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Old 19th September 2009, 23:18   #121
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Havent read the whole thread, but i think the 1500 for regular service is a myth, atleast in bangalore. Everytime it runs to 2000 +, and ++ if things like interior cleaning are done, which is usually pushed by dealer.

So if we go with bare minimum service charges, almost all these vehicles will have same charges. Only Honda will insist on 5k kms if you would want to retain the warranty
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Old 19th September 2009, 23:24   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
When Linea becomes a long term success FIAT will increase its price and reduce the accessories and at that time we will feel it is "horribly overpriced
and those who buy it will be considered ignorant
Glad that you are happy with the purchase of your ANHC as at the end of the day what matters is that both owners and mfr should be happy.
Whenever a man buys a car, he takes into 100 considerations and doesnt pull out a chit for what car to choose. 99% people remain satisfied with their purchases as they research a lot on tbhp and other forums before their purchases.

Regarding comment on Linea, what i think is that at present they are trying to regain their lost name in the market by pricing their cars low and providing gizmos with looks and basic neccessities in a car. If they hadnt kept a big diff between ANHC and Linea price it wouldnt have sold initially as at same price level people would have preferred ANHC over Linea.

ANHC has goodwill of OHC and NHC whereas Linea has the badwill of the Palios and Petras At same price levels people would have preferred ANHC over Linea but when the diff comes to 1.5-1.8L some give a second thought to Linea and then compromise on a few factors and save the money.
If they had bought a Fiesta or a Aveo or a ANHC some factor has to be sacrificed in all three cars.

Linea- Power, Fiesta- Old looks and interiors, ANHC-features and ride and handling compared to Fiesta and Linea.

BTW, i drove my friends Fiesta 1.6S today and the experience was awesome. The interiors are a bit bad but the engine felt so damn smooth and refined, i can say its better than all C seg cars. Coupled with that awesome handling characteristics i should have taken Fiesta 1.6 seriously when i bought my car.
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Old 19th September 2009, 23:57   #123
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'Price is what you pay and value is what you get'

Honda are certainly extracting a high price for the G3 City new version.

Several members on the forum have pointed out that that at current prices the new City can no longer be placed as a value car.

As Honda keeps raising the prices of the model with each new iteration, valuations get stretched.

The additional features added do not appear to add up in value to justify the price increase.

Several members have pointed out the core values of the Honda brand - reliability, low cost of ownership, durability.

Sure, the M800 offered the same values as many will testify.

Several members have mentioned their ownership experience and value of ownership with the previous generation 1G and 2G Honda city as testimony to the current generation 3G city.

Only long term ownership will tell whether such expectations are true or belied.

In the 1G city, Honda was testing the Indian waters and offered 100bhp etc.

In the 2G City, Honda surveyed the Indian driving conditions, 'mileage kya hai philosophy?' and offered the iDSI motor. Honda kept prices more affordable and positioned the city in the volume sedan segment.

In the 3G City, the pricing is higher. Core values remain but at a higher price point.

In the 2G and 3G City the Honda philosophy seems to be different.

Everyone knows that as prices rise, valuations become harder to justify.

In this economy, affordability is as important as reliability.

Honda seems keener on addressing the niche segment than the mass market.

The Jazz pricing is an example of stretched valuation and 'sticker shock' for the buyer. Sure, the core values of the Honda brand remain.

The buyers with deeper pockets will certainly plump for the 3G city but the value buyer will have to look elsewhere.
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Old 20th September 2009, 00:45   #124
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Yes it is overpriced....

Its isnt the safest of the lot ( I am speaking about the passive safety as in the quality of the build) Linea leads the pack here and no amount of money can get you that.

It isnt the best equipped of the lot. Again Linea takes the lead followed by SX4. Features like blue and me and "my car" cant be ignored and it isnt a gimmick... works mighty fine as well.

It isnt the best riding and handling car in its class. Again Linea takes the cake followed by SX4

It isnt the best looking car in its class.

