fog lamps, alloy wheels and some interior changes is no justice to Indian customers.
And all this when Old Vtec Plus had all these features, so why take it out in 1st place.

EDIT - Just remembered, City still lacks few basic things like ground clearance, under sized rubbers.

Last edited by vishaltanksale : 17th September 2009 at 17:56.
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Old 17th September 2009, 18:06   #21
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1. For a prospective buyer who zeroed in on a particular brand, has not much problem in selecting his car, as most companies offer just 1 or 2 models in the C-segment and that too are placed very distinctly.

2. For a buyer who zeroed in on a petrol model just because his daily running very low, he thinks of the value proposition. That's why SX4 sales have picked up for the last 2-3 months, after the City price hike.

3. For a buyer who zeroed in on a diesel model just because his daily running very high, all the diesel models starting from Dzire, Fiesta, Verna, Linea makes sense. Those who are preferring top speed and pickup prefers a Verna, those who look for a brand image go for Fiesta, those who look for 'looks' go for Linea, and many others who just need the cost of running very low, finally ends up buying a DZire.

4. The next category of buyers who just want a C-segment car but not yet decided on any brand / model, are a very confused lot, and they are confused with the brands, petrol models, diesel models etc.

So, we need separate comparison reports for the last 3 categories of buyers (2,3,4). GTO / any other EXPERT (please, not any 'biased' experts...), can you provide a detailed comparison for those 3 categories separately?

Last edited by romeomidhun : 17th September 2009 at 18:09.
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Old 17th September 2009, 18:16   #22
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Thats some analysis, but why was the Fiesta left out of the comparison. It would give a good competition as well.

While you compare the features offered it looks fine, but when you talk about the quality of the interiors and other small creature comforts offered by the competion the city is a let down.
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Old 17th September 2009, 18:51   #23
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Good comparison GTO. Still as Amit mentioned, for an "informed" buyer, Diesel at City's price makes sense if we consider savings over the period of time.
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Old 17th September 2009, 19:12   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
3 items that were missing in NHC are now available in ANHC - awesome looks (in my opinion), best power in class and good safety features across all variants.
Spot on!

Quote:
Among the items that it carries forward (from its old generation NHC) is the interior SPACE. Based on my experience/observation - there is no one who packs better space inside the car better than Honda.
It's the Japanese who boast excellence in packaging.

Quote:
Within the city, at parking speeds, it has got the best (read as light) steering and small turning radius - something that is a whole lot useful within the city where most of the usage is (for average customer).
Yet another advantage of the ANHC : It has the lightest controls within the city and the best gearbox.

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Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
Yes, your analysis is spot on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
I would add "as always" to that sentence!
Thanks guys.

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Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
GTO, when comparing the C segmenters, why was the Fiesta left out? It may be short of interior space, but the goodies it packs along with the S variant make the others feel overpriced.
The Fiesta's size & pricing makes it more of a competitor to the Dzire than the larger Citys, Lineas, Vernas and SX4s. The interior confines are seriously limited. But sure, if you insist, I can work out a comparo including the Fiesta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkc15 View Post
I'm curious to know your analysis on New Civic pricing as well.
In terms of sheer value, features & practicality, the Altis is definitely king of the C+ segment. Want me to run up a similar comparo of that market segment too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
However, let us consider the fact that the higher the premium of Honda over others, the lower will be the number of people who will see value in paying that premium.
Correct, but it is up to the manufacturer to tilt profits vis a vis sales units. And the ANHC is currently the leader within its segment, so obviously the market does see tremendous value in the city. Heck, each city right from the OHCs times has been a best seller. There is a reason why guys like us are still driving around in 7 year old OHCs with no upgrade plans for another 3 - 4 years. How many cars make you feel good for 10 years, newer competition be damned?

Quote:
For example, if City was priced at the same value as Fiesta, SX4, Verna etc; then perhaps the latter car models would soon be out of production.


Quote:
City can command a premium because of various factors.
It is not a factor exclusive to India, is it? Worldwide, Honda & Toyota command a premium for their engineering, brand & durability. I've even seen this in the states where brands like Hyundai will offer the same size + more features for a lesser price.

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Originally Posted by CBlazer View Post
I agree. I'm pretty unhappy with the way Honda goes about skimping on features, just because they can command the kind of premium. Forget ACC, alloys or fog lamps. It took them one year to re-launch the City SMT with better quality interiors. I'm sure they didn't need customer feedback to launch a car with good quality interiors in the 8-9L price point.
Honda was pretty shocked by the criticism toward the ANHC's original interior quality. I do hope they start providing climate control & alloy wheels across the board ASAP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
I read from someone here that getting alloys from outside voids the warranty from Honda and getting alloys from Honda costs about Rs11000 for one (which of course doesn't void warranty).
I'm not entirely sure of that. I've upgraded to alloy wheels for most purchased cars over the past decade (starting with the Esteem in '96), yet have never been rejected a warranty claim. Not even in the extended option.

Quote:
Don't know about that. For an owner like my dad (who has an 2001 OHC VTEC at 1.3L+ kms), he's spent more than a lakh on service and running repairs.
Rs. 1.0 lakh for 1.3 lakh kms is pretty reasonable, if you are including suspension overhauls, brake jobs, clutch, timing belt change, tyres etc. How about putting up a detailed chart on the service cost thread so we can evaluate? Either ways, without a doubt, Hondas have the cheapest upkeep cost in India. Just ask Ajmat, his Vtec cost lesser to service than his wifes Maruti.

