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Old 5th November 2009, 16:37   #76
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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
You are drawing a straw man here. Please point out where I said "mr X should by Y car by Z brand and not a Maruti". I hope that you can logically distinguish between my stand, and your warped interpretation of the same.
lol, what was the suggestion to buy autorickshaw then?

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Fiat: The palio was launched in 2001, received a facelift, got revamped a couple of years back, and there are speculations that a new one is on the horizon. You may argue that these were for entirely different reasons. Check out the Linea and Grande Punto. They have cut costs, but they have packed the cars with up to date technology (Blue and me).
See, now we all know. Thanks
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Old 5th November 2009, 16:55   #77
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Default Maruti Suzuki

I think this is now turning out into a Suzuki bashing thread. It would be more constructive if we try to get to the bottom of the matter.


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Firstly, globally where does Suzuki stand?
Suzuki sells large volumes of small cars which makes it the 9th largest car manufacturer in the world. (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...automaker.html) However, this number is misleading. An automobile manufacturerís true strength comes from its financial position. The image here depicts the Fortune 500 (Automobile and Parts) companies for the year 2009 (partial). Kindly refer this thread for details starting from 2005-2009 (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...05-2009-a.html (Global Automobile & Parts Companies in Fortune 500 list: 2005 - 2009)).

Revenue wise, Suzuki is in 19th position with revenues of about 30,000M$, Global 500 ranks of 290, profit of 272M$ and an annual loss of 61% (compared to 2007).

This makes it clear that, globally Suzuki is a very small player and canít be seen as a threat to any major manufacturer by any means.
  • Hyundai is over two times bigger than Suzuki (Revenue and Profits).
  • Toyota, VW, GM, Ford and Daimler are still mighty BIG. Lets not even try to compare Suzuki with these!
  • Fiat is about three times bigger than Suzuki and is fast approaching Honda! Also note the difference between Honda and Toyota.
  • Note: One thing to observe here is that Fiat achieves these figures with absolutely no presence in North America! With the takeover of Chrysler, things might be different!
  • GMís loses are more than Suzukiís entire Revenue!

It is very clear from the above that globally Suzuki is not a threat to pretty much any competitor above it.



Technology:
Where does Suzuki stand in terms of Technology and Innovation?

In over 100 years of existence, no company can survive without adapting to newer technologies. However, this does not necessarily mean that they need to be inventors / innovators as well. Suzuki believes more in evolution than innovation.
I really canít think of any major design / technology / innovation / style / awards (lets ignore the COTY in India) bagged by Suzuki. Theyíve never been revolutionaries in this field.
Even when they play the catch up game, it is never close the main players / inventors in this field. There is not a single technology by Suzuki which could be termed as the ďworldís bestĒ!


Portfolio:
This is one place where they take the biggest beating globally. They have a wide variety of micro mini cars which finds its applications in limited countries. These cars are not too different from each other and simple, light weight and fuel efficient. Safety is not the primary strength (800, Van, Alto, Zen, Estilo, Wagon R, Esteem etc). The entire range of cars feels flimsy when compared to the American, European and even Korean competition.
Their engine line-up is even more limited. They have a very limited range of small engines. If I am not wrong, then they donít have any beyond 3L!
Diesel engines / technology / license etc are obviously obtained from other manufacturers.
If one dares to compare Suzuki with Toyota / GM / Ford in this department, one would realize how insignificant and miniscule Suzukiís offerings are.


Race / Rally pedigree:
I am not sure about any Suzukiís presence in any form of Formula races. Its rally ambition began in 2007 and ended in 2008 with Swift and SX4 as their main cars. Throughout their participation, they were hampered by reliability issues. They failed to make any major impact in rally.


India:

The head start:
The major car manufacturers in India when Suzuki landed in India were HM and PAL. An economically closed India was left out of the car-globalization. Enter the 800. As GTO says, public perception and rumors almost entirely decide the fate of a car in India. I still remember (I was a kid then) listening to people:
A: ďI head there is a small new car coming!Ē
B: ďYeah! I heard it is more like use and throw car. It will be cheap but canít be repaired like my Ambassador!Ē


Reliability:
As days passed, Mr. B realized that, every Monday morning, his friendly mechanic would be summoned to start his Ambassador but that tiny little car of Mr. A is active like a kitten!!! Thus began a new chapter of Reliability in the history of Indian Cars!
Good roads or bad roads, they seldom broke! The poor Mr. B, his stranded Ambassador and a stranger mechanic (with greasy outfit and hands) repairing the Ambassador, would stare at this tiny little carís tiny little wheels negotiating bad roads!


