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Old 18th September 2009, 22:56   #76
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1) The premium in ex-delhi prices is around Rs. 1.22 lakh between SX4 and G3HC/ANCH. This is not a small difference at all IMHO.

2) About the SX4 interior quality, its not the best as we all know, but rattling is not found. IIRC, there is a thread on TBHP with poll and we do get an idea that the car is not as rattle prone as people mention.

3) SX4 chassis is quite sporty which is not a surprise considering that the car is based on extended swift platform ( and hence shares a lot of things in common with Swift ). Yes the car does roll, but on stock tyres, the car's tyres and chassis combo are above G3HC. Handling is one department I wanted Honda to improve and take fight with Fiesta. The stock tyres are a shortcut from Honda.

4) GC, this cannot be ignored atleast given the current road conditions. Honda must work on this. Its not that the GC is low enough, but its rather the attitude of Honda that is irritating. They have received complains from Civic owners. Now forget even working on Civic ( what they can do is launch cosmetically updated version ), they go ahead and bring in G3HC with similar issue. This attitude is not good.

5) About alloy wheels. Apart from looking good, there is one more advantage. Alloy rims are lighter, so they reduce the unsprung mass, hence improving ride quality and handling. Also its safer to add in tubeless tyres with alloys than putting tubeless tyres with steel rims. This is something Honda cannot afford to lose. Alloy rims + tyres will cost quite a bit and is absolutely necessary with car having so much power.

6) A.S and S. is something I like to figure in for any car if we consider the car as complete package. Here SX4 is better. And on maintenance cost. I think G3HC spares are expensive as compared to SX4. Another negative for G3HC.

A small point is that Honda is selling City with plastic rim covers and paints the rim in black. This trend was pioneered by Hyundai through Accent. I simply hate this. This set up reduces the air flow to brakes, which is already low because of steel rims. This is pretty cheap thing to do. Honda can behave in better manner, atleast by not offering those plastic rim covers.

For me as a product i.e. the complete car, G3HC is the best. But as a complete package i.e. the car + A.S & S + maintenance cost, its SX4.
At the end of the day, I will still car G3HC as overpriced. They are asking too much and dont even provide better interiors and alloy wheels that we expect after paying Rs. 8+ lakh. The car being undertyred is another bad thing.

EDIT :
How about adding Fiesta in the comparison. This is one car that is very nice car and most of us like the car too.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 18th September 2009 at 22:59.
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Old 18th September 2009, 23:03   #77
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Originally Posted by neotraveller View Post
Well this is highly debatable as per me.
Of this lot Linea has proportions matching corolla/Civic. Compared to them the interior space is less. But compared to C-segment cars, it IS the most spacious.
One of my major requirements was a spacious car and it had to feel bigger than our zen (especially the back seat). And I checked with my full family and here are our observations:
Linea: Most spacious
City: 2nd best space after Linea
SX4: spacious front but back seat can only fit 2
Fiesta: most cramped and same as our zen



Maybe this perception is because of the low roofline of Linea?
Neo, this opinion of yours was contradicted in another thread. Cross posting relevant contents here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by neotraveller
+ Excellent rear seat shoulder-space (Fiesta < city < Linea < civic)
Quote:
For a six footer it should be:
Linea< Fiesta< Verna < ANHC< NHC
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I agree if you are 6', then you cannot sit near the windows.
All my family is 5'8" and below so rear headroom wasn't a problem.
Quote:
Less than 6-foot too. I'm 5' 10" and I felt the sides of my head rubbing against the C Pillar all the time. Legroom and seating posture of the Linea however is much better than the other two, but would you rather bend a knee that is meant to bend or would you keep your neck tilted all the time?

When the passengers on a Linea get out after a drive, you will be able to tell who the rear passengers were and who exactly was sitting on the left and who was sitting on the right.
That thread is here
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Old 18th September 2009, 23:19   #78
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Originally Posted by coolboy007 View Post
Well thats a manufacturing defect by Tata Johnson which is there in Linea
We are talking of the car as a single product here, not in parts and pieces and who supplied each one of them. Obviously, if a part is supplied by a 3rd party in a particular brand of car, I assume that car brand did its own QC to pass that. So, QC probably isn't as good as Honda?