The engine is the best in its class but cant justify its numbers on the road. Also I wouldnt call a 1.4 Litre 4 valve DOHC engine which takes the car upto 180 kmph and delivers more than 16 kmpl on highways either underpowered or fuel in efficient. The thing to note here is that an SX4 or a Linea would be safer doing those speeds, active and passive safety both.

As someone else said there is no end to this debate because going by this thread's logic no one should ever buy the Merc C Class or the BMW 3 Series when you can have Skoda Superb and Honda Accord for almost half the price and more features.

People buy a product in which they see more value and those values differ.

This is an endless debate which can go on and on. In anycase the thread starter's opinion is his personal opinion not a generic one so there...

Last edited by extreme_torque : 20th September 2009 at 00:54.
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Old 20th September 2009, 03:19   #125
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okay, good points GTO.

but why can't they offer climate control and alloy wheels. at the 1.2 lakh premium price. i don't mind if they have the premium for factors like build quality v-tec and fuel efficiency and power.but why not offer these features at the premium price. !!
and fog lamps man. you forgot fog lamps in the comparison! they don't offer these too!! isn't that supposed to be safety feature too?

they did a face lift and brought these features with increase in prices i think. and its only offered in the v variants. not S MT. you compared the basic version having abs and airbags.


also i am not a technical guy. but please gto explain why the torque figures for sx4 and city are almost same NM.14.XX but Honda has 117 hp. and sx4 has 100 hp 15% more power. shouldn't the torque be greater?? i just wanna know!! i find it interesting.

Verna petrol is the least vfm out of the lot. never should one dare to buy it!! its just my opinion!! and on the other hand i think the honda city automatic is the best sedan under 10 lacs. and linea if going for manual!!

Last edited by Caramelo : 20th September 2009 at 03:27.
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Old 20th September 2009, 09:30   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Yes it is overpriced....
Well, but...

Quote:
People buy a product in which they see more value and those values differ.
Rightly said. There is a reason why ANHC leads the pack in sales and takes the cake and why Linea sells worst of the lot despite sporting some first of its kind features, as claimed by some.

Quote:
This is an endless debate which can go on and on. In anycase the thread starter's opinion is his personal opinion not a generic one so there...
If the sales figures are valuable pointers, seems like the opinion is more generic than personal. Will you not agree?
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Old 20th September 2009, 10:27   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Havent read the whole thread, but i think the 1500 for regular service is a myth, atleast in bangalore. Everytime it runs to 2000 +, and ++ if things like interior cleaning are done, which is usually pushed by dealer.

So if we go with bare minimum service charges, almost all these vehicles will have same charges. Only Honda will insist on 5k kms if you would want to retain the warranty
My Civic has INR 750 + taxes as cost per minor service. I suppose you think I'm lying? An oil change service with synthetic oil costs less than 3000 (including taxes). I suppose that's a lie too. See the attached page.

Point of the matter is, if you have the time, patience and love for your car to take care of minor things like the interiors by yourself, it is as cheap as they say it is.
Attached Thumbnails
Is the Honda City overpriced? NOPE, I don't think so!-servicecosts.jpg  

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Old 20th September 2009, 10:34   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caramelo View Post

also i am not a technical guy. but please gto explain why the torque figures for sx4 and city are almost same NM.14.XX but Honda has 117 hp. and sx4 has 100 hp 15% more power. shouldn't the torque be greater?? i just wanna know!! i find it interesting.
Torque is the force required to rotate on object through its axis. Like force is considered a push or pull, torque can be thought of as Twisting force.

Torque is the actual measurement used to calculate the twisting force of an engine. BHP is a dervice measure to give the force equivalent (power), and is derviced by using the formula:

Power (BHP) = Torque x RPM / 5252

ANHC or most ofhte petrol engines have higher power due to their ability to maintain the torque at high RPM's. It is actually the diesel engine that produce more torque, but most of it comes at lower RPMs, and therefore, the peak power is lesser as they drop the torque rapidly as the RPM increases, due to their higher compression ratio.

