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Old 1st October 2009, 20:07   #16
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The Sumo is what, 17 years old now? It's sales are peanuts now. And Tata still wants to flog the dead horse?
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Old 1st October 2009, 23:53   #17
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The Sumo is what, 17 years old now? It's sales are peanuts now. And Tata still wants to flog the dead horse?
But isn't Sumo Grande an entirely different platform from Sumo?
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Old 2nd October 2009, 00:07   #18
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But isn't Sumo Grande an entirely different platform from Sumo?
I think it is debatable if Sumo Grande is new platform or not. Besides, new platform or not - it is not good enough.

Instead of(In addition to) working on the engine, I wish they work on the interiors, suspension and the handling. I was this close to buying a Grande with the attractive 80k discount. But wasn't satisfied with the product.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 00:18   #19
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Err Grande still has leaf springs at the rear which most other car manufacturers left when the Romans arrived. A family vehicle with leaf springs? I'm sure it'll sell in millions with its amazing ride quality.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 11:08   #20
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In my view Tata feels that they have a strong brand image with the *Indica* and *Sumo* brand names. As Vinod pointed out, these brands sell because they are cheap to buy not because of any particular brand value like the E-Class, 5-Series etc. Tata wants to move it's products like Not-So-Grande and Vista upmarket but they feel the urge to hold on to the existing brand names like Sumo and Indica thinking that these are strong brands. They are making a mistake here. They should have launched new brands that are premium over the Sumo and Indica and not associated the Not-So-Grande and Vista with these. Imagine Mahindra had called the Xylo Bolero-JingJang !!
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Old 2nd October 2009, 12:19   #21
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Quote:
GTO : The Sumo is what, 17 years old now?
The original Sumo is. The Name "Sumo" is. Not the Grande.

Quote:
Bouncer : But isn't Sumo Grande an entirely different platform from Sumo?.
gshanky : I think it is debatable if Sumo Grande is new platform or not.
Yes. It's different. Compare the numbers here :

Name:  Grande vs Plain.jpg
Views: 838
Size:  85.6 KB

And if you are still not convinced, go & check the engine bay of these two, and for good measure- have a view at the Safari too.

The 2.0 TCIC engine in the Sumo Victa's engine bay is just right. The bay is almost full, but with sufficient space to work.

The 2.2 VTT engine in the Safari makes the Safari's engine bay a little cramped. But come to the Grande, and there's so much space after putting in that same 2.2 VTT that you may be forgiven if you thought of putting in 3.5 VTT into that same bay.

Surely, stretching the dimensions of an existing platform will not retain the behaviour of that base, as does a new platform not come out of stretching dimensions of an existing platform. There's far more work required for a new platform, which is what we see in the Sumo Grande. And neither does a new engine come out of having a longer bore/ stroke.

What we seem to be missing is the similarity in the Sumo Grande & the Xenon. Apart from the longer wheel base & overall length, and the shorter cab /body/vehicle height (attributable to the different segments), it the Grande and the Xenon that have more in common between them than the Grande & the erst-while Sumo.

The above comparison is only between the Grande and the best/most refined of the Sumo family - the GX Turbo. The DI Turbo version of the Sumo has a 3.0L DI Turbo engine that churns out 70bhp / 223 Nm, but even this is based on the 3.0L workhorse from the 407. A different engine from the 2.2 VTT DICOR.

Quote:
gshanky : Instead of(In addition to) working on the engine,
I will still say Sid missed the point about the new engine. The Grande may be getting the full 2.2 DICOR engine, instead of the current de-tuned version.

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4x4addict : In my view Tata feels that they have a strong brand image with the *Indica* and *Sumo* brand names.
.... but they feel the urge to hold on to the existing brand names like Sumo and Indica thinking that these are strong brands. They are making a mistake here. They should have launched new brands that are premium over the Sumo and Indica and not associated the Not-So-Grande and Vista with these. Imagine Mahindra had called the Xylo Bolero-JingJang !!
LoL, A "New Bolero Xylo JingJang" .