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, am talking of normal spares being talked of, onsumables like Air filters, oil filters, fuel filters etc.
Spares are not consumables alone.

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Regarding warranty, even clutch plates are covered till a particular limit, leave alone seat height adjuster which fiat is changing whoever requests for.
Agreed, but we are discussing about the period after warranty when there are no more free replacements.

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And please dont tell me that onky Fiats face manufacturing defects. I have read a news of Honda recalling 4-5L cars for problems with airbags abroad where QC are much better.
No, no one blamed other cars. We only discussed how Honda is superior with respect to this.

Quote:
For assumptions, we can assume anything. What part to be changed in a Fiesta or a City after a particular time. Let the initial ownership threads go to Long term ownership threads. Problem is that there are very few active ANHC threads here to get a good feedback from owners on cost involved in normal servicings to compare with other sedans.
Agreed there aren't as many ANHC threads compared to other brands, but there are many Honda ownership threads which paint the same picture.

Quote:
Cost of ownership for Fiesta/Linea/City/Sx4 is a highly debatable thing. You cant come to conclusions so soon. Some carry 5000 kms service intvl, some 10k and some 15k, either you pay service cost in one go or easy EMI's
Exactly - City has seen 3 generations and 10 years providing the largest sampling period resulting in more accurate conclusion. One can't say the same about the others!

Last edited by pmbabu : 18th September 2009 at 23:22.
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Old 18th September 2009, 23:22   #79
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What contradiction? In that segment, the best shoulder-space is available in Linea and we have tested it thoroughly to our satisfaction. Trust me I own a Linea and have travelled with 4 people seated at the back too.

And for an average sized Indian, rear seat roofline is not a problem at all.
True there are exceptions, extremely tall people may have trouble near the windows. But then people above 6 feet are not considered average Indian height.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Neo, this opinion of yours was contradicted in another thread. Cross posting relevant contents here:

That thread is here
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Old 18th September 2009, 23:54   #80
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Im still not convinced. the interiors of the ANHC are low rank. I mean the plastics are nowhere close the to the ZX that was atleast better in terms of the interiors.
And the fact that Honda charges over a LAC more than its competitors for a car that has a very average engine (better than the rivals, but) and seemingly worse dynamics than the earliest iteration of the honda city. I do not find the ANHC vfm from any angle.
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Old 19th September 2009, 00:15   #81
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I had pointed out earlier in some thread that City's higher resale value compensates for that extra lac that you pay initially.
All that being aside, I do not agree that the City is the best car in the segment.
Breaking it down:
Power: I test drove the city when it was launched, and I recently drove two Lineas. The City is more powerful, but the difference in power is NOWHERE as significant as the numbers suggest.
Ride and Handling: GTO, did you miss this point? The Linea totally outclasses the City in this department.
Overall Ownership Experience: Although this is subjective, but ultimately this is what matters. I am human, not an accountant/robot that I would buy a car ONLY based on figures of cost of ownership. I would never buy the ANHC, because I like cars with personality. The OHC had its own personality, the Linea has its own personality, and so does the SX4. Unfortunately, I don't see that in the ANHC (and this is personal). I just can't live with the idea that I am driving a car, the tail lamps of which may have been plagiarised from the 3-series.
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Old 19th September 2009, 00:28   #82
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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Im still not convinced. the interiors of the ANHC are low rank. I mean the plastics are nowhere close the to the ZX that was atleast better in terms of the interiors.
And the fact that Honda charges over a LAC more than its competitors for a car that has a very average engine (better than the rivals, but) and seemingly worse dynamics than the earliest iteration of the honda city. I do not find the ANHC vfm from any angle.
I disagree to the fact that quality of the plastics of the ANHC are poor compared to NHC.Thought it looks a bit dull it dosent mean they are bad.Since I own both ANHC and NHC I know It's a myth.