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Originally Posted by musicvj View Post
Probably this should be a separate thread instead of being buried under this crib. This would be of great help to first time buyers IMHO. Please move this to a separate thread
Will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psp62in View Post
The fact remains that despite the higher price ANHC remains the higest selling sedan in its segment. That means that the market considers City a good buy at its current price.

In other words, its is for the Market to say if a particular product is overpriced or not.
At the end of the day, its the masses that decide the true meaning of value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishaltanksale View Post
Obviously there will be those loyal Honda fans or those who buy for brand will go with ANHC.
The Jazz has proven that the "H" bad is not enough. That's the BIGGEST misconception. While the badge may count to an extend in this segment, it is the product that really cuts the cheque.

Quote:
EDIT - Just remembered, City still lacks few basic things like ground clearance, under sized rubbers.
No doubt, I am not at all trying to imply that the City is perfect. On the contrary, it has many areas of improvement. However, as an overall package, it is still the best C segmenter (petrols).

Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
So, we need separate comparison reports for the last 3 categories of buyers (2,3,4). GTO / any other EXPERT (please, not any 'biased' experts...), can you provide a detailed comparison for those 3 categories separately?
Will surely work something out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoonwheels View Post
Good comparison GTO. Still as Amit mentioned, for an "informed" buyer, Diesel at City's price makes sense if we consider savings over the period of time.
Sure, buts its not like the City is the only petrol sedan in the market. It applies to ANY diesel Car versus petrol car. A majority of the market evidently loves petrols. Whether it is for their refinement, low usage patterns, or power, fact is the City outsells its diesel competitors just as the Altis outsells the Laura + Octavia COMBINED.

Last edited by GTO : 17th September 2009 at 19:15.
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Old 17th September 2009, 19:39   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

It's the Japanese who boast excellence in packaging.
OT, but you can add the Indians to it - Tata and now even Mahindra with the Xylo

Last edited by rrsteer : 17th September 2009 at 19:45.
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Old 17th September 2009, 20:06   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
In terms of sheer value, features & practicality, the Altis is definitely king of the C+ segment. Want me to run up a similar comparo of that market segment too?
Yes, that would be really great, as I'm sure there are many (including myself) who want to buy Altis over Civic or vice versa. I agree that Altis is almost a complete car in the segment, but Civic is quite tickling too! So budget/pricing is the dice (auto vs. manual as well).

Since auto tranny seems to be picking-up well of late, it may be better to add another dimension "manual/auto" to this analysis.

Thanx
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Old 17th September 2009, 20:18   #27
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GTO, nicely analysed as always. I had a question regarding your comment on European petrol cars' poor resale. When the majority of the market prefers petrol, how come diesels hold up their value better over time? Is the second hand market more biased towards diesel than the first hand market?

How come we haven't seen diabloo wade into this discussion yet? :-)
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Old 17th September 2009, 20:50   #28
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GTO , nice analysis as always , to spoil the party human beings are not alwyas rational we want more from our life always and can't always go by what our hearts ( excel sheets ) tell us . If car market has to behave fater looking at comparo we will have a 100% Maruti market .
Why does Honda appear overpriced ? b'coz we are getting spoiled by promises of newer cars with more features coming between 98/99 when Honda came in and till now internet has exploded and we are more aware of what is happening in other parts of world so we want more from our cars . This is reflected in changing dynamics Fiat with niggles become more involving and people become more enamoured by its features and ride quality . When they look at Honda City they find it underequipped .
If we go back and look we will see unit volume of Honda has been very consistent this is good news and bad news . As this means they have a loyal set of customers who un/conciously looks at parameters spelled out by GTO and take a decision based on that . It is bad news because there is a new emerging set of customers who may look at that sheet and still take a decision based on parameters which we do not clearly understand but is written between the lines .
Regarding pricing all Japanese products have pricing challenge because of fluctuation in Yen pricing and may be skimping on feature and try to sell on premium and quality this is a phenomenon you will see in Consumer Electronics also where Sony inspite of best quality is not the larget selling brand
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Old 17th September 2009, 21:31   #29
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@amit27
There will always be some basic things in a car like engine, space, reliability and ergonomics which will outweigh features like alloys, fog lamps and other small ones which can always be added (of course at a extra cost).
For ex I always wanted to buy a SUV, never finalized one. In comes the Fortuner and it automatically checks the right boxes which I expect a Toyota to give me. No more thinking.
Imagine what will happen if and when Honda gives a diesel across all classes ! It does not matter if majority of people who don't buy disagree.

So for Honda to learn to price right, there should be a Toyota in that class. I think GTO has reiterated what people think about Hondas and Toyotas. We should stop thinking people are stupid.

Last edited by srishiva : 17th September 2009 at 21:39.
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Old 17th September 2009, 22:12   #30
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the city and civic sell more in autoboxs. all those comparisions are rubbished after that. if i want to buy a automatic car under 12 laks there is only one option the city. after that it is either the civic or corolla. people like me who do not drive manuals anymore will pay the premuim for the badge and buy a automatic. i will not buy a base corolla over a automatic city no matter what. i dont care about the snob value or show off. its daily driving comfort which by pressing the clutch in bombay traffic will never help.
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