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Old 15th October 2009, 14:40   #661
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Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
TataMotors has to improve the quality of itys painting for Manza to be successful.
I understand your apprehensions in this regard. Its true that Tata is not 100% reliable.

But can I ask one general question to everyone in this forum?

If, Tata Indica/Indigo with good maintenance falls apart as these people claim how come all these years (from 1999 to 2009 - thats 11 years) taxi drivers repeatedly buy the Tata Indica/Indigo? Surely, they were not on a suicide mission? Surely their business also had to break even? Also parts costs the same for personal usage and commercial usage?

The point is perhaps some of these guys despite moaning from morning to evening still finds Indica/Indigo the best balance from their point of view. Now this would not happened if quality is as bad as it is often claimed.

There is a saying in automotive circles. You can never satisfy a taxi owner. Thats the mistake Tata made.
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Old 15th October 2009, 14:49   #662
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Originally Posted by Ajay_J View Post
E_T seems you have not sit inside Dezire. Its way better than old indigo and other similar cars in segment. Entry level sedans don't define any benchmark but Dezire interiors are very satisfactory to prize it quotes. Manza seems to eaqual or better it though.
We arent talking about the old indigo here... are we? The lower c segment has many saloon which have better interior quality when compared to Dzire. To name a few Hyundai Accent, Ford Ikon.
The interiors are satisfactory but hardly a starting point for comparison is what I wanted to say.
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Old 15th October 2009, 14:52   #663
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Originally Posted by Sudan_NFS View Post
"Power is best handled responsibly.which is why.the Indigo Manza comes armed with a host of advanced safety features that meet stringent international standards"
The above quote is from the e brochure which is misleading for the buyer .I bet the safety features given in Aura + will never meet a International standards.

TATA should be sued for this misleading brochure,why they all ways hype things?
Hi Sunda_NFS,
What makes you think that the safety features given in Manza Aura+ does not meet international standards? Do you have any test reports from TATA or ARAI to confirm this? Buddy, please refrain from making this kind of sweeping comments before you have the facts at your hand.

I would say we should cheer TATA that they have offered such MUST security features in this variant of Manza at least. Is this available in any variants of Switft Dezire, for example?

Disclaimer: I do not own a TATA manufactured vehicle nor do I intend to buy Manza. It is just that I felt bit bad after reading your post.

Cheers
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:03   #664
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Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
Now again like you said we don't have sufficient and exact figures so how in the name of your holy quadrajet can you term a car more safe than the other and lead yourself to blindfold conclusions about a car one has not even seen in flesh?

Now make that 45 page long thread with most appreciative comments from owners of TATA cars.
We do not have (m)-any indigo owners here and it is most unlikely that we will have bhpians running after a sedanised Vista.
Dunno about anyone else but, I have seen, and driven this car (not extensively though) and will be driving it extensively in the evening once again.

Further, I had only based my point on your very own words about 'thick & heavy sheet metal TATA cars'. And also on the fact that TATA does make cars with strongest category of Automotive steel. This being the reason for TATA's cheapest car to also pass strict Euro safety norms. FACT.

Also, I met a person who had waited over 6 weeks for delivery of a Dezire on the auspicious day of Dhanteras but after visiting TATA showroom today just before taking delivery of car (with his full payment Demand Draft in hand), cancelled Dezire and booked Manza even though he would now have to wait another 3-4 weeks. His past two cars were Alto and Swift so no Tata fanboy here. Another FACT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudan_NFS View Post

"Power is best handled responsibly.which is why.the Indigo Manza comes armed with a host of advanced safety features that meet stringent international standards"
The above quote is from the e brochure which is misleading for the buyer .I bet the safety features given in Aura + will never meet a International standards.

TATA should be sued for this misleading brochure,why they all ways hype things?
I would like to highlight here that TATA MOTORS is the only car manufacturer in India to have full fledged crash test facility. While TATA have been time and again been reluctant in features like ABS & Airbags (not in Manza though!), They still have one of the best collision dampening system in their cars through highest quality of steel used in manufacture.

Last edited by akhilesh51 : 15th October 2009 at 15:09.
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:13   #665
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I would agree to the fact that Tata vehicles do not age very gracefully and we do own one, so do a few of my friends (Indica & Indigo both). The heavy sheetmetal & general build may not be the best safety feature and rather i think stresses some of the components like hinges etc. which may cause rattles.

There have been cases of lemons from Tata and poor reliability of cars. It may be a personal experience but I think it is a bit more widespread than manufacturers like Maruti or Hyundai (major competitors in the small car segment). Sales of maruti and hyundai in the segment - both overall and as personal cars are not higher for nothing inspite of being more expensive.

For commercial use, taxi owners buy Indica/Indigo for low upfront investment and low running cost & consequently shorter breakeven on investments. They do not buy for the pride of owning, pleasure of driving or for ageing gracefully - which are important for private buyers.

Having said this, the workmanship in new models may have improved - the photos do tend to indicate that. As always on paper it is maximum car in the money they want you to spend. Some things I am sure have improved a lot - the gearbox is also from Fiat in Manza (something was mentioned about the gearbox in the ad).