You cannot consider iVTEC an average engine ,at least by indian standards.
What more do you expect .A car that reaches 0 - 100 in 10 seconds with a fuel efficiency that is comparable to some hatchs.I am now testing the fuel efficiency of my ANHC.Initial conclusion is that in the highway ANHC seems to have better fuel efficiency.

Shall post the fuel efficiency figures in initial ownership report http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...swift-vdi.html (Tale of Two City’s ( NHC and ANHC ) and a DDiS (Swift Vdi))


And the car is better than NHC in almost all aspects,including suspension highway manners.ANHC is not a NHC upgrade.Its a Junior Civic.

First and third photo is of our NHC
Attached Thumbnails
Is the Honda City overpriced? NOPE, I don't think so!-nhc-interior-1.jpg  

Is the Honda City overpriced? NOPE, I don't think so!-anhc-interior-1.jpg  

Is the Honda City overpriced? NOPE, I don't think so!-nhc-interior-2.jpg  

Is the Honda City overpriced? NOPE, I don't think so!-anhc-interior-2.jpg  

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Old 19th September 2009, 00:44   #83
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@GTO

Good writeup. But i would like to highlight a couple of points here..

(i) The dealership & *** of Honda is kind of nightmarish - I think Maruthi has an edge here
(ii) Though this is true for all non-desi brands, cars in india are priced more than they are worth and honda seems to be the one who exploits this the most - for the price i pay for an City here, i can buy an accord coupe in US. Ofcourse all cars are cheaper in US for the various reason but such price differnce is just too much. Before people start deploring this point, i know to many things contribute to the pricing & not just the Auto company itself - but still money is money, so i cant accept that fact that honda is not sold expensive here
(iii) I know its your personal opinion but this is the first time i someone saying that Jap cars are better than German ones - specially growing up in the knowledge segment. Japs make good, futuristic,FE cars but i feel they are not as upto the mark as compared to the German ones - Germans make CARS - real cars, carsas they should be made, IMHO.

Having said all this my next buy is a 3G City, I was waiting for the facelifted version to be launched. Now that its launched, the thing that stopped me is the nes that linea may come up with better performers - sorry am sucker for european cars anyday :-).
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Old 19th September 2009, 01:49   #84
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
That said, we can buy possibly the best aftermarket designs (read = better than the usually drab OEM alloy wheels) for 20,000.
But why? If there is a model with Alloys i.e. VMT is available, obviously the comparison has to be done with that model. Why are we so lenient with Honda? Why even after spending nearly 10 Lacs, are we ready to live without Automatic Climate Control (damn, even DZire gives it) & Alloys saying we'll fit after-market Alloys?

Quote:
Actually, I do hope that they are reading these comments and equip the ANHC with alloy wheels as standard. We tell it like it is. What's good is good, what's bad is bad.
No, I hope they're not reading this else such relaunches with increased equipemnts/ features are going to be remote depriving the market/ in the larger interests of the market.
Quote:
We have substantiated pretty well of how Honda has been pro-active over the last 10 years.
I would still be tempted to put had instead of has in above statement (another reason after your below quote). When Maruti (with SX4) & Fiat (with Linea/ Punto) are becoming pro-active, Isn't Honda (which has set the bar higher) expected to be more pro-active than what it is in recent times?

Quote:
Isn't it a good thing that they are trying to make amends within a year of launching? The more frequent the improvements, the better for us customers! This is similar to the extremely competitive United States, where nearly every car has an improvement (big or small) with each model year.
Yes. It is. Point is whether all these should have been there in 2008 launch model ANHC & are they a year later than the competition. As mentioned earlier still various items are missing even after being at around 10 lacs, which are expected to be there in a Rs. 10 Lac car with current competitive scenario.
Quote:
Your original comment:


Quote:
Then it needed a Linea to start giving features like Chrome handles, Alloys etc.
Included ONLY the Linea. You have amended that with including the SX4 - which is a LARGER competitor - and thus, there is nothing to debate here. Exactly my point.
No. My original comments (not 1 but 2) were as below, always including SX4 giving it actually the larger share of credit:

Quote:
Whether we like it or not Honda gave ABS & Airbags only after SX4 gave it. Again when it launched ANHC last Sept, it did not give what all it's forced to give now (within a year). This clearly seems reactive.