Fuel Efficiency:
It later wrote another chapter in the history of Fuel Efficiency in India. The old generation 800 and van were too damn frugal compared to the competition. As the fuel prices began to rise, the competition in India simply didnít have the answer to these tiny little cars.


A.S.S:
Initially, authorized service centers were considered expensive and looked upon as a manufacturerís way to establish dependency!
Mr. B said: ďI should be able to repair my car in any garage anywhere!Ē
In the rare event of an issue, Mr. A always repaired at the authorized service centre. Complete peace of mind! The mechanics even wore uniforms!!!


Maruti 1000:
Mr. A and B: ďOMG! What a beauty?Ē Never before in the history of Indian cars, anybody had seen such a beautiful car! There was a mass hysteria! Several people booked the car even though they didnít have the dough! They were smart, since they sold these at a premium to other genuine buyers and made money.
Back in school, I remember drawing the red Maruti 1000 (as shown in the brochure) and showing it to my dad and saying why donít you buy this?
This car rocketed Marutiís image in everybodyís mind. This car stood for style and luxury. There was nothing in the market that offered competition. Rich people suddenly found a way to distinguish themselves from the rest (Amby, 800 and Van).


Bad Karma:
Rover Montego, Standard 2000, Opel, Daewoo and PAL all fell one by one. RIP. HM got desperate - MK 3, MK4, Nova, supernova, bla, bla. In all this chaos, Suzuki was the last man standing. PERIOD. Fiat, though initially showed some promise, faded away soon. Its actually a shame that a company like Fiat, with a formidable line-up of smash hit small cars in Europe, failed miserably in their first attempt in India.
Their second innings is a different ball game!


Rally in India:
Zen, Baleno, Esteem and Gypsy have all been the rally circuit stars in India. Suzuki never designed these cars with rally in mind! The reasons why these cars are used in the Indian rally scene are:
01. There was no alternative until Lancer, Cedia and Fiesta arrieved!
02. Rally breaks cars. Teams need spares in the remotest corner of India. Suzuki is the only answer.
03. Being light weight cars, this gives a massive performance advantage to these cars.
04. Small and simple engines could be easily tweaked for performance modifications.
05. These cars also handle extremely well.
Suzuki cars with rally pedigree are SX4 and Swift. However, these donít seem to be widely used in rally here.


New Competition:
Hyundai and Tata are the only two manufactures in India that offer Maruti some form of competition. The South Korean Auto giant, though globally much larger than Suzuki in every department, finds it difficult to even compete with Suzukiís generation old primitive cars!
Today, Hyundai and Tata have pretty much replaced their entire portfolio from their initial line up but they still are a distant second and third! The old generation tiny tin boxes continue to rule the Indian heart and mind!
Car to car comparison wise, there is not a single segment today where Suzuki beats the competition. The sales figures are contrary though and that obviously is the point of discussion.


Nano effect:
History would repeat itself if Tata can pull of what Maruti did with their 800. The Nana is the cheapest Tata model available and hence has reduced the entry barrier to own a Tata. Once the production issues are sorted out, Nano will hit its peak sales. This will build a brand perception in peopleís mind. If the Nano proves to be absolutely trouble free, then people will accept Tata as a major car player in India. People would then start aspiring for higher models from Tata and this way Tata could potentially become a serious threat to Maruti. Obviously, Tata also needs several good small hatches to match the Maruti portfolio.


VFM:
ďYou get what you pay forĒ is more like it! Swift P, Ritz, SX4 and GV are real VFM cars. Car to car, the Palio D is cheaper and more VFM than the Swift D.
The competition today offers much better cars with fantastic service (Hyundai) in every segment. The competition offers cars at a slightly higher price but that is understandable simply because, there is cost of innovation involved. A manufacturer invests millions of dollars into R&D to bring out advanced engines and other technologies. You canít expect that manufacturer to price their new cars on par with cars that are generations older!