Net-net : If I was in the market for a car I would want to hear some medium-long term review of Vista.

~maniac
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:23   #666
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Wow. This seems to be a Maruti Vs Tata thread. Great to know that a Tata vehicle is getting so much of attention. From the pricing, features and Space perspective, I think Tata has a winner here.

However, Personally I dont like the looks of the Manza. It looks like a stretched Photoshop job. The rear overhang is way too much. The tail lights look ugly. The interiors look good atleast in the pictures. I am not sure of the quality though.

With regard to what Manza would do to the market, I feel that it would be Linea that would bear the biggest brunt of this onslaught from Manza. All said and done they are sold from the same showroom.

I also feel Dzire would be affected but less so. People buy Maruti for more than just a product and thats where the difference is. If it were just for the car, Manza would be a better car in terms of space, engine specs, features and price (Not sure on the driveability and handling though). ANHC is not going to get affected. A Honda customer will not look at a Tata Car for sure. The Fiesta and Verna are sure also to get affected the former more so. Anyways 2 months from now, one would get a clear picture
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:28   #667
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
We arent talking about the old indigo here... are we? The lower c segment has many saloon which have better interior quality when compared to Dzire. To name a few Hyundai Accent, Ford Ikon.
The interiors are satisfactory but hardly a starting point for comparison is what I wanted to say.
Hyundai Accent and ford Icon has better interiors than Dezire ? I am speechless. You seem to have special problems with MSIL, dont you.

Last edited by Ajay_J : 15th October 2009 at 15:29.
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:29   #668
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Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
Finally, TATA is generous in using loads of steel in its cars and all that weight means 0-100 timings of this sedan are being compared to that of erstwhile matiz
If TATA has Steel plant also, does that mean it will use Steel generously into its cars.
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:30   #669
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Originally Posted by karanraheja View Post
Are you trying to say that a person with budget of 9 lacs would settle with a Manza for 7 lacs odd? I dont think the majority would agree. I think Fiesta 1.4 TDCI might face the heat since its not that roomy and only decently powered . This seems to be a great effort from Tata, from pics quality seems to have improved. But overall this surely looks like a great package. Dzire without a doubt would face the heat.
Karan so should we blame Tata motors to have priced Manza lesser than it should be?
Why won't a person with a budget of 9 lacs go for Manza if he is getting more for the less money?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
Well to be frank, this is quite a far fetched thought. TATAs had always been spacious and that has been there selling point. No other car gets you more sheet metal for your hard earned money than the Tatas. But then, that's about it. All TATA cars have poor ergonomics and apart from all that space the interiors are nothing to write home about.
Sure, they look neat but that visual appeal is all lost by the time the car clocks anything above 25K kms. Tell me, how many of us here have ever come across a decent looking 3 year old indica/indigo?
Talking of the rattles and squeaks in the dezire, sure they are troublesome but what would you prefer? A good looking but rattling cabin or a good looking cabin made of terrible plastics? Well, I guess we would prefer to prefer none but then buyers don't have much choice considering Ikon's interiors reminds of the late 80s, only saving grace being the meaty steering wheel.

Ah and that 90ps diesel, sure it has 15 ps advantage over the dezire and some more over the ikon tdci, which all looks fantastic on paper but I bet it won't look half as good on road. Why? Consider this,donkeys of years ago
the beloved ZEN had a 55bhp engine compared to 75bhp unit of the Indica V2 petrol and even a driver with driving skills of a rotten potato can tell which was better to drive.
Sure, some may argue that TATA has moved on since then but then again we all know how fun Vista is to drive.
Another weak point with TATA cars has been gearing. Which make otherwise acceptable performance below average.
Finally, TATA is generous in using loads of steel in its cars and all that weight means 0-100 timings of this sedan are being compared to that of erstwhile matiz (and i bet revin that puny motor of that puny car is more fun) and also due all that mass fuel economy should too very well be less than that of the tdci and dzire.

To be frank am not as dismissive of this car as I may seem to some, it sure is somewhat promising, but a death knell for that suzuki with odd ball rear looks, no that in all probability won't be the case.

So, who'll buy this new sedan?
em....not any of us bhpian I suppose. Maybe like all other TATAs it will make a good taxi, and I can see some boring government officials with gray hair happily being chauffeur driven in this boring sedan, and with all that space and the status of having a 'badi gaadi' (sedan) will make them all the more glad.


Cheers.
I beg to differ on few points.
We have a 3+ year old Indigo Lx and anyone is most welcome to check the interiors. They look good and decent even today. Yes. beige is a pain in Indian dusty conditions but a dry clean once in 2 months and they are back to new.

Terrible plastics? I sit in my buddy's swift vdi more than my own car and honestly i don't find any difference in plastic quality in both cars.

Have you ever sat in an Indica and Zen which were banged head on?
I had and then you realise why Tata makes Indica and Indigo heavy with all those steels cos it protects the car and the passengers.
BTW try to overtake an Indica which is above 120 in a Zen. You will get to know the difference.