Quote:
First it needed an SX4 to force it to start giving new features like Steering Mounted controls, ABS, Airbags etc. Then it needed a Linea to start giving features like Chrome handles, Alloys etc.



Quote:
In addition to 0.1% market share variations that are irrelevant, so are also sales figures over 2 - 3 month periods. No ones market share is consistent, it is always going up and down by a couple of points. I've already told you their production for Sept, believe me, the Japs know a thing or two about matching supply with demand.
I know about that & can not underestimate their legendary Sales Planning System "Niguri". But based on that when I thought Jazz will meet its 2K p.m. target eventhoughits stiff price, it went wrong . To me, the market dynamics seems to be changing. If it is, its only good for the market, nothing else.
Quote:
I thought we were discussing the C segment and the City's success here. Over the last 5 pages, our interaction has primarily been on the City. Even my comparo post yesterday had exclusively to do with the City. Where do the Civic & the Accord come in? Have we run out of points to bash the city on?
Why do you feel its bashing? If you see 1st few pages, when the bashing was really going on, I stayed away. My actual contribution to the thread started only after your detailed post.
Also Civic came in because the original thread was "City gets some Civic Sense, Civic gets a new sense" in which those posts were posted. I feel they were there with reasons & not without reasons.

Quote:
However, don't miss the fact that a large number of potential Civic buyers defer to the ANHC itself. 85% of the car at 75% of the price,

The Civic is beaten as much by its own sibling the ANHC as by the Altis.
Thats Product/ brand cannibalisation. And its a bad Product Mix/ Equity strategy then. Then it also means that a part of ANHC sales comes due to Civic vs Altis battle. Also, is ANHC now entering into Civic terittorry interms of pricing ?

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That said, yes, the Superb makes the Accord (and other more expensive cars) look naked when it comes to features.
Precisely this is the trend I'm talking about of customers starts moving away from underequipped cars.

Quote:
Or is being no.2 in a segment the next reason to criticise Honda?
No. Nothing wrong in being No.2. As I mentioned earlier no leader likes to lose its leadership position. Leaders set benchmarks. And when they lose leadership, they genrally want to bounce back by finding reasons no matter the reasons are not so pleasing.

Quote:
- Alloys + Climate control for the City
- Features to match the Altis on the Civic
- More features for the Accord
- Better price for the CRV & Jazz.
Bingo! This is what I was trying to communicate. However, on pricing my views are at the end of this post.

Quote:
Honda is in a tough spot trying to differentiate between the Jazz, ANHC and Civic. Evidently, there is a lot of product overlap.

I don't think so. As things stand today, the Altis offers better value than the Civic.
Precisely. As I mentioned earlier Jazz is pushing itself in entry-ANHC pricing territory, ANHC is pushing itself in entry-Civic pricing terriroty. This leaves Civic vulnerable against Altis. It can't go up or down in pricing/ positioning.

Quote:
Any reasonable analyst will tell you not to expect a substantial decline in the ANHCs sales. The Honda City has been Honda India's bread & butter for a decade. And in each of the three generations, has offered fantastic value, as the market success has proven.
Yes. In all probabilities it'll continue to rule. However, there is always a possibility when the other models are loosing leadership positions.

Quote:
A car is not like a pizza where it is only the initial purchase price that counts. As is common sense, the overall cost of ownership is the real number that should really matter. Those that ignore this in their calculations usually regret eventually. Similar to the diesels, where the initial purchase price is higher, and the owner enjoys benefits over a longer period of time. As things stand today, the ANHC is cheaper to own than two chief competitors and about on par with one.
I disagree. Technical terms are technical terms. Pricing & Cost of Ownershiop are 2 different things. Also, almost equal (if not more) no. of customers in this segment are buying SX4/ Verna/ Fiesta/ Linea etc. Its not that they do not apply Common sense. their views are different. My point was whether no. of such customers are going to increase as compared to Honda loyals or not. This is where I say only time will tell.