Are they really better?
Clearly NO. The competition today offers better alternatives.


Are we compromising?
Yes we are. We still donít trust the other brands. Every time we buy an 800, van, Alto, Zen, Estillo, Wagon, A-Star, Versa etc we are making a compromise on the car for the sake of better Reliability and A.S.S.
Swift, Ritz, SX4 and GV are the only exceptions. However, barring GV, the competition today offers better or equally good cars in all segments.

Last edited by Dippy : 5th November 2009 at 17:54.
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Old 5th November 2009, 16:59   #78
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Please speak with figures, and sources. AFAIK, Maruti Suzuki is one of the most desirable career option. Unless ofcourse, you are talking about the dealers! (I completed my Automobile engineering last year. Dont think things changed drastically after that)
I am strictly talking of jobs on offer at IITs, RECs and other premium institutes. The last time I checked, the Tata Motors package was around 6L/annum. MSUL had just about 3 on offer.
I raised this issue because it is relevant to the topic. MSUL taking Indians for a ride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

And if i may ask- How would you rate your purchase decision? On all these factors? You didnt compromise on anything by buying a non-Maruti car?
1. New technology?
2. Build quality?
3. Safety features?
4. Performance?
5. After sales?
6. FE?
7. Resale value?
Leaving out design and ergonomics as they are highly subjective. Please let us know how perfect your purchase decision was, so that we can regret making this compromise!

Ergonomics is not subjective. Cramped = cramped, at least for the same species. And you totally left out factors like ride and handling.

I'll do a quick comparison;SX4 vs City:

1. New technology? City
2. Build quality? City
3. Safety features? SX4 = City
4. Performance? City
5. After sales? SX4
6. FE? I am not sure, but I guess both are about the same
7. Resale value? City

Add ergonomics, ride-handling and other parameters here. The City whoops the SX4.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Pathetic!
The only thing pathetic here is the parameters that some people look at while buying a car. Safety is secondary, comfort is secondary, stability is secondary, performance is secondary. All that matters is FE and apparent cost of ownership. If all one wants to do is be cheap, yes, buying an autorickshaw would suit his needs (and, I dare say; personality) .


@ Gansan

Quote:
It is a free market in the sense that all auto companies have a level playing field. Removal of duties etc is beyond the purview of this thread. Even if they are removed, it will help Suzuki as much as the others.
(1) I raised the free market issue as a reply to someone else.
(2) The definition of a free market does not change according to the limitations of a discussion. A free market is a free market is a free market.
(3)Removing duties will help other manufacturers a lot more than MSUL. Most of them have better technologies than suzuki outside the country, and they can import them without thinking of unwarranted costs.


Quote:
Again outside the purview of this thread, and applies equally to Hyundai too. When I myself am not exactly wallowing in money, I will only look at the price,cost of ownership and resale value first, everything (altruism included) else takes a back seat!
No. Paying your engineers less than the competition means that you are willing to settle for lesser engineering and lesser technology. As I pointed out earlier, even TATA pays more. This has nothing to do with altruism, but a company's intention to spend on technology and not rip their customers off by selling archaic cars.

Quote:
So what? Life itself is a compromise.
Yes, settle for less! Even when you have better alternatives. How profound.
Quote:
Let us take me for an example. If buying a 10 year old model (Alto) does not bother me, why should it bother anyone else?
Yes, everyone should look up to you as an example.

Quote:
Moreover, many buyers of Maruti cars are upgrading from two wheelers and will expect the same practicality and ease of maintenance from the car too.
Then be honest and admit that Maruti makes good two-wheeler replacements.


@AnonymousCoward
: If you have absolutely nothing to argue about, the least you can do is not make your one-line long self-righteous, condescending comments.