How the engineers make use of this characteristic is by varying the gear ratios in accordance with the torque curve of the engine. The gear acts as a torque multiplier in this case.

That's why you normally come across taller gear ratios in diesel engine to exploit the low end torque.

The at-wheel torque for Fiesta (D) and ANHC (P) on the 4th & 5th gear through the RPM range of 1500 to 4000 is given below.

Name:  untitled.bmp
Views: 1534
Size:  579.1 KB

ANHC has the ability to maintain high speeds, even pull better at 5th gear, while Fiesta-D can only maintain the speed at 5th gear. But at the lower end it will pull much better than ANHC.

In summary, the torque and gearing at usable RPM range 1500-4000 is a better measure than getting misled by peak power.

While i did this for Fiesta-D to help my buying decision, i can do the same to prove Fiesta 1.6 is as good as the 1.5 i-vtec, but not before i post my initial ownership experience of my Fiesta Diesel or else i will have to face the wrath of unni.ak

Let us wait for GTO's analysis including the Fiesta-P before figgting further.

Last edited by oss : 20th September 2009 at 10:36.
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Old 20th September 2009, 10:42   #129
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I think the ANHC AT is the most sensible car one can buy if he is looking at an AT.

The other option is the Civic or Altis costing 5L more. The Civic has the same features as the City apart from climate control and few other small stuff.

The City offers better FE, has a similar 5speed AT box and also has the paddle shift.

It almost makes the Civic AT redundant IMO.
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Old 20th September 2009, 10:43   #130
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In my book, the Honda City is not overpriced. In fact, if i was shopping for a car in that range, the city is exactly what ill buy.

Why? IMO, the city has :

1) The best looks
2) The best engine
3) The best reliability

These 3 pretty much sum up the key requirements of any car.

Another great thing about Honda is that the owner knows that in all probability, for the entire ownership of the vehicle, they shall visit the service centre only for scheduled services.
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Old 20th September 2009, 11:08   #131
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The Honda City's premium image has been created because of the outstanding OHC . I am sure everyone will agree that the NHC was not such a great car as the OHC. Now that the ANHC is out, Honda wants to capitalize on that premium image, and initially came out with a car that lacked many premium features, like Alloy Wheels, Climate Control, etc.

My take is that when you want to project your product as a premium product and want to charge premium money for it, you should provide all premium features in it. And adding one feature every 8 months, just makes the people who bought it earlier feel bad and is not good business. If the Honda ANHC, in addition to its brilliant engine and handling, came out with all premium features in the initial launch itself, I am sure people here would not mind paying top dollar for it, nor would we be having this entire discussion.
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Old 20th September 2009, 12:04   #132
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I don't think the quality or reliability of Honda cars has been an issue, with NHC the design was and with the AHNC and Jazz the pricing is, but when it comes to the car itself AHNC stands out for its engine, interior space and exterior design, which was well received especially after the NHC.

The question is not whether you will use the engine power or not when compared to less powerful alternatives, the thing is power & speed are always good to have especially if it delivers great fuel economy with it. Why be limited?

The Linea is a good looking car but Fiat didn't optimise the interior space making rear space look cramped compared to AHNC and of course the engines are a letdown for some of us, but given Fiat's preceding reputation for poor fuel efficiency perhaps the decision to go for less powerful more fuel economy oriented engines is understandable to start with.

When it comes to AHNC overpricing, and I personally feel its off by a 50-75k, that only leaves a gap in the market or alternatives which currently do not exist. So let competition heat up and we will get more bang for buck here. Without alternatives its inevitable car manufacturers will take advantage of the situation, and Honda has shown a tendency towards premium pricing for most of their models when they can. For someone who wants power with good mileage, interior space and good design there is simply no alternatives to AHNC.