Quote:
I'm glad you pointed the averages out yourself. It does NOT matter whether your single Ford Ikon was reliable or not. What matters is that, over 10,000 cars sold, the Honda City has proven far more reliable & durable than the Ikon. The chance of you ending up with a problematic Honda / Toyota is FAR LESSER than with a Ford or a Fiat.
Exactly. Lets assume its 1 defect per 10,000 for Honda. And lets assume its 4 times/ 5 times/ 6 times higher (i.e. 4/5/6 cars) defects per 10,000 for other cars. Heck, does it matter critical beyond a reasonable point? And remember we still are talking about "probabilities". You still might get a lemon with a Mercedese & you might get a trouble-free product from a Tom Dick Harry mfr.

Let me cite my example as a buyer when I bought a car in this segment this year:

Honda with its Reliability, Performance, Space management, refinement, resale etc commands a premium & I'm & was always ready to pay a premium.

Since last 6 years whenever I thought of upgrading my car,there was only Honda City in mind. Why? OHC. That was a class leading & true premium product. It gave Performance & so many premium/ luxury items as compared to its the then competitors. That has set it apart from others.

Circa 2009. It was ANHC. May be a better product than OHC as pointed by many here. However, the competition has also improved as compared to what was there 6 years back. SX4 & Linea offers much more features/ equipments. Obviously I want those features. Why not? I'm not looking at entry-level sedan, am I? And they're available in the market & not at the highest cost.

Alloys
Auto Climate Control
A Proper CD Player (with USB Port)
Rear AC vents (not in SX4)
Front & Rear Fog Lamps (was available in Accord/ Civic but not in ANHC)
Blue & Me with voice commands for Music Player & Mobile (not in SX4)

Plus few Little thingies which are available in some C+ or D segment cars
Chrome Handles & Chrome Strips (was available in Civic / Accord but not in ANHC)
Full-fledge MID showing Instant FE, safety features like door open warning, seat belt warning, speed warning etc etc etc
Rear Sunshade

I thought I was ready to pay a premium of Rs. 1.25 Lacs for ANHC. However, ANHC which was stripped off the above equipments was already higher priced to the tune of Rs. 1.25-1.50 Lacs. Since these equipments are available in a car in the market, I wanted it. Why should I not want it after spending 8-9 lacs on a car & when its available in the market? So, calculations start on cost of ANHC with all these (wherever available OEM & if not then aftermarket). With all these the difference in price i.e. premium was coming to over-2.5 Lacs. Naah.

What do I lose? Reliability, Performance, Resale. Damn Reliability. Most modern cars today are reliable & as mentioned earlier the incremental %age probability may come quite lower & still its only a "probability" (my humble Ikon reliability example was with me on back of my mind). If I were to visit service station 6 times a year for 2-3 hours spent each time or lets say in worst case scenario 10 days in a year, balance 355 days I can still enjoy all above & a bonus class-leading Ride & Handling ability & HPS Steering with better feedback.

These are strictly my views when I bought the car. However, it seems there are almost 50% customers in this segment who buys SX4/ Verna/ Fiesta/ Linea & views of some of them may be conciding with my views. What is interesting to know is - are the no. of such customers going to increase because of increased competition in the segment & availability of good reliable competitive products in this segment also like Civic & Accord segments. The probability seems less but not entirely rulled out.

With this, I rest my case here.
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Old 19th September 2009, 02:00   #85
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i mean, the interiors are low rent for a 10 lac rupee car.
And the engine may be powerful, but the way it delivers it is not convincing. its a grouse posted by a lot of ANHC owners.
To each his own, though
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Old 19th September 2009, 06:06   #86
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Originally Posted by coolboy007 View Post

For anyone buying Linea P- he gives more importance to looks and features and willing to take the risk with Fiat tag. He saves 1L for it over City and gets more features with an excellent ride and handling and is happy.

