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Old 8th October 2009, 12:30   #31
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Who needs the acknowledgment, Does Samsung need sony to acknowledge it today, Samsung is today a much more stable company compared to Sony (this was a year of major losses for Sony).

Similarly Hyundai will obliterate Honda in the long run, it is a part of the life cycle of Car companies.

American goods became Jap good, which have become korean/ Taiwanese goods, which will/have become Chinese/ Indian goods, which in another 50 years will go to Africa.
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Old 8th October 2009, 13:29   #32
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Every Japanese company started as a copycat. And made the copies much better than the originals in time. As long as the latter is the intent and outcome, what's the issue?!
Japanese copies were legalized. Koreans' aren't. That is the issue!
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Old 8th October 2009, 13:31   #33
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
Japanese copies were legalized. Koreans' aren't. That is the issue!
How exactly were the Japanese rip offs legalized?!
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:00   #34
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How exactly were the Japanese rip offs legalized?!
You can legalize a "rip-off' by buying the designs off the original manufacturer. The western media kept calling it rip-offs because at that time it was even sacrosanct to produce somebody else's designs (unmodified) just like that. But 99% of them were with written, documented license of the parent company. That is what I meant by legalizing. The Japanese were fairly strict with the legal aspects of their copies.

Moreover, even if the Japanese had copied illegally it does not make Hyundai's copies any less illegal. In fact it makes it worser since Japanese did all these things in the last century when the copyrights aspects of industries were much hazier than today.

Last edited by Trapezio : 8th October 2009 at 14:09.
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:03   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Every Japanese company started as a copycat. And made the copies much better than the originals in time. As long as the latter is the intent and outcome, what's the issue?!
Spot on! This reminds me of funny, yet inaccurate, market opinions:

60's : The Japs will never quite cut it in the market. Their cars are too flimsy, poorly engineered and are lacking in quality.

80's : The Koreans will never quite cut it in the market. Their cars are too flimsy, poorly engineered and are lacking in quality.

2009 : The Chinese will never quite cut it in the market. Their cars are too flimsy, poorly engineered and are lacking in quality.

See what I mean?

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Similarly Hyundai will obliterate Honda in the long run, it is a part of the life cycle of Car companies.
Obliterate is too strong a word, don't you think? For our own benefit, I do hope Hyundai doesn't "obliterate" Honda or Toyota. Nope, I don't see this happening at all.
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:37   #36
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well its hyundai's efforts to deliver quality cars with affordable pricing and better *** department with satisfied customer base which is why its standing next to MSL.Good going Hyundai!
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:47   #37
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
... made the copies much better than the originals in time.
Not sure how this fits here : Standing on the shoulders of giants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is nothing wrong in that. No need to reinvent wheel just to fulfill the quest for a original design. If you need wheels to put a car in motion use the round ones already invented 1000s of years ago and don't be ashamed you are copying a 1000 year old idea.

The important thing is how we "innovate". Don't confuse innovation with invention. According to me wheel was an invention and running it with a greased ball-bearing is innovation.

Cheers,
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Old 8th October 2009, 18:11   #38
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Find it wierd when people keep fighting about one brand of car or the other, but I guess thats because we're all so passionate about our cars, and we so desperately want our cars to be the best.

Personally, I like Hyundai cars, although they could be better, but the I10 is quite refined and the I20 is a looker for sure.

I also like Honda cars and really like the All new City, but well I do believe they goofed up on the Jazz, its refined and all that, but the price is crazy, and hey, the looks are quite boring vis a vis the I20.

I think Honda and all the other car cos do take Hyundai seriously, atleast in India. Simply cos they are the second highest seller in this country. How can anyone not take them seriously?
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Old 8th October 2009, 18:11   #39
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I will surely agree to this article as Hyundai lately has become a major and that is because of their price on the cars which they sell.
Honda on the other hand has a higher price range and thus fail to attract those people who have a higher expectation in a car but afcourse with a lower budget.
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Old 8th October 2009, 19:57   #40
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Once upon a time, Hyundi was a joke in UK, in fact it was so much more of a joke than Skoda or Lada that people didn't even bother to make jokes about it. As to other Korean cars, I had the misfortune to hire one once, I think it was called a pony (Kia? I don't remember), it was certainly a pig. It was brand new, just delivered to the hire company; I took it back a few days later with all the bits that had fallen off it. That must have been 80s, pretty much in line with GTO's sayings above.

Now, I am fairly certain that I want one, and that my next car will probably be one.

It is nothing against Hyundai that there are other, if-I-had-the-money cars. It is standing proud in its market. Honda still commands a premium, and it is going to for quite a while, but I dare not say forever!
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Old 8th October 2009, 21:33   #41
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I think Hyundai aldready has models out of Honda's league.
The new Eqqus limo (Based on the Genesis platform with its new Tau V8 engine) for example is way more expensive than anything Honda offers at present even if you take their American upmarket 'Acura' brand into context.
Next year they will launch the Genesis coupe and a V8 version is also rumored. Honda doesnt even have a decent sports car in its line up (stop calling the Civic Type R a sports car, almost all the new gen sports hatchbacks are more powerful) The only real sports car in Honda's range the S2000 has been discontinued and they've chickened off from making a new gen NSX.
Honda doesnt even have a V8 in their line up and doesnt have the balls to launch one. In the US they rely on their pseudo luxury tag 'Acura' to sell anything above $25k and dont have confidence in their own name. When Hyundai sells a $40k V8 Genesis they still use the Hyundai.
Nice of Honda to realise Hyundai as a threat, but they are way too late,
On the basis of sales first half of 2009, globally Hyundai-Kia is ranked 4th at 2,153.000 units globally, even ahead of Ford. Honda languishes in 7th with 1,586,000 units. Nice of Honda to wake up finally, better late than never.
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Old 8th October 2009, 22:00   #42
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Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
Honda doesnt even have a V8 in their line up and doesnt have the balls to launch one. In the US they rely on their pseudo luxury tag 'Acura' to sell anything above $25k and dont have confidence in their own name.
1) Honda has since long waved to remain independent. Since the days when I read AutoIndia, they were very clear that no alliance, they will remain independent. This is one of the reasons why are not able to accomplish all the things.