A mistake that's done so often by companies. A very recent example is Maruti finally relegating the "Zen" to the background.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 12:51   #22
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I think Tata has finally learnt its branding mistakes, the very reason why the Vista sedan will be called the Manza and not the Indigo (or hoping so). The lesson has come at some price, especially in the case of the Vista, which is probably one of the best cars in the sgment with perhaps the least enticing badge.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 13:05   #23
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The biggest reason why it failed according to Tata was the pricing and to get it sorted they did a soft launch of the Grande with the TCIC engine or so. I fail to understand why they would give it a more powerful engine etc when they know from past that with the 2.2L they can sell it only at a higher price.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 17:34   #24
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JK:

So they have taken the best part of the Sumo Grande which is the 2.2 VVTI engine out and *relaunched* it with the underpowered 2.0 TCIC engine and now the expect it to start flying off the shelves? I still don't buy the fact that the pricing is the issue. Pricing is probably the easiest to rectify and hence the feeble attempt update the pricing.

I feel that The No-So-Grande needs to be checked in to a weight loss clinic first. Just look at this thing from the rear? Looks like an Elephant with gas trouble !!
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Old 2nd October 2009, 17:55   #25
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I also think the problems for Grande increased with the price reduction and design refresh of Scorpio. The difference between the Grande and comparable or better scorpio is like 50k. IMO for a 50k more I would get a scorpio. Thats what I did, got scorpio SLE( with ABS).

This could be the biggest strategic mistake from TATA. They wanted to position the Grande as a premium offering and wanted to compete with Scorpio.But scorpio definitely is a better product. They couldn't even compete with xylo and bolero. Eventually all mahindra products are leading their class and there could be a lesson for TATA in product positioning.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 18:03   #26
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maybe they need to do what maruti did to the estilo. create a buzz in the market again.
Despite the strong opposition, I stand to say it is a good looker. it needs some weight training thats all.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 11:29   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Yes. It's different. Compare the numbers here
Condor, the Grande is based on the same Sumo platform that was launched 17 years back. Sure, it has been suitably modified to bring it with the times (atleast trying to), but the platform is the same.

A similar example : The Bolero CRDe. Though it has been modified by Mahindra too, the platform is the same as the erstwhile Armada's.
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Old 4th October 2009, 02:42   #28
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Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
I also think the problems for Grande increased with the price reduction and design refresh of Scorpio.
Even if Tata make high quality product, people will not be willing to pay more than certain amount. Tata realized it. Let us say one day Tata makes an SUV better than Benz, people will be willing to pay the same prize as that of MBenz?
That is why Tata need to concentrate on the lower end, taxi segment. Tata will never succeed in making higher end cars becuase of its Taxi image. So why waste money. Concentrate on innovation, that will help the Taxi segment. They need a vehicle that can be repaired at the roadside garage, not one that need a computer to diagnose the problem. Now with JLR in their hand leave the higher end and luxury segment to JLR. Or follow the foot steps of Toyota (lexus) and Honda (acura) and create an entirely new brand for the higher end.
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Old 4th October 2009, 08:02   #29
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Even if Tata make high quality product, people will not be willing to pay more than certain amount. Tata realized it.
That is not how Samsung built a brand to become a global leader challenging Sony and Sharp, thats not how Toyota challenged Detroit and overtook them, that is not how Nikon, Canon and many others built their image.

Tata has a choice - it can remain a third world maker of low quality stuff or can grow into another Toyota. It takes a long time, success is by no means guaranteed..
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Old 4th October 2009, 08:09   #30
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The Sumo Grande does look very odd even when I saw it parked somewhere. It was as if two halves were designed by two different teams not communicating with each other. Scorpio itself is garish and loud but this one managed to make that look a lot more sophisticated.
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