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Old 27th October 2009, 17:39   #91
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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
SX4 has effectively moved a 1/2 segment down. From being a competitor to City (NHC) it is now clearly a level below the ANHC, wrt to interior quality, Auto 4vs 5 speed paddle shift, Engine power etc. Gets beaten in almost all aspects except perhaps the ride hight and Climate control.
ANHC was no good on the interiors to start off with, hence the recent 'correction'.

Technically, 5 speed paddle shifts may sound superior over the 4 speed Auto boxes; however most (99%) folks prefer the 'D' mode and let the auto boxes do the needful.
Hyundais & Toyotas still sell the 4 speed ones?

Engine power and refinement, yes. SX4 gets beaten by the City.

However, close to 2 Lacs is a lot of money + spares / service.
Maruti would trump all and sundry here.
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Old 27th October 2009, 18:54   #92
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(Ex showroom - Chennai)
MARUTI SX4 VXI (BHARAT STAGE-III) - 658403.84
MARUTI SX4 ZXI (BHARAT STAGE-III) - 726406.71
MARUTI SX4 ZXI WITH LEATHER(BHARAT STAGE-III) - 759929.26
And guess what, the price increase is such a marginal one? Why maruti, why?
You don't want good returns on your investment? How will you manage if you play like a small car manufacturer? Learn from Honda, you should increase it at least by good amount. Are you not confident about your products? When will you have such a confidence in your products pls?

MARUTI SX4 VXI (BHARAT STAGE-III)
(658403.84 - 680403.39) = 21999.55 = 3.34%
MARUTI SX4 ZXI (BHARAT STAGE-III)
(726406.71 - 749406.39) = 22999.68 = 3.16 %
MARUTI SX4 ZXI WITH LEATHER(BHARAT STAGE-III)
(759929.26 - 782929.39) = 23000.13 = 3.02%
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Old 27th October 2009, 19:38   #93
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Any idea what is the City's power at say 5600 rpm ? Should be in a comparitive range i guess.

When would you ever cross 4500-5000 rpm band in normal driving (city or highway) ? I suppose Never.

IMO, it is pointless to look for BHP numbers beyond a certain rpm range. More power & torque at lower rpms is what makes a difference.
People who want low end performance don't buy VVT engines buddy, they're more than happy with a Turbo Diesel. Infact VVT engines are not very good in their low end performance as they run a milder cam profile than regular non-vvt engines.

The whole point of having VVT is to be able to get the best performance and fuel economy from the same engine. Which is why i said that Maruti has launched this car with FE in mind since there isn't much change in the performance part of it.

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Last edited by Shan2nu : 27th October 2009 at 19:40.
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Old 27th October 2009, 20:19   #94
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^^
I would have to agree with the technical aspects of your note since I dont have the knowledge to say or not otherwise.

However, from a general consumer's perspective, I would say that they would buy a diesel not for low end performance, but solely for economy and high mileage running. Most of them wouldnt even understand the torque figures and differences.

And for sure they wouldnt be going upwards of 3000 rpm for most times, in daily driving; irrespective of petrols or diesels. Hence, the performance in the 1500-3500 rpm matter more IMO.

And yes, the City would 'feel' better refined & powered than the sx4 - VVT or not.
No second thoughts there.
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Old 27th October 2009, 20:25   #95
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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
SX4 has effectively moved a 1/2 segment down. From being a competitor to City (NHC) it is now clearly a level below the ANHC, wrt to interior quality, Auto 4vs 5 speed paddle shift, Engine power etc. Gets beaten in almost all aspects except perhaps the ride hight and Climate control.
I don't think it has moved any segment down. By pricing it higher, Honda has has only moved the ANHC a segment higher. At 2 lakhs less, it is still a great VFM car.
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Old 27th October 2009, 20:46   #96
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Any invitations for test drives from Maruti like we had for the Ritz where GTO was invited ?
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Old 27th October 2009, 21:01   #97
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I simply dont agree.

VVT's basically reduce the air flow into the engine at low RPM by closing the intake valve early(about BDC time). This introduces higher tumble in the combustion chamber basically delaying the flame travel and this increasing the low end torque. The old engines used to have very low lift with early closures to do this.

But as time progress the BHP(like our 104 vs 115 bhp) wars have forced the manufacturers to up the power which means the engine has to breath more air and the simplest way of doing it is to increase lift and increase timing. This has reduced the availability of low end torque. For example the old 800(35 bhp one) used to produce its peak torque around 3500rpm but the MPFI(45 bhp one) used to produce its peak torque around 4500 rpm.


Now the VVT's enhance high end power too(a bit) by delaying the intake valve closure. This means you get some what best of both worlds. In fact the computer controlled variants of the VVT can increase the air flow by about 10%(above certain RPM) per stroke increasing the torque and power instantly, largely improving the feel of the car(what we all call sporty).

So what they have done with the SX4 is that they have bought in the VVT and reduced the valve lift by about 8%. This will enhance the FE of the car overall and be quite a bit more torquey at low RPMs. This also means that the engine will idle beautifully with shell petrol at 500 odd RPM(my biggest issue with the older engine).