My cousin's Indica gives 16-17kmpl. Our indigo 14-15kmpl. My buddys Swift gives 17kmpl. Another cosins fiesta gives 16-17kmpl. Current Vista gives - 16-18kmpl as reported by users. I fail to see how Tata can be termed giving poor fuel economy cars due to more steel.

Finally - Kindly refrain from making such sweeping statements. This forum has many members with Indigo,old indica,Vista etc and trust me none of them is a taxi driver yet. Am very positive there will be more in line to buy Manza as well. Lets wait and see how market reacts to the new release.
The old indigo's biggest negative for me was its 1st and 2nd gears or we can say turbo lag. However Vista does not have it and as per specs seems Manza would not be having it either so am sure this car will sell like hot cakes.

Cheers!
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:31   #670
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I have a question to TATA guys? When will they start building the boot(s) first and then add a car to it? I am seriously against TATA adding a boot to the car. They completely spoil the look of the car. Vista is a looker but this one? Not sure!
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:33   #671
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I wish things were as simple as you put them. Do you seriously for one second believe that death knell has been delivered to Dzire and serious thread to Fiesta, Linea or City. I think a person considering a City would never go near Manza. Dzire will still lead the lower C segment and the upper C segment would be ruled by ANHC. You fail to see the point that upper C segment car customers are brand concious and lower C segment car customers too, generally are little hesitant to endorse a Tata product. This is a step in right direction, but far from a killer blow or segment changer.
Agreed, Its not as simple as I made it to be. People wanting Maruti, will still go for Dzire. Also, theres huge waiting crowd for Dzire, which can translate into lot of sales for Manza, as Manza is new and specwise a better car than Dzire. Segment changer or not...well lets wait and see.

Honda City sales is not going to be affected anyway. People wanting brand and prestige, will anyday go for Honda. But, some comparisons can/will arise is what I meant. City and Manza to be mentioned in same line itself, is an achievement for Manza.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karanraheja View Post
Are you trying to say that a person with budget of 9 lacs would settle with a Manza for 7 lacs odd? I dont think the majority would agree. I think Fiesta 1.4 TDCI might face the heat since its not that roomy and only decently powered . This seems to be a great effort from Tata, from pics quality seems to have improved. But overall this surely looks like a great package. Dzire without a doubt would face the heat.
Yea, Fiesta 1.4 tdci will be hit. Linea will also face the heat. Verna top end doesnt even have an air bag, all it has is power, Hyundai's a.s.s and distribution and 0 - 100 acceleration is not everyone wants.

Here is this car (Manza) that has everything(almost) other than the looks. A regular car buyer who has Verna in his buylist can now consider Manza top end as well. Well, atleast I would consider, whether I buy it or not is a different thing.
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:34   #672
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
If, Tata Indica/Indigo with good maintenance falls apart as these people claim how come all these years (from 1999 to 2009 - thats 11 years) taxi drivers repeatedly buy the Tata Indica/Indigo? Surely, they were not on a suicide mission? Surely their business also had to break even? Also parts costs the same for personal usage and commercial usage?

The point is perhaps some of these guys despite moaning from morning to evening still finds Indica/Indigo the best balance from their point of view. Now this would not happened if quality is as bad as it is often claimed.
You are actually very correct here, frankly tata indica, indigo, and sumo/ spacio have made the most financial sense (even more than maruti) to all taxi owners. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and TATA has proven itself many times over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudan_NFS View Post
"The above quote is from the e brochure which is misleading for the buyer .I bet the safety features given in Aura + will never meet a International standards.

TATA should be sued for this misleading brochure,why they all ways hype things?
Would love to know the basis of your statement, some objectivity is called for out here.

TATA on the other hand could sue those who feel they should be sued. They do have a crash test facility in India (the only vendor to have one out here.), and their cars have always been know to do well in accident scenarios.
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:35   #673
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I am not aware of the nomenclature of the steel used by Tata/Fiat and the steel used by Hyundai/Maruti. But I prefer to perform the following experiment.

Hit on the doors with folded hand;
1. Maruti's doors go inside and pop out.
2. Same as point 1 in Hyundai.
3. Tata's doors donot flex so much but you can hear a reassuring thud.
4. same as point 3 in Fiat.
So the toughness of the steel used is indicated by this experiment.
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:36   #674
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Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
...While TATA have been time and again been reluctant in features like ABS & Airbags (not in Manza though!), They still have one of the best collision dampening system in their cars through highest quality of steel used in manufacture.
Fully agree! I would not be alive to post this had I been driving any other hatch- check this: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/885448-post1.html
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Old 15th October 2009, 15:38   #675
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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
I'm all for the Manza. I am quite surprised by a few people stating that they have not come across a Indigo/Indica which is old and in a good condition. My dad has a 2002 Indica and I drive a 2006 Indigo.
Totally agree, the condition of my 9+ year old TATA Safari would put to shame most other 4 year old vehicles. TATA vehicles can take abuse and are abused for that reason. The suspension tends to be capable of going through rough roads and potholes without a drop in speed, and hence the car faces further abuse. This is bound to show up somewhere, but if the car is maintained in proper service centres, with owners who care, the condition would be what we call "as good as Mint"
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