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Old 22nd November 2009, 19:06   #136
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Glad I read this thread. I was deciding between the Linea, SX4 and Fiesta and had almost taken a decision. Now reading this has caused me to postpone my plans a bit
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Old 22nd November 2009, 23:46   #137
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Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
In one way, this is an embarassment for FIAT.
It needs a turbo charger to catch up to a Honda's N.A. engine.
This comment actually surprised me as it came from a distinguished BHP'ian. Anyway:
There's the difference in the engine capacities although not that huge but yes 1.4 is smaller of the two. Secondly IMO what matters is tech' specs' and on-road performance. Now who's bothered if its naturally aspirated or turbocharged or TFSI'ed or IVTEC'ed or Multiair'ed, as long as it performs!

Last edited by firstguri : 22nd November 2009 at 23:48.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 08:53   #138
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Originally Posted by firstguri View Post
That's because of the tuning, all in the interests of FE. I guess Fiat now knows that even in performance models the FE shouldn't be that bad otherwise they'll not sell here.
not really. More Torque at less r.p.m means less down shifts in City=more mileage and also easier drive.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 11:29   #139
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The mileage is not determined by a single factor. The gear shifts have to be such that frequent shifting is prevented.
At the same time, the torque delivery in the segment should be uniform, it does not have to be the *peak* torque.

Honda has to use i-Vtec to get 115ps out of that 1.5 ltr engine! Bah, what n00bs.

I agree with firstguri on this. Doesn't matter how they deliver it, but if its more power... we are game. No embarrassment for anyone.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 12:10   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EssYouWe View Post
The mileage is not determined by a single factor. The gear shifts have to be such that frequent shifting is prevented.
At the same time, the torque delivery in the segment should be uniform, it does not have to be the *peak* torque.
agree - but you see we cant decide on the torque delivery because we don't know it yet. And you you would know very well that torque delivery cannot be uniform/linear for turbo engines.

Besides whats the point in detuning the TJet for FE? The whole idea of having a TJet is for performance!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EssYouWe View Post
Honda has to use i-Vtec to get 115ps out of that 1.5 ltr engine! Bah, what n00bs.
sorry you are wrong. its 118 ps or 115 bhp. But Tjet is more powerful, no doubt. Unless of course, they detune it like they did the MJD.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 12:39   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
In one way, this is an embarassment for FIAT.
It needs a turbo charger to catch up to a Honda's N.A. engine.
Why would this be an embarrassment. Using a turbocharger they are able to dole out 119BHP out of a 1.4L engine vs a 115BHP out a 1.5L iVtec engine by Honda. This simply means they are getting the best out of a 1.4L engine - Of-course in no way is Honda underpowered or something, but this is surely no embarrassment for Fiat.

Last edited by srikanths1 : 23rd November 2009 at 12:41.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 12:51   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
In one way, this is an embarassment for FIAT.
It needs a turbo charger to catch up to a Honda's N.A. engine.
I am eager to know what your comment would have been, if 1.4 T-Jet was from Honda, sir.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 13:07   #143
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Guys how much will do you think this car will cost on road?
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Old 23rd November 2009, 17:53   #144
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I never realized that turbocharging was embarassing.

Just imagine how embarassed the guys at Bugatti must be. They use 4 on their Veyron!
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Old 23rd November 2009, 20:23   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
In one way, this is an embarassment for FIAT.
It needs a turbo charger to catch up to a Honda's N.A. engine.
I dont see why everyone is jumping on nitrous' comment. We all know that installing a turbocharger is a no-fuss method of extracting substantially more power out of an engine. Its a much bigger challenge to maximize the power of a naturally aspirated engine. If you doubt that statement, read into the history and current status of Formula 1 (where turbos were banned in 1989 because they were a relatively easy way of producing more power).

Note that nitrous said "in one way, this is an embarassment". Essentially, you can compare NA engines to other NA engines. Putting in a turbo changes the game. Its like getting a head start in a race. So the point is that FIAT needed a head start just to reach the same (almost) power figure as a NA Honda engine of approximately the same capacity.

That said, kudos to Fiat for being the first manufacturer to launch a small / mid-size car with a turbocharged petrol engine. So far, AFAIK the smallest and cheapest turbo-charged petrol-engined car (stock) that has been sold in India has been the Octavia RS/Tpi. I really hope the 1.4 TJet finds its way into the Punto.

Last edited by theEnd : 23rd November 2009 at 20:24.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 20:58   #146
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If anyone cares, the same 1.4 turbo can pump out 150 bhp and is already available on bravo n linea. So its not correct to say that fiat has achieved nothing with the turbo.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 21:46   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theEnd View Post
We all know that installing a turbocharger is a no-fuss method of extracting substantially more power out of an engine. Its a much bigger challenge to maximize the power of a naturally aspirated engine. If you doubt that statement, read into the history and current status of Formula 1 (where turbos were banned in 1989 because they were a relatively easy way of producing more power).
Well, if there an easy way to produce more power why not? Unless there are essential problems with turbos. Probably turbo gurus can enlighten us if there are any problems inherent with turbos - engine life, reliability or any other aspects.