Last edited by e1t1bet : 5th November 2009 at 17:11.
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Old 5th November 2009, 17:16   #79
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@e1t1bet - You forgot the main thing here - 'AFFORDABILITY" All other things unfortunately become 'secondary' because a lot of the Indian car buyers cannot 'afford' it, it is simply beyond their 'budget'
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Old 5th November 2009, 17:22   #80
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Superb compilation by Sushanthr77. A debate normally has difference of opinion.
Most of the car buyers in India are first time buyers hence Maruti will still have the Market. Somebody told me when I booked Punto, that why book a car seen less on the roads? Its simple mass hysteria.
The second, third, fourth etc time buyer will defenitely buy cars from other manufactures.
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Old 5th November 2009, 17:31   #81
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Originally Posted by kannan666 View Post
@e1t1bet - You forgot the main thing here - 'AFFORDABILITY" All other things unfortunately become 'secondary' because a lot of the Indian car buyers cannot 'afford' it, it is simply beyond their 'budget'
I concur.
However, I must also add that the 800 and the Alto segment have little competition and there is a lack of choice. For a variety of reasons, including lack of choices and blind faith in Maruti, Maruti sees no incentive in innovating and is essentially selling below par products in the country. I sincerely hope that the full fledged launch of Nano and other small cars by Nissan et al changes the scenario.
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Old 5th November 2009, 17:38   #82
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Dear e1t1bet,
Yes, i agree, we as Indians compromise when buying a Maruti. But honestly, i think we compromise when buying most of the things. Since it is OT, i will not discuss about it here in this thread, but i guess, most of us agree. So, when Gansan says, Life is a compromise, it is true.

You have done a comparison on City against a SX4. I totally agree with you that City is a better car. Still, by buying a City, you would have to compromise on A.S.S part when compared to a Maruti. Don't we compromise on that and still buy a Honda. We do.

I personally think that what a person expects out of his car is totally his own. We cannot really comment on it by saying that if all a person wants is FE, he could buy a rickshaw. To each his own e1t1bet.

Maybe yes, Maruti's comfort levels are less compared to the competition. But the difference isn't like day and night. Same goes with most parameters that you've talked about viz. Stability, Performance, Technology....

Regarding safety, its difficult to comment. If we talk about this looking at 800 or Van or Alto, i am not sure if they could offer Air Bags and stuff for the price at which they are selling. Starting with A Star, they provide you with an option to get Air Bags. I have seen cars which were really well built, being totalled after an impact. But yes, Maruti can definitely improve in this aspect.

I din't mean to offend anybody here. Just wanted to share my thoughts.
Cheers Everybody,
Deepak
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Old 5th November 2009, 18:11   #83
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Originally Posted by starter View Post
Dear e1t1bet,
Yes, i agree, we as Indians compromise when buying a Maruti. But honestly, i think we compromise when buying most of the things. Since it is OT, i will not discuss about it here in this thread, but i guess, most of us agree. So, when Gansan says, Life is a compromise, it is true.

You have done a comparison on City against a SX4. I totally agree with you that City is a better car. Still, by buying a City, you would have to compromise on A.S.S part when compared to a Maruti. Don't we compromise on that and still buy a Honda. We do.

I personally think that what a person expects out of his car is totally his own. We cannot really comment on it by saying that if all a person wants is FE, he could buy a rickshaw. To each his own e1t1bet.

Maybe yes, Maruti's comfort levels are less compared to the competition. But the difference isn't like day and night. Same goes with most parameters that you've talked about viz. Stability, Performance, Technology....

Regarding safety, its difficult to comment. If we talk about this looking at 800 or Van or Alto, i am not sure if they could offer Air Bags and stuff for the price at which they are selling. Starting with A Star, they provide you with an option to get Air Bags. I have seen cars which were really well built, being totalled after an impact. But yes, Maruti can definitely improve in this aspect.

I din't mean to offend anybody here. Just wanted to share my thoughts.
Cheers Everybody,
Deepak

I don't mean to offend you here, but you are essentially equivocating. It is easy to be nice, and modest and condone what Maruti is doing.
As far as I am concerned, if I feel that a manufacturer is ripping people off, I will speak my mind. Besides, isn't that the entire point behind team-bhp. People being candid and honest?
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Old 5th November 2009, 18:24   #84
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e1t1bet: Please tell us what maruti is doing?? It will be an eye opener for us.
What kind of ripping is going on?? Do you own any of the maruti products currently (or owned previously)?? I just want to know why you are so hurt by the car manufacturer?? Have they cheated you?? If so please mention. We are with you.