2) You have brought up topic of engines, well here it goes. Hyundai is part of something called Global Automotive Alliance. Here Daimler Chrysler, Mitshubishi and Hyundai were together for engine development. So Hyundai did not have to focus on developing engines themselves alone. This helped them to focus more on US market also and spend more resources for V8 development.

Honda was never a part of any sort of alliance, but all their engines were developed themselves. Honda's record for reliable engines is unmatched by Hyundai.

3) Why GM is keeping Daewoo brand alive ? In certian markets, people are very passionate about buying cars that are made by national manufacturerers. Hyundai has one strong base of buyers in S.Korea which no doubt has helped.

Overall, Hyundai has to work relatively less than honda for developing motors, and even less time designing cars as it they had some cars in mind already for taking design cues ( copying designs ).

Next is IIRC, the one who becomes head at honda, must go through the racing division ( as a head mostly ). This is reason why Honda's engines are overall very good.


Quote:
120kmph in my Hyundai i10 Automatic. The engine is buttery smooth & the gearshift does not give jerks. The fit and finish is top notch with no panel gaps and the dashboard feel and quality is excellent. All for a car worth 4.57L on-road. Tell me, is Suzuki or Honda giving a similar 4 speed automatic offering in the same price bracket? So where does the copycat tag come?

Sit in a swift and then in an i10, and feel the difference. 12,000 indian buyers must have found at least something good about the car before buying, isn't it?
4) Our M800 which has done 1 lakh kms+ is also good. Last night when I had gone to fill in CNG, I had to drive it in petrol. The car was very smooth to drive, some engine was there, but responded quite well, better than what i10 1.1 does. I have driven 1.1 thats why I am telling you. Its relative that is what I mean. To a Civic owner, M800 or i20 engine will feel not feel smooth.
The tag comes from other cars like Verna, Sonata, tucson, new tucson.

5) Similary, Alto was bought by 18,000+ buyers, so its better than other cars ? Numbers does not mean that a product is excellent. Hero Honda 100cc bike's engine dates back to 80's and it still sells more than anything, so does it mean they are best ? NO IMHO.

Rather than number, I still feel that Swift is better to drive than i10. I have driven both of them and my preference is towards Swift. May be because I am still in early 20's but I dont find that extra ordinary or good in i10.



EDIT :
Here is what I am talking about for engine development :
Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by aaggoswami : 8th October 2009 at 22:02.
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Old 8th October 2009, 23:33   #43
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Quote:
I think Hyundai aldready has models out of Honda's league.
The new Eqqus limo (Based on the Genesis platform with its new Tau V8 engine) for example is way more expensive than anything Honda offers at present even if you take their American upmarket 'Acura' brand into context.
Next year they will launch the Genesis coupe and a V8 version is also rumored. Honda doesnt even have a decent sports car in its line up (stop calling the Civic Type R a sports car, almost all the new gen sports hatchbacks are more powerful) The only real sports car in Honda's range the S2000 has been discontinued and they've chickened off from making a new gen NSX.
Honda doesnt even have a V8 in their line up and doesnt have the balls to launch one. In the US they rely on their pseudo luxury tag 'Acura' to sell anything above $25k and dont have confidence in their own name. When Hyundai sells a $40k V8 Genesis they still use the Hyundai.
Nice of Honda to realise Hyundai as a threat, but they are way too late,
On the basis of sales first half of 2009, globally Hyundai-Kia is ranked 4th at 2,153.000 units globally, even ahead of Ford. Honda languishes in 7th with 1,586,000 units. Nice of Honda to wake up finally, better late than never.
Having 8 cylinders alone doesn't make an engine good. The 4.6 ltr V8 from hyundai only produces 375bhp@6500rpm. Thats just 81bhp/ltr!!! I dont see anything extraordinary in this. The ANHC sold here does 77bhp/ltr.

Getting 81bhp/ltr from a 4.6ltr V8 is nothing compared to achieving 112bhp/ltr from a 2ltr 4 cyl engine.

More bhp/ltr means you need stronger engine parts which have to be as light as possible and capable of handling high engine speeds. Higher the engine speed, greater the chances of something going wrong, so these engines have to be far more efficient than bigger low output engines.

So understand what has gone into making an engine before comparing engine capacity or the number of cylinders...

Like they say....Its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog that matters. The Civic Type R is like a tiny little 2ltr Chihuahua, that can spank the daylights out of a V8 Great Dane.

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Old 8th October 2009, 23:45   #44
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Shan2nu, its absolutely true but have you realized how companies like Honda take customers and quality for granted now a days? I own a year old civic and trust me, a Hyundai's fit and finish is at par, if not a bit better. At the same time the cars come with more standard kit and a better warranty.

Honda took its own sweet time to reach the level so as to produce the Civic Type R motor. What makes you think that others can not do it given the time?
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Old 9th October 2009, 00:05   #45
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Honda took its own sweet time to reach the level so as to produce the Civic Type R motor. What makes you think that others can not do it given the time?
My reply was based on the notion that a V8 is better than a V6 or I4, just bcoz it has more number of cylinders.

Its not the engine but the state of tune that matters. This is what i was trying to explain.

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