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Old 18th September 2009, 16:14   #61
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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
On the lighter side, I hope no one from Honda is reading your comments for it will cement it in their minds that they dont need to provide any other feature at that cost .
Hey, this post is brilliant, lightens the mood when the discussion was getting serious, monotonous & too much technical.

GTO - He is right. We hope no one from Honda is reading this thread

Last edited by VahanPujari : 18th September 2009 at 16:16.
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Old 18th September 2009, 19:17   #62
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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
GTO, I think you agree that even the SMT model should have factory fitted alloys.
Absolutely! I do agree that an 8.5 lakh Honda City MUST come shod with alloy wheels and will make it a point to let Honda know of this. That said, we can buy possibly the best aftermarket designs (read = better than the usually drab OEM alloy wheels) for 20,000. However, you cannot buy the other ANHC advantages (performance, efficiency, interior space, low cost of ownership, strong residuals etc.) for 20,000 in the aftermarket, can you? Though it is a disadvantage, this deficiency is the EASIEST one to fix. Easier than suspect overall quality, sloppy handling or a really stiff ride.

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On the lighter side, I hope no one from Honda is reading your comments for it will cement it in their minds that they dont need to provide any other feature at that cost .
Quote:
Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
GTO - He is right. We hope no one from Honda is reading this thread
Actually, I do hope that they are reading these comments and equip the ANHC with alloy wheels as standard. We tell it like it is. What's good is good, what's bad is bad.

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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
it has become increasingly reactive" is compared to its earlier times of say OHC/ NHC.
It's obvious that they'll react more to the competition now, than earlier, simply because the OHC days saw 1 main competitor (i.e. the Lancer).

Quote:
Its now not "only proactive" but reactive as well.
Just as any smart manufacturer ought to be. Starting with dominant Maruti. We have substantiated pretty well of how Honda has been pro-active over the last 10 years.

Quote:
The biggest proof is having to relaunch City in less than a year of launching.
Isn't it a good thing that they are trying to make amends within a year of launching? The more frequent the improvements, the better for us customers! This is similar to the extremely competitive United States, where nearly every car has an improvement (big or small) with each model year.

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But the major share in creating that overall competitive scenario (benefitting the market) is by SX4 & then Linea. Lets not take away the credit where its due.
Your original comment:

Quote:
Then it needed a Linea to start giving features like Chrome handles, Alloys etc.
Included ONLY the Linea. You have amended that with including the SX4 - which is a LARGER competitor - and thus, there is nothing to debate here. Exactly my point.

Quote:
But the Leaders always hate to lose even 0.1% market share. Ain't they?
In addition to 0.1% market share variations that are irrelevant, so are also sales figures over 2 - 3 month periods. No ones market share is consistent, it is always going up and down by a couple of points. I've already told you their production for Sept, believe me, the Japs know a thing or two about matching supply with demand.

Quote:
Last 2 months trend is for Jazz & ANHC. Last 2 years trend is for Civic.
I thought we were discussing the C segment and the City's success here. Over the last 5 pages, our interaction has primarily been on the City. Even my comparo post yesterday had exclusively to do with the City. Where do the Civic & the Accord come in? Have we run out of points to bash the city on? Nevertheless:

Quote:
Civic is beaten fairly & squarely by Altis to such an extent that the sales are in the ratio of 3:1 in favour of Altis. The market needed an Altis to understand that Civic is comparatively underequipped at its price.
No doubt on that. I will be, and have repeatedly stated so (in my monthly analysis threads), that the Civic is beaten hollow by the Altis. Nothing to debate here, the Altis offers better value. However, don't miss the fact that a large number of potential Civic buyers defer to the ANHC itself. 85% of the car at 75% of the price, wot (again, repeatedly mentioned on my sales analysis threads)? The Altis doesn't have a C segment competitor to the Civic and thus also sells an absolute base version that is very popular within the hotel taxi market. The Civic doesn't, as the presence of a 8 lakh sedan inhouse will take the pricing dangerously close. The Civic is beaten as much by its own sibling the ANHC as by the Altis.

Quote:
Accord which is a Superb product itself & a leader loses leadership to a Skoda Superb, a company which has nightmarish A.S.S.
The Superb is not only a newer car, but also comes with a diesel which accounts for 50+% of Superb sales. Thus, within the petrols, the Accord does outsell the Superb. Yes, both engines included, the Superb outsells the Accord. However, don't overlook the fact that the Superb is a newer product and has had some amount of pent up demand. Lets see how things pan out over the longer run.

That said, yes, the Superb makes the Accord (and other more expensive cars) look naked when it comes to features.