For anyone buying City- he is willing to shell out 1L extra to get peace of mind as is considered when you buy a Honda car. For him VFM is a good refined 118PS engine with a good service backup by Honda. He is willing to shell out 20-25k for alloys and gives a damn about ACC etc.
as a prospective c segment buyer in near future, i had like to give my 2 cents to your statement above

i live in vadodara, it has no sales and service for linea. the nearest service station is 120 kms far in Ahmadabad. At this point of time, features don't play an important role while deciding. you say i have to take risk with Fiat. but what if something goes wrong with the car. Where am i suppose to go? tow it 120 kms to amd to get the problem solved? i have been following linea's ownership threads and almost all owners have complained about quality niggles with part falling off. now if this thing happens to me after i buy one, what to do?

in that respect, city becomes a strong contender as it has sales and service in vadodara itself. by shelling out 1 lakh more, i can get some piece of mind that i would be adequately backed up with service in case something goes wrong, but than, i also have confidence in Honda's product that i atleast won't face any niggles as reported in ownership threads here.

i don't need alloys or acc as rule of thumb, but i do need piece of mind as a rule of thumb. thats where Honda scores. as for looks, i feel anhc and linea are at par, strictly imho. as for features, i give more importance to security features and comfort compared to some blue&me or acc.

on a side note, if at all Fiat opens up a sales and service in Vadodara, i would indeed give a second look at linea.

as of now i am more tilted towards anhc, and i feel this thread as come up at right moment for me to analyze further about my needs.

@GTO, hats off to you for providing detailed analysis.

Last edited by chevelle : 19th September 2009 at 06:08.
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Old 19th September 2009, 08:22   #87
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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
What do I lose? Reliability, Performance, Resale. Damn Reliability. Most modern cars today are reliable & as mentioned earlier the incremental %age probability may come quite lower & still its only a "probability" (my humble Ikon reliability example was with me on back of my mind). If I were to visit service station 6 times a year for 2-3 hours spent each time or lets say in worst case scenario 10 days in a year, balance 355 days I can still enjoy all above & a bonus class-leading Ride & Handling ability & HPS Steering with better feedback.
For me, I would like to visit the service station as a "planned" activity. For a scheduled service, for example. Not everyone has time to visit the A.S.S. every other day to diagnose and figure out if that new sound is because of yet another problem with the car. Heck, I have seen this very poster above not willing to visit A.S.S. once again (for some clutch issue?) in a span of few days. Again, piece of mind, is priceless.

Quote:
These are strictly my views when I bought the car. However, it seems there are almost 50% customers in this segment who buys SX4/ Verna/ Fiesta/ Linea & views of some of them may be conciding with my views.
Of course, yes. If all of us had the same preferences and same views, there would be only one brand of car and only one variant, right? For example, if I am interested only in a Diesel, Honda is out as an option right away. If all I need is thrilling performance with a damn sexy look, Fiesta S all the way, as frankmehta did. But there are also folks on this very forum who though want a Fiesta, did not buy the S variant because they want their peferred set of alloys etc.

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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
as a prospective c segment buyer in near future, i had like to give my 2 cents to your statement above

i live in vadodara, it has no sales and service for linea. the nearest service station is 120 kms far in Ahmadabad. At this point of time, features don't play an important role while deciding. you say i have to take risk with Fiat. but what if something goes wrong with the car. Where am i suppose to go? tow it 120 kms to amd to get the problem solved? i have been following linea's ownership threads and almost all owners have complained about quality niggles with part falling off. now if this thing happens to me after i buy one, what to do?

in that respect, city becomes a strong contender as it has sales and service in vadodara itself. by shelling out 1 lakh more, i can get some piece of mind that i would be adequately backed up with service in case something goes wrong, but than, i also have confidence in Honda's product that i atleast won't face any niggles as reported in ownership threads here.

i don't need alloys or acc as rule of thumb, but i do need piece of mind as a rule of thumb. thats where Honda scores. as for looks, i feel anhc and linea are at par, strictly imho. as for features, i give more importance to security features and comfort compared to some blue&me or acc.
Rightly analysed and strengthens the case for superior reliability.

