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Old 6th November 2009, 15:00   #121
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Originally Posted by Ajay_J View Post
Apart from point 4, and 7 you thought Indica turbo was better than swift diesel. Are you kidding ?
Come on GH, you are getting overboard with MSIL bashing now.
I Completely agree with Ajay... how can you even think these points apart from 4 & 7 .. I mean i read these points atleast 10 times trying to figure out how could indica be better than swift in these points...
My personal opinion is that Tatas are better making buses and Trucks.. they are trying and going better year after year... but still hv a long way to go...
As far as MSIL, these guys are doing better than any counterpart majorly because they are giving great cars at affordable prices... Their After sales support is the best in India and resale is absolutely awesome...
I think we are not compromising on anything on buying a Maruti.. these guys are good..
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Old 6th November 2009, 15:09   #122
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Originally Posted by samsan02 View Post
May be he choose Ian ndica because of 4 & 7, which is high priority for him. What is Swift some Gods vehicle that you have to wait for so long. Come on.

And its just your opinion who thinks Swift outscores in the rest of them, so keep it to yourself, like he felt for Indica.
Come on Samsan dont be so rude... lets have a healthy discussion buddy...
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Old 6th November 2009, 15:14   #123
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Default Had we Options ??

I think we Indians never had any options before.

Right now we r in a transition period. If more people are still purchasing suzuki, its just because of their MASS and old momentum towards suzuki products.

Other manufactures (Hyundai, TATA) are surely reaching up. Soon we will have their after sales matching with suzuki.

No one is fool to purchase suzuki. Its just the circumstances. And lets