Further, as long as the actual sales numbers of the Accord are respectable (which they are), I don't see anything wrong with its performance. Or is being no.2 in a segment the next reason to criticise Honda?

Quote:
Jazz is far behind i20 & Punto
Jazz deserves to be where it is due to the pricing. However, I might add, the Punto would been a better market performer if it weren't for Fiats reputation and misdeed of the past 5 years. They are on the right track, I do hope things stay that way because they really do build one heck of a hatchback!

You missed the CRV, but I'll add it here anyways. Now that's a car that you can call "terribly overpriced" in its current position (alongwith the CBU Camry). What Honda needs to do:

- Alloys + Climate control for the City
- Features to match the Altis on the Civic
- More features for the Accord
- Better price for the CRV & Jazz.

Enough of OT. Please restrict our discussion to the City. Accords & others can be discussed on the sales analysis thread.

Quote:
If market share increases, then may we will need a Toyota car in this segment (a la Altis) to realise whether ANHC is underequipped or overpriced.
Too many ifs & buts, don't you think? Let a Toyota 8 lakh sedan come first, then we'll compare it to the ANHC. As of today, and for the past 10 years, the Honda City has pretty much dominated its segment. In 2009, it is still the ONLY true all-rounder from the C segment.

Quote:
Honda has to differentiate between Jazz & has to price new ANHC higher accordingly. Same manner, it has to differentiate ANHC & Civic pricing & has to price Civic accordingly.
Honda is in a tough spot trying to differentiate between the Jazz, ANHC and Civic. Evidently, there is a lot of product overlap.

Quote:
At that price, is Civic offering more value than Altis?
I don't think so. As things stand today, the Altis offers better value than the Civic.

Quote:
In next 3 months time, if ANHC increases or retains its market share, then kudos to Honda & its hard work for last 10 years. If not, then the trend & dynamics are changing in Indian market. Welcome to the competitive world.
Any reasonable analyst will tell you not to expect a substantial decline in the ANHCs sales. The Honda City has been Honda India's bread & butter for a decade. And in each of the three generations, has offered fantastic value, as the market success has proven.

Quote:
Technically, "Cost of Ownership" & "Pricing" are 2 different terms. "Pricing" should be Purchase Price whereas "Cost of Ownership" is spreaded over ownership period & could be a function of Pricing. Thats why I clearly written low Cost of Ownership but still Overpriced, IMO.
A car is not like a pizza where it is only the initial purchase price that counts. As is common sense, the overall cost of ownership is the real number that should really matter. Those that ignore this in their calculations usually regret eventually. Similar to the diesels, where the initial purchase price is higher, and the owner enjoys benefits over a longer period of time. As things stand today, the ANHC is cheaper to own than two chief competitors and about on par with one.

Quote:
OK. compare ANHC with SX4. Now both cost of ownership & Pricing are much much higher. SX4 has better service. Honda has average service.
I do intend to run a thorough analysis on this. But will add that the ANHC is worth every rupee of the 1.2 lakh premium thanks to its superior overall quality, better interior space, substantially better ride quality and higher performance / efficiency. We do pay more for better products, right? Else, we'd all be driving Nanos & M800s. The ANHC is a decidedly better car overall than the SX4. Our community thinks so, and so does the market which talks with their own money. As reiterated earlier, the City offers:

- Best in class performance
- Best in class fuel efficiency
- Best in class reliability & durability
- Best in class upkeep / maintenance costs
- Best in class resale value (only the SX4 comes close)
- Best in class interior room and packaging
- Best in class brand

No car ticks all the boxes, but the City does tick nearly all of the important ones. Last I checked, that is the exact definition of an ALL ROUNDER. As earlier posted, Honda & Toyota have never been about the features in any market. If they matter more to you than the other more important things (to me), you are free to pay for other brands. Hey, its a free market! Honda & Toyotas class-leading loyalty / return customers do a good job of indicating which requirements are most important to the market.

Two relevant paras:

Quote:
As stated earlier, the most glaring ommissions are alloy wheels & climate control. Simply no justification for that, agreed. But then, Honda & Toyota have NEVER been about features worldwide. Toyota example : a 12 lakh Innova till 2008 was sold without climate control. And the 20 lakh Fortuner, look up my report. No rear discs, USB input stereo, lumbar support seats, telescopic steering or air-con volume control for 2 million rupees! They've always had competitors like Hyundai etc. undercutting them on price and offer features (study the worlds largest car market = the USA). The money you pay for is for that added value of better quality & engineering under the hood. That's precisely why they also enjoy amongst the most superior residuals. If you want features for your money, sure, go to Hyundai. If you want the best engineering & durability in the class, go to Honda & Toyota.