Last edited by pmbabu : 19th September 2009 at 08:30.
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Old 19th September 2009, 09:42   #88
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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
i live in vadodara, it has no sales and service for linea. the nearest service station is 120 kms far in Ahmadabad. At this point of time, features don't play an important role while deciding. you say i have to take risk with Fiat. but what if something goes wrong with the car. Where am i suppose to go?
No. You should not. Linea is not the only best car & there are options available which meets your requirements.

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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
For me, I would like to visit the service station as a "planned" activity. For a scheduled service, for example.
Then you mean scheduled service intervals are important to you. What are the scheduled service intervals for ANHC & others?

Quote:
Not everyone has time to visit the A.S.S. every other day to diagnose and figure out if that new sound is because of yet another problem with the car.
Fair enough. You like it that way. I still am ok for 10 days in a year in a worst case scenario & enjoy all equipments for remaining 355 days. To each his own.
Also peace of mind & less visits to service station are important, then there is an SX4, may be Verna too which are relatively alright in these parameters. One should be open to weigh all options. I mentioned certain things because thats MY preference.
Quote:
Heck, I have seen this very poster above not willing to visit A.S.S. once again (for some clutch issue?) in a span of few days. Again, piece of mind, is priceless.
Pls do revisit that post & the context & tone it was written. Also check Neo's post & smiley in which reply that post was written in a particular tone. There are certain implicit things like tone can not be read but needs to be understood.

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For example, if I am interested only in a Diesel, Honda is out as an option right away.
No one has stopped Honda from introducing Diesel car in India. Right?
Not being able to introduce a Diesel car in India which has a large diesel car market can be considered as a weakness by some.
On the other hand, it could also be termed as planned strategy so as not to spread itself too thin over large no. of variants.

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If all I need is thrilling performance with a damn sexy look, Fiesta S all the way, as frankmehta did.
Yes. But check again his posts & his buying decision philosphy. He did not finalised S first. It was Zxi (or SXI) all the way. Reason ? huge price difference (almost 75K?) which he did not think justified. Finally he got S because he got a very good deal from Shaman that S piece being the last at Shaman which has closed down Ford ops. It was all about getting a good deal which is what I've been talking about all along.

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But there are also folks on this very forum who though want a Fiesta, did not buy the S variant because they want their peferred set of alloys etc.
You'll always also find people buying Optra or Aveo too.

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i give more importance to security features and comfort compared to some blue&me or acc.
Are not Fog Lamps a Safety feature? or are they only aesthetic features?
MID showing & gives warning if any of the door or boot open - Isn't it a Safety feature? Hell, my 7-yr old daughter who always sits in front seat thrice did not close the door properly & the warning has prevented any potential mishap. Thank god.
Is not Seat Belt warning buzzer a safety feature?
Is not Speed warning buzzer a safety feature?
Is not MID warning for failure of any of the lights (head/tail/side) a safety feature?
Is not Follow me Home lights a safety & conveneince feature?
Does not thick heavy body sheets translate into safer than lighter weight sheets? Hell, I guess Heavy body /sheets does not come without a cost - it impacts FE & vehicle-pull at lower speeds. But it adds to safety, Stability, and may be Ride & Handling to an extent.
May be I've gone too far. But these are imp little safety items exactly the same way you observed A-pillar spot.
All these are apart from the usual safety features which almost everyone gives in the segment (except verna which comes without airbags)

Last edited by VahanPujari : 19th September 2009 at 09:45.
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Old 19th September 2009, 10:47   #89
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Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
Well I was one of the minority in saying that ANHC is not overpriced (though skimping a bit on equipment) when it was originally launched.
The market proves that those who think the ANHC is overpriced are actually in the minority. Just the fact that its a best seller shows the markets sensibility in accepting the value on offer. Similarly, you can extend this to the Fortuner too. After all, a car is not only about the features; things like performance, engineering, allroundedness, long term reliability, resale values etc. also count. Of course we all want features. But I want performance, precision in build & ability to work that much more.