I know that the Octavia RS had reported inherent reliability issues with the Turbos.
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Old 23rd November 2009, 22:16   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
Probably turbo gurus can enlighten us if there are any problems inherent with turbos - engine life, reliability or any other aspects.
I am no turbo guru but I think it is a fairly wel known fact that turbos bring their own complexity and need more frequent/desciplined maintenance.
Other then the turbo charger itself, just look at the additonal parts like intercooler, blow-off valves, turbo manifold etc which can potentially go wrong. They also invlove higher compression and very high speed spinning parts.
Turbocharged engines need to idled for a while before shutting off.
So, if there is an option to choose either NA or Turbo for the same output, it should be NA IMHO.

Last edited by Guna : 23rd November 2009 at 22:19.
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Old 24th November 2009, 00:32   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
Besides whats the point in detuning the TJet for FE? The whole idea of having a TJet is for performance!
It's already detuned. Intrernational specs read 120 bhp, Indian specs read 118 bhp. But could be to cater for the fuel quality here. But I still think that Fiat would definetly try and bump up the FE figures here by as much as feasible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EssYouWe View Post
I agree with firstguri on this. Doesn't matter how they deliver it, but if its more power... we are game. No embarrassment for anyone.
Thanks, you're my man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitg79 View Post
I never realized that turbocharging was embarassing.

Just imagine how embarassed the guys at Bugatti must be. They use 4 on their Veyron!
, thats the best one on this forum that I've seen as yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
If anyone cares, the same 1.4 turbo can pump out 150 bhp and is already available on bravo n linea. So its not correct to say that fiat has achieved nothing with the turbo.
That was going to be the main point of this post of mine. So thanks for taking care of it. And its 152 bhp to be precise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theEnd View Post

Note that nitrous said "in one way, this is an embarassment". Essentially, you can compare NA engines to other NA engines. Putting in a turbo changes the game. Its like getting a head start in a race. So the point is that FIAT needed a head start just to reach the same (almost) power figure as a NA Honda engine of approximately the same capacity.
"in one way" you're missing the whole point. First of all ANHC's engine and Linea's engine are not in their maximum state of tune. They'll be capable of making a lot more so we can never know whose engine can make more absolute power. Secondly the three things that manufacturers primarily design their engines around are- power, FE & emissions. Now its upto the maker what configuration and setup they choose to reach their targets. Some might go with a large naturally aspirated engines while others may choose smaller turbocharged engines and someone else may go with any other hi-fi tech'. So as long as the product is competent with others in its segment, who gives a heck about engine size? The thing that matters (if at all) is engineering finesse and depth. VW has 1.2 TSI that makes 103 bhp! They do it by using a supercharger, a turbocharger and direct injection. So what would you say- that it's a shame that VW has to use such a lot of tech' for its engine to be competent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
Well, if there an easy way to produce more power why not? Unless there are essential problems with turbos. Probably turbo gurus can enlighten us if there are any problems inherent with turbos - engine life, reliability or any other aspects.

I know that the Octavia RS had reported inherent reliability issues with the Turbos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
I am no turbo guru but I think it is a fairly wel known fact that turbos bring their own complexity and need more frequent/desciplined maintenance.
Other then the turbo charger itself, just look at the additonal parts like intercooler, blow-off valves, turbo manifold etc which can potentially go wrong. They also invlove higher compression and very high speed spinning parts.

Well I'm the engineer so I'll clear this out. The basics first- T/C's are basically two fans connected by a shaft. One fan is driven by the exhaust gases (called turbine) and this rotates the other fan (called blower). The blower forces in more scavenge (fresh) air into the engine. More air -> more oxygen -> more complete combustion -> more power and better efficiency. So the exhaust gases that anyway go out are made to do some work. And no other power is being used for this extra scavenge air that is being forced inside. So T/C's only add to the engine's efficiency and are not some fancy over-hyped equipment. Yes you do need to fit in other things along with it and it needs maintenance but after all it's increasing the efficiency of the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Turbocharged engines need to idled for a while before shutting off.
This holds true for all engines.

Last edited by firstguri : 24th November 2009 at 00:35. Reason: There were three smileys, so had to delete one.
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Old 24th November 2009, 01:12   #150
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And I forgot one more thing- embarrassement- the word in question. How many of you know that Honda is using a technology that Fiat actually invented? Yes I'm talking about variable valve timing- used first by Fiat. And after all this can one think of it as an embarrassement for Fiat considering that Honda is using VVT in its engines to bump up its performance!

Last edited by firstguri : 24th November 2009 at 01:13.
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