Consider the all-roundedness of the Honda City to its competition and why it is the segment leader in sales. The SX4 : Loosely fitted parts, STIFF ride within the city, 4 seater (thanks to center arm rest of rear bench). Verna : Wallowy ride quality (just ask Sam) and pathetic handling. Linea : Neither is the petrol fuel efficient nor is it fast (quite the contrary with a 0 - 100 of 17.xx seconds), has its own share of niggles, and interiors aren't really intelligently packaged.
Quote:
There is no doubt about OHC Vtec performance & reliability.
Neither should there be about the ANHC.

Quote:
So, is Ikon as reliable as OHC Vtec? No, because reliability is measured in no.of defects in Lacs/ millions. Now there is a possibility that that 1-odd troubling piece comes to me. It can happen with Vtec, it can happen with any car. The probability varies. If its 1 defect per lac for vtec, it could be 2/3/4 times per lac for SX4/Linea/ others.
I'm glad you pointed the averages out yourself. It does NOT matter whether your single Ford Ikon was reliable or not. What matters is that, over 10,000 cars sold, the Honda City has proven far more reliable & durable than the Ikon. The chance of you ending up with a problematic Honda / Toyota is FAR LESSER than with a Ford or a Fiat.

Quote:
Rightly priced or overpriced also depends on individual views/ preferences & there is no end to it.
I disagree. Mine and your individual preferences don't count, as much as the mass market paying with its own cash does. Fact is, the market has seen TREMENDOUS VALUE in the Honda City for the last 10 years. And no one expects that to change too soon.

And no, it isn't so much about the Honda badge either. Else, the Jazz would have been a superhit. At the end of the day, it is all about the product.

Last edited by GTO : 18th September 2009 at 19:23.
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Old 18th September 2009, 20:40   #63
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very Interesting and Intense discussion going on since morning(and am following it intently).
Cant contribute due to constraints in office but will try to input my views over the weekend.
Till then let me have some happy reading

@GTO and Vahanpujari- IMO you both are correct in your own right and i appreciate the comments been inputted.

Last edited by harry10 : 18th September 2009 at 20:41.
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Old 18th September 2009, 20:55   #64
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Well I was one of the minority in saying that ANHC is not overpriced (though skimping a bit on equipment) when it was originally launched.
People compared NHC iDSI 'ugly' (my perception) people mover to the sleek ANHC with 115 horses, iVTEC, 15" wheels et al. They should compare the NHC VTEC to the ANHC, and the ANHC outscores the NHC VTEC on almost all parameters other than interiors, and possibly rear seat comfort ? Like I said in the one of the posts below, ANHC is probably the only car launched with more features, safety, comfort, space and host of other aspects 6 years down the road from the last selling OHC 1.5 and 1.5VTEC whose price remained almost same...

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tml#post991887 (EDIT: Now Launched :All New Honda city (Indian version)-full specs & features .)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post1073722 (EDIT: Now Launched :All New Honda city (Indian version)-full specs & features .)

Last edited by lancer_rit : 18th September 2009 at 21:06.
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Old 18th September 2009, 21:00   #65
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I am not a honda fan but there is no doubt about the reliability of Hondas or the vfm. Here in USA I drive an Accord with 1lac 53 K miles on it of which my contribution is nearly 20,000 miles. The only thing I had to spend was to refill AC gas. Recently I did a 1000 mile round trip and it is still a hoot to drive.
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Old 18th September 2009, 21:14   #66
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Well i have come to an understanding that VFM meaning is different for different people.
Honda to its credit has a wonderful engine and a brand name which they have built over a long time with a lot of hardwork and noones else can take it away from them. The only close competitor which comes close to both the above factors is the SX4 which has the Maruti tag attached to it.

For anyone buying Linea P- he gives more importance to looks and features and willing to take the risk with Fiat tag. He saves 1L for it over City and gets more features with an excellent ride and handling and is happy.

For anyone buying City- he is willing to shell out 1L extra to get peace of mind as is considered when you buy a Honda car. For him VFM is a good refined 118PS engine with a good service backup by Honda. He is willing to shell out 20-25k for alloys and gives a damn about ACC etc.

When i was buying a car, even after booking Linea i had a few doubts in mind and knew i had taken a risk with my 7L but then my requirements were of a solid build car with a class leading ride and handling and gizmos to satisfy me as the car had to be used on highways and finally went in with Linea over City.

Regarding ANHC being overpriced, it may be for a Linea or an SX4 owner but those who have experienced Honda's good service and their cars they swear by it and have atleast 2 Honda's in their garages. For them H badge is enough to spend a Lac extra with engine power being second preference.
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Old 18th September 2009, 21:25   #67
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Aren't the honda spares quite expensive compared to others in it's category ? I remember having seen a comparison chart of linea and other sedans, city spares were the most expensive of the lot.