Quote:
People compared NHC iDSI 'ugly' (my perception) people mover to the sleek ANHC with 115 horses, iVTEC, 15" wheels et al. They should compare the NHC VTEC to the ANHC, and the ANHC outscores the NHC VTEC on almost all parameters other than interiors, and possibly rear seat comfort ? Like I said in the one of the posts below, ANHC is probably the only car launched with more features, safety, comfort, space and host of other aspects 6 years down the road from the last selling OHC 1.5 and 1.5VTEC whose price remained almost same...
The ANHC is a step ahead of the NHC in many ways. However, I wish they had retained the interior fit & finish of the NHC.

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Originally Posted by coolboy007 View Post
Well i have come to an understanding that VFM meaning is different for different people.
Honda to its credit has a wonderful engine and a brand name which they have built over a long time with a lot of hardwork and noones else can take it away from them. The only close competitor which comes close to both the above factors is the SX4 which has the Maruti tag attached to it.

For anyone buying Linea P- he gives more importance to looks and features and willing to take the risk with Fiat tag. He saves 1L for it over City and gets more features with an excellent ride and handling and is happy.

For anyone buying City- he is willing to shell out 1L extra to get peace of mind as is considered when you buy a Honda car. For him VFM is a good refined 118PS engine with a good service backup by Honda. He is willing to shell out 20-25k for alloys and gives a damn about ACC etc.

When i was buying a car, even after booking Linea i had a few doubts in mind and knew i had taken a risk with my 7L but then my requirements were of a solid build car with a class leading ride and handling and gizmos to satisfy me as the car had to be used on highways and finally went in with Linea over City.

Regarding ANHC being overpriced, it may be for a Linea or an SX4 owner but those who have experienced Honda's good service and their cars they swear by it and have atleast 2 Honda's in their garages. For them H badge is enough to spend a Lac extra with engine power being second preference.
I must say, coolboy, this post really tells it like it is. However, your second post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolboy007 View Post
People here have completed 10-12k kms in Lineas and havent seen anything being changed
We are talking long-term reliability here, not merely what happens in the first 10 - 12K kms. Its a fact that even 40,000 - 50,000 kms Hondas are known as "virgins". Heck, my 7 year old OHC Vtec has ZERO niggles, niggles that are being reported even on 6 month old Lineas & Puntos. THAT is the difference in quality. Look, its best for us to accept each product for what it is. I myself am a fan of the Linea & Punto (especially in diesel guise), but comparing the long term reliability, how they are screwed together or durability with a Honda / Toyota is going nowhere!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
I am not a honda fan but there is no doubt about the reliability of Hondas or the vfm. Here in USA I drive an Accord with 1lac 53 K miles on it of which my contribution is nearly 20,000 miles. The only thing I had to spend was to refill AC gas. Recently I did a 1000 mile round trip and it is still a hoot to drive.
I'd got myself a 90,000 mile Accord, used it for another 20,000 odd and sold it back for the same price as original. Parts changed = Only tyres for the Boston winters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Su-47 View Post
I fell in love with ANHC on the first drive. There is no doubt about it being the most balanced performer. But, (and this is a big-but), it scraped a speed-breaker as soon as I got out of the Ecospace on to the service road. In cities like Bangalore it is a deal-breaker. If only honda does something to raise the GC, I may find myself saving up for it.
Definitely. Its the ground clearance as well as the soft rear suspension at play here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
In my view, ANHC is certainly overpriced for what it offers!
Tell me, Finneyp, what then is value priced? The SX4, yes we will both agree. But it has been often demonstrated how the Honda City works out cheaper to own than the Verna & the Linea. Substantially so.
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Old 19th September 2009, 10:55   #90
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And what about the Fiesta? Why not speak of it here? It drives better, and (according to me) has better quality interiors. They are very cramped, compared to the ANHC but the car costs a whole 2-2.5 lacs cheaper than the ANHC and offers similar specifications, and maybe, a better engine (albeit with lesser power but seemingly better torque). It's as refined as the ANHC too. Only trouble is, its a 4 year old design and the newer age features such as steering mounted controls etc are missing from it!
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