Let this thread be clean and educative.
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Old 5th November 2009, 19:10   #85
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@mnhegde:
Quote:
What kind of ripping is going on??
I have answered that before. If you want more instances, here is another; selling the A-Star Vxi at ~ Rs. 3,80,000, if that isn't ripping off then what is?
Almost every maruti car, is under-spec'ed, compared to competition.
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Old 5th November 2009, 19:23   #86
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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
I don't mean to offend you here, but you are essentially equivocating. It is easy to be nice, and modest and condone what Maruti is doing.
As far as I am concerned, if I feel that a manufacturer is ripping people off, I will speak my mind. Besides, isn't that the entire point behind team-bhp. People being candid and honest?
Dear e1t1bet,
I am equivocating because that is what is reality. With every car, there are certain positives and there are definitely some negatives and this is totally subjective. This very reason makes me not reject your personal view about Maruti. But, generalizing this statement isn't correct is my opinion.

I understand that you are speaking your mind and yes, you are absolutely free to express your view on team-bhp. I respect your opinion.
Cheers,
Deepak
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Old 5th November 2009, 19:51   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
(1) If all that someone wants in a car are FE and Cost of Ownership, why not simply get a two wheeler or an auto-rickshaw?
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post

If all one wants to do is be cheap, yes, buying an autorickshaw would suit his needs (and, I dare say; personality) .

@ Gansan
Yes, everyone should look up to you as an example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
As far as I am concerned, if I feel that a manufacturer is ripping people off, I will speak my mind. Besides, isn't that the entire point behind team-bhp. People being candid and honest?
My friend, speaking your mind is one thing, that is what a forum is for. But passing unwanted comments is another. Ever heard the adage "your freedom stops where my nostril begins"?

I never expect anyone to look up to me as an example! May be they should rather emulate you, have an attitude, become judgemental and smirk about others' choices!
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Old 5th November 2009, 20:03   #88
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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
@mnhegde:

I have answered that before. If you want more instances, here is another; selling the A-Star Vxi at ~ Rs. 3,80,000, if that isn't ripping off then what is?
Almost every maruti car, is under-spec'ed, compared to competition.
If you think thats ripping off, then don't buy it. Simple no? Maruti is not forcing it down people's throat, right?

And please watch your tone. We forum members are like a family. Questioning personality and criticizing owners of a car of particular brand is unwarranted and totally un-acceptable.

Last edited by DCEite : 5th November 2009 at 20:19.
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Old 5th November 2009, 20:24   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post

If all one wants to do is be cheap, yes, buying an autorickshaw would suit his needs (and, I dare say; personality) .
Please refrain from making comments like this on the forum.
My dad owns the cheapest car which maruti has/had on offer (2001 M800 STD), and I find no reason to criticize him. He does not believe in flaunting, and found no reason (other than flaunt value) to own anything higher than M800 for his 17-18 km daily commute through semi crowded streets to/from office - which the car has stood upto, with minimal service, for 8 years now.
Hope you understand that being firm and critical does not necessarily mean being rude and aggressive.
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Old 5th November 2009, 20:25   #90
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Note - I am a Maruti owner, Mahindra Owner, TATA Owner. So I am as unbiased as it can get.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a similar note, Is Toyota poised to rule Indian Auto scene in the next 15 years? Or Hyundai?

Consider many factors.

1) Maruti is poised to loose the market share to Hyundai at the current rate. Indians are fast coming to reality with small Vs BIG car. Accept it, Maruti are real small cars and Competition is fast catching up. For same or slightly more Rs you get a santro class car which is far better than a maruti.

2) After 11 years in India, Hyundai are more Indian than Korean. As of today they infact have a total of 11 + (Maruti's 25Yrs) = ~35 yrs of Experience. Thats what a good business model does. Continuous Learning.

3) TOYOTA......!!!!!!!!! Look what they managed with the Fortuner. Dont tell me all the 5000~ customers earned 18L Rs overnight the Fort' was launched. They just didnt want to spend it on Pajero's and Montero's and likes.

At this rate, if only Toyota can just show some interest to make a tiny santro-wagon-R Class car and put a 'T' on it and of course keep it ~3.5-4.0 L's it would fly off the shelves. They are BIG, patient (boring slow) when it comes to market decisions. They are FAST increasing their sales/service network. I am sure they were taken by surprise by the fort's initial #s.

Hope they capitalize on it.
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