Also, the "Overview of the Service" in the "Test Drive" forum for City did not rank honda highly on the a.s.s .

EDIT : Noted the discussion on the cost of spares in the last page.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 18th September 2009 at 21:36.
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Old 18th September 2009, 21:37   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdp1075
Aren't the honda spares quite expensive compared to others in it's category ? I remember having seen a comparison chart of linea and other sedans, city spares were the most expensive of the lot.
Oh Yes. The 30 part comparison was around 70k for Linea and Fiesta and 100k plus for City. People here say that ANHC requires less spare changes than a Linea.
Dont know how they came to this conclusison. People here have completed 10-12k kms in Lineas and havent seen anything being changed which costed them some thousand bucks or their suspensions or fuel pumps changed.

Accident parts are also most expensive for City acc to that list, eg electric ORVM costs 1400 for Linea and SX4 and 3k plus for City which is almost double.
Even difference in prices for front and rear bumpers was wide.
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Old 18th September 2009, 21:48   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oops View Post
E Variant has been discontinued since Aug
Doesn't mean the spares have been discontinued. The dash kit is available from the dealers.

Good discussion in this thread.
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Old 18th September 2009, 22:22   #70
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I fell in love with ANHC on the first drive. There is no doubt about it being the most balanced performer. But, (and this is a big-but), it scraped a speed-breaker as soon as I got out of the Ecospace on to the service road. In cities like Bangalore it is a deal-breaker. If only honda does something to raise the GC, I may find myself saving up for it.

Cheers,
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Old 18th September 2009, 22:27   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolboy007 View Post
Oh Yes. The 30 part comparison was around 70k for Linea and Fiesta and 100k plus for City. People here say that ANHC requires less spare changes than a Linea.
Dont know how they came to this conclusison. People here have completed 10-12k kms in Lineas and havent seen anything being changed which costed them some thousand bucks or their suspensions or fuel pumps changed.
That's because all Lineas are still under warranty period. Imagine if parts like driver seat assembly had to be changed after warranty. That's just one example and it would not even fall under those 30 parts covered in the magazine study.

On VFM, precision engineering is priceless.

Last edited by pmbabu : 18th September 2009 at 22:28.
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Old 18th September 2009, 22:30   #72
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Originally Posted by Su-47 View Post
I fell in love with ANHC on the first drive. There is no doubt about it being the most balanced performer. But, (and this is a big-but), it scraped a speed-breaker as soon as I got out of the Ecospace on to the service road. In cities like Bangalore it is a deal-breaker. If only honda does something to raise the GC, I may find myself saving up for it.

Cheers,
Su-47
Bangalore is an exception. Even the crossover SX4 scrapes some bumps in Bangy.
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Old 18th September 2009, 22:38   #73
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Well this is highly debatable as per me.
Of this lot Linea has proportions matching corolla/Civic. Compared to them the interior space is less. But compared to C-segment cars, it IS the most spacious.
One of my major requirements was a spacious car and it had to feel bigger than our zen (especially the back seat). And I checked with my full family and here are our observations:
Linea: Most spacious
City: 2nd best space after Linea
SX4: spacious front but back seat can only fit 2
Fiesta: most cramped and same as our zen



Maybe this perception is because of the low roofline of Linea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

- Interior space : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea
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Old 18th September 2009, 22:38   #74
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Quote:
OHC:
1.3: 0 to 100: 12.91sec (90Bhp)
1.5: 0 to 100: 10.68sec (100Bhp)
1.5 Vtec: 0 to 100: 10.01sec (106Bhp) (9.06L)

NHC:(ZX)
1.5: 0 to 100: 13.11sec (77Bhp)
1.5 Vtec: 0 to 100: 10.66sec (100) (Rs. 8.8L)

ANHC:(or City 09)
1.5 iVtec: 0 to 100: 10.28sec (116Bhp) (8.37L)
Overdrive got 9.92secs for the OHC VTEC.

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Old 18th September 2009, 22:43   #75
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In my view, ANHC is certainly overpriced for what it offers!

But, it sells in good nos even though overpriced because of the Honda badge!
People are ready to pay a premium for Honda cars coz for them Honda offers reliability, FE and Resale value!
Unless other brands match up on all these attributes, Honda would continue to sell well in our country!

But, Honda's strategy of milking its brand image may not work for long, look what is happening to Jazz!
And other car makers are catching up on their strong points slowly & steadily.

Last edited by finneyp : 18th September 2009 at 23:03.
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