At 5600 the City is about 82% of its power range and will technically produce about 18% less power over its peak power, which is about 95bhp.

Higher torque at low RPM's make the car feel more drivable(stress free) and less powerful. I dont know how many times in a day do every one take their car to 6500RPM before shifting up(may once in a month?). The top speed will be better on the City but in which part of the country is the roads safe about 80 kmph. The unrealistically high safe speed would be 140 kmph here, which the SX4 can certainly do.

Finally the City's engine will be far more refined thanks to Honda design but SX4's engine is pretty smooth too(esp once it runs 20k kms).

Last edited by arunmur : 27th October 2009 at 21:03.
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Old 27th October 2009, 23:19   #98
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Originally Posted by arunmur View Post
I simply dont agree.

VVT's basically reduce the air flow into the engine at low RPM by closing the intake valve early(about BDC time). This introduces higher tumble in the combustion chamber basically delaying the flame travel and this increasing the low end torque. The old engines used to have very low lift with early closures to do this.

But as time progress the BHP(like our 104 vs 115 bhp) wars have forced the manufacturers to up the power which means the engine has to breath more air and the simplest way of doing it is to increase lift and increase timing. This has reduced the availability of low end torque. For example the old 800(35 bhp one) used to produce its peak torque around 3500rpm but the MPFI(45 bhp one) used to produce its peak torque around 4500 rpm.


Now the VVT's enhance high end power too(a bit) by delaying the intake valve closure. This means you get some what best of both worlds. In fact the computer controlled variants of the VVT can increase the air flow by about 10%(above certain RPM) per stroke increasing the torque and power instantly, largely improving the feel of the car(what we all call sporty).

So what they have done with the SX4 is that they have bought in the VVT and reduced the valve lift by about 8%. This will enhance the FE of the car overall and be quite a bit more torquey at low RPMs. This also means that the engine will idle beautifully with shell petrol at 500 odd RPM(my biggest issue with the older engine).

At 5600 the City is about 82% of its power range and will technically produce about 18% less power over its peak power, which is about 95bhp.

Higher torque at low RPM's make the car feel more drivable(stress free) and less powerful. I dont know how many times in a day do every one take their car to 6500RPM before shifting up(may once in a month?). The top speed will be better on the City but in which part of the country is the roads safe about 80 kmph. The unrealistically high safe speed would be 140 kmph here, which the SX4 can certainly do.

Finally the City's engine will be far more refined thanks to Honda design but SX4's engine is pretty smooth too(esp once it runs 20k kms).
Engine maybe more torque, smooth etc, but SX4 engine is really boomy at high revvs and it almost forces you to upshift. Which is not cured by a vtec head unfortunately.
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Old 27th October 2009, 23:44   #99
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Engine maybe more torque, smooth etc, but SX4 engine is really boomy at high revvs and it almost forces you to upshift. Which is not cured by a vtec head unfortunately.
Thats true. Never said no to that. Honda's have the quietest engine buy far. Thats one of my wish list that Maruti has to work on for SX4. But its nothing to do with the engine itself. It only their intake and exhaust designs that make it sound like that. So its not like its a sign of quickly wearing engine or bad design.

Also its not as noisy when you cruise(upto 120). Its only in city conditions that you will notice the noise.
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Old 28th October 2009, 00:10   #100
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Default So how much of this is backwards installable on the old sx4?

I'd like to get the side handle and the USB port for sure

Does anyone know if i can basically park this at at a service centre and get them to install the USB connectivity?

Would be nice to get the backlit steering controls too but i guess that may require changing the entire steering

I am un-decided whether i like the new alloys or not though...
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Old 28th October 2009, 00:21   #101
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Originally Posted by randomgyan View Post
I'd like to get the side handle and the USB port for sure

Does anyone know if i can basically park this at at a service centre and get them to install the USB connectivity?

Would be nice to get the backlit steering controls too but i guess that may require changing the entire steering

I am un-decided whether i like the new alloys or not though...


Sorry couldn't get the term Side Handle ??
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Old 28th October 2009, 13:28   #102
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Sorry couldn't get the term Side Handle ??
"Assist grip" might be what was meant.
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Old 28th October 2009, 13:44   #103
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If you are asking for the "side handle" to be the wooden finish at the arm rest, then yes. It can be done at any Maruti service station or at any interior refurbish shop. No worries.

Souvik
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Old 28th October 2009, 14:06   #104
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Originally Posted by arunmur View Post
Finally the City's engine will be far more refined thanks to Honda design but
SX4's engine is pretty smooth too(esp once it runs 20k kms).
That was an interesting read. Thanks.

20K for a normal petrol car user is 18-24 months. Too long a period you are asking for the smoothness part.
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Old 28th October 2009, 14:20   #105
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I some how did it in 1 year. But if smooth enigne is the priority then SX4 does not have smooth edges any where.

Its a man .

Quote:
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That was an interesting read. Thanks.

20K for a normal petrol car user is 18-24 months. Too long a period you are asking for the smoothness part.
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