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Old 4th October 2009, 08:19   #31
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now that there is a grande turbo, there is no point in having a 'slow' and 'slower' variant

plus the logistics of having just one 2.2VTT dicor engine series would be cheaper.

Question : can the existing sumo grande dicors be remapped to the new spec, or are there other components which differ as well?
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Old 4th October 2009, 11:03   #32
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The main reason why the Grande failed is because of the way it looks.The design is very immature and almost looks the Chinese copycats.Indian designers,wake up!
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Old 4th October 2009, 16:44   #33
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Getting the power back upto standard spec 2.2 Safari is a small step in the right direction,

They need to do a lot more work on the interiors and get rid of the leaf springs.
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Old 4th October 2009, 17:02   #34
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Ayan & 4X4 Addict are closer to the truth IMO. The redesigned Sumo looks amateurish, garish and too in my face. Not what we like.

No matter what the engine(which was definitely not the issue with the refresh), it ain't gonna cut ice in the market.
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Old 4th October 2009, 17:25   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayatarizona View Post
Ayan & 4X4 Addict are closer to the truth IMO. The redesigned Sumo looks amateurish, garish and too in my face. Not what we like.

No matter what the engine(which was definitely not the issue with the refresh), it ain't gonna cut ice in the market.
Looks are subjective, I actually quite like the new sumo grande looks, it is the detuned eingine, interior refinement and rear suspension that kept me away from it. With those take care of it would have gone close to safari terrotory. They do need to give a face lift as well to the sumo as the earlier look failed, but the proportions overall are good but the three aspects that i mentioned need to be taken care of first and then they have a winner on hand. Of course we all expect the Xover and the new safari would raise the game futher for them on the higher end and they can let the Sumo grand be a lot more grander.
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Old 4th October 2009, 20:28   #36
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ACM : ... it is the detuned eingine, interior refinement and rear suspension that kept me away from it. With those take care of it would have gone close to safari terrotory.

They do need to give a face lift as well to the sumo as the earlier look failed,..

Of course we all expect the Xover and the new safari would raise the game futher for them on the higher end and they can let the Sumo grand be a lot more grander.
COme to think of it :

Xylo's in
Xover looks to be on the way, to compete with the Xylo & the Innova.

M&M's working on their new SUV.
Tata's working on their new Safari / SUV.

If the Grande's upgraded with the better 2.2VTT, then Tata can place the Safari at a higher level than it is right now, but that will need better specs. Is this what Tata's upto ? New segmentation strategy ?
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Old 5th October 2009, 07:56   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AyAn! View Post
The main reason why the Grande failed is because of the way it looks.The design is very immature and almost looks the Chinese copycats.Indian designers,wake up!
I disagree. If looks were the only(or even a major) factor, then xylo would not have been this successful. IMO, looks and interiors are over-rated. The important things are

1) Driving and Handling
2) Ride quality
3) Price
4) Fuel Economy (relative to the competition)
5) Brand Recognition

For example, if Sumo Grande and xylo had the same handling and ride quality, sumo grande could win hands down.
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Old 5th October 2009, 08:36   #38
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That is not how Samsung built a brand to become a global leader challenging Sony and Sharp, thats not how Toyota challenged Detroit and overtook them, that is not how Nikon, Canon and many others built their image.

Tata has a choice - it can remain a third world maker of low quality stuff or can grow into another Toyota. It takes a long time, success is by no means guaranteed..
Exactly, The quality may be same, but Sony still commands a premium over Samsung. Just check the price of a 32" TV.
Toyota made better quality products compared to US counterparts from day1. People like the reliability of Toyota cars over cars from. And Toyotas are always priced higher their US counterparts.

Traxter, i am not sure what exactly your analogy means. Tata automobiles are "Value For Money", they are not exactly high quality. That is the reality, that is what customers expect from a Tata Automobile. I have great admiration for Tata Motors, While everybody including Ashok Leyland (Chinese bus, Nissan LCV), Mahindra (International Truck, Logan Cars) going for foreign collaboration, Tatas spend money on R&D and come out with reasonably good products..
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Old 5th October 2009, 11:49   #39
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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Err Grande still has leaf springs at the rear which most other car manufacturers left when the Romans arrived. A family vehicle with leaf springs? I'm sure it'll sell in millions with its amazing ride quality.
Err... Ford Endeavour, an SUV, also has rear leaf springs and sells at about 17L price tag and I am sure many people on this forum would swear by the absolute world class handling...

I am not justifying Sumo Grande's lack of quality here and I am sure Tata Motors themselves have been looking intently to revive the car with a whole new model in coming months with better engines, more refined interiors and altered looks.

Now most people have complained on this forum regarding:

1. Looks - Highly subjective. IMO, this UV has a very unconventional look and will be love it / hate it for prospective buyers. Anyways, I am sure not many people adore the looks of Xylo!

2. Power - This car has aplenty when compared to competition.

3. Price - It was launched at a hefty price, I agree. But since, Price have come down and they have even launched a cheaper version with Turbo Engine which is cheaper than any rival MPV in market (except Maruti Van, Of course!).

4. Refinement - Company has looked into this matter over the time and are bringing a new vehicle to improve on the quality.