For instance with the Cruze if GM wants it can put significant pressure on Civic and Altis, Civic especially and give buyers a great alternative or join the others and skim the top and maintain current price value points.
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Old 20th September 2009, 12:46   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
Rightly said. There is a reason why ANHC leads the pack in sales and takes the cake and why Linea sells worst of the lot despite sporting some first of its kind features, as claimed by some.
How many times have we discussed on the forum that best selling car isnt 'the best'. The ANHC by far isnt the best in its segment.
Linea sales arent the worst in the segment... second to Honda City and has outsold Maruti's SX4. The achievement is especially impressive when you consider the old negative baggage it has to carry and previous to it, Fiat were doing a measly 150-200 cars a month!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
If the sales figures are valuable pointers, seems like the opinion is more generic than personal. Will you not agree?
It takes time to change opinions. Also it a well known fact that Indians are lousy car buyers. Virtues like handling, build and ride which are core values of any car are not important to us and we are willing to overlook everything as long as a car is fuel efficient.
Skoda brand was built on the fuel efficiency of the 1.9L TDi diesel and Maruti's continue to sell even though they are shoddily built (most of them).

P.S. Arent we making too much fuss about the reliability part. The reliability of the other in the segment is as good or may be slightly worse but not enough to overlook the fat premium and the lack of features and the fact that it isnt the safest of the lot.
Repeating the good old man here "Saying that I want Lexus because it is reliable is like saying I love my girl friend because she is punctual!". To me City has no character, yes its reliable and does the job asked of it but so does an appliance.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 20th September 2009 at 12:52.
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Old 20th September 2009, 13:11   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
In my book, the Honda City is not overpriced. In fact, if i was shopping for a car in that range, the city is exactly what ill buy.

Why? IMO, the city has :

1) The best looks
2) The best engine
3) The best reliability

These 3 pretty much sum up the key requirements of any car.

Another great thing about Honda is that the owner knows that in all probability, for the entire ownership of the vehicle, they shall visit the service centre only for scheduled services.
Best looks? That is subjective. Best engine: Okay I'll give you that one. Reliability: We don't really know since the Linea is brand new and even the SX4 and City are relatively new. Only the Fiesta can be somewhat judged. And there's things like interiors and ride and handling which matter more to some that the engine, looks or reliability.
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Old 20th September 2009, 16:43   #135
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I like the Linea a lot, but Linea does have shortcomings and I am not able to blindly praise it. I'll leave the rest of the post aside, but let's take on the engine here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
(For ANHC) The engine is the best in its class but cant justify its numbers on the road.
You are mistaken. It provides all rpm driveability including best driving conditions in the city. It also provides the highest FE, highest acceleration, 0-100, and whatever it is in the pack. And when you want to overtake on the highway, ANHC will vroom past the Linea and not be choking out of breath.
Quote:
Also I wouldnt call a 1.4 Litre 4 valve DOHC engine which takes the car upto 180 kmph and delivers more than 16 kmpl on highways either underpowered or fuel in efficient. The thing to note here is that an SX4 or a Linea would be safer doing those speeds, active and passive safety both.
A 2006 introduced, detuned 1.4l DOHC engine making 90ps and a measly 115NM of torque isn't worth talking about. My 6 year old Lancer will run circles around it in city and on highway with a 1.468l, SOHC, 3 valve/cylinder engine.
Linea 1.4 FIRE : 90ps @ 6000rpm, 115NM at 4500rpm
Lancer 1.5 4G15 : 87ps @ 5500rpm, 132NM at 3300rpm

Don't tell me the 1.4 Fire is great, it is bottom barrel stuff for a modern car in this class today. Would have been ok, if Fiat also launched a 1.6, and kept the 1.4 for entry level.
So tell me, what keeps this engine from easily being the worst of the lot among ANHC, Fiesta, SX4, Verna, not to mention 'old' cars like Lancer, Esteem, Corsa etc ?

The Linea desperately needs a more powerful motor. If I was buying in this segment, I won't consider it till a 1.6l plant is available for a car weighing ~1250 kgs.

Last edited by lancer_rit : 20th September 2009 at 16:48.
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