On the other hand, Sumo Grande still has many positives that matter most in this segment:

1. Space - This car is still the most spacious of the lot with most comfortable rear seat.

2. Value for money - People may not believe but Sumo Grande is one of the most fuel efficient MPV in India today and can compete with any vehicle of its segment especially, Mahindra Xylo and Chevrolet Tavera.

Last edited by akhilesh51 : 5th October 2009 at 11:50.
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Old 5th October 2009, 14:47   #40
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The only reason for failure of Grande seems to be use of word Sumo coupled to a very simple and unexciting word like Grande. They should have used some fancy sounding name or a desert name like Atacama, Baza, Sahara etc. Bizarre names strike a chord with people these days and not simple words like Super, Grand, Deluxe, Majestic etc.( such names were used in 70s/80s ). And for Christ's sake why did they have that word Sumo when there is not a single body panel lifted from the old Sumo. Tata should learn from Hyundai who are selling new Accent as Verna in India and continuing with existing Accent. I may be the only Grande lover here but I find the vehicle very butch, massive and attractive from front. I find it waaaay better than Xylo. Xylo is more popular because success of Scorpio has rubbed off on it. But even Xylo is not selling in large numbers.

As for the looks, I don't think it matters in our country. Look at the list of successful ugly cars---Santro, i10, Wagon R, Indigo, Dezire, NHC, Jazz, Verna, Tavera, Innova. I do not consider these cars good looking from any angle.
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Old 5th October 2009, 15:49   #41
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Yep leaf springs at the rear is something that we live with with even the endy, so why not on the sumo grande - just the interior refinement.

Also they somehow did not do justice to the vehicle during the launch advt campaign.
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Old 5th October 2009, 17:52   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
The only reason for failure of Grande seems to be use of word Sumo coupled to a very simple and unexciting word like Grande. They should have used some fancy sounding name or a desert name like Atacama, Baza, Sahara etc. Bizarre names strike a chord with people these days and not simple words like Super, Grand, Deluxe, Majestic etc.( such names were used in 70s/80s ). And for Christ's sake why did they have that word Sumo when there is not a single body panel lifted from the old Sumo. Tata should learn from Hyundai who are selling new Accent as Verna in India and continuing with existing Accent. I may be the only Grande lover here but I find the vehicle very butch, massive and attractive from front. I find it waaaay better than Xylo. Xylo is more popular because success of Scorpio has rubbed off on it. But even Xylo is not selling in large numbers.

As for the looks, I don't think it matters in our country. Look at the list of successful ugly cars---Santro, i10, Wagon R, Indigo, Dezire, NHC, Jazz, Verna, Tavera, Innova. I do not consider these cars good looking from any angle.
+1. I completely agree. Sumo as a prefix does not do justice to this UV. The two sisters are poles apart in all terms and as soon as one hears the prefix, a certain perceived notion takes over which greatly harm capabilities of the new car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Yep leaf springs at the rear is something that we live with with even the endy, so why not on the sumo grande - just the interior refinement.

Also they somehow did not do justice to the vehicle during the launch advt campaign.
Once again, I completely agree. Refinement is the single biggest issue with this car and will hopefully be sorted in forthcoming iteration to be launched very soon.
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Old 6th October 2009, 10:41   #43
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The Sumo is about 500kgs lighter than the Endy so leaf springs are a bigger ride spoiler for it than for the endy. Going coil springs the way it is with the Safari would be ideal but is not really expected.

Actually with a 140 BHP 2.2 Dicor and 250 kgs wt less than the Safari than the Scropio the new Sumo Grand would be the fastest SUV this side of the Fortuner/ Endy. Should be able to do the 0-100 dash in about 12-13 sec.

Actually this is a bit scary given the existing suspension and brakes on the Grande, hope they do something to improve upto it.
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Old 6th October 2009, 10:50   #44
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ACM : The Sumo is about 500kgs lighter than the Endy so leaf springs are a bigger ride spoiler for it than for the endy. Going coil springs the way it is with the Safari would be ideal but is not really expected.
@ACM, looks like you have mixed up the Kerb weights & the Gross Vehicle weight. The Sumo & the Endy are approximately 1850 kg's, while the Sumo Grande is about 1950 kg's. The Endy's figures are a surprised when you look at it's physical dimensions.

I will not be surprised with any one springing up in disagreement of this, but pls do go back & check : I know how much my truck weighs, and have compared the spec sheet of the Endy very recently.
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Old 6th October 2009, 10:56   #45
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The more scary thing is that some moron tourist/taxi driver will have too much of power at his disposal. Even in their under-powered avatar, the rogue Sumo drivers are a pain on the roads.

Pradeep

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
The Sumo is about 500kgs lighter than the Endy so leaf springs are a bigger ride spoiler for it than for the endy. Going coil springs the way it is with the Safari would be ideal but is not really expected.

Actually with a 140 BHP 2.2 Dicor and 250 kgs wt less than the Safari than the Scropio the new Sumo Grand would be the fastest SUV this side of the Fortuner/ Endy. Should be able to do the 0-100 dash in about 12-13 sec.

Actually this is a bit scary given the existing suspension and brakes on the Grande, hope they do something to improve upto it.

Last edited by pradkumar : 6th October 2009 at 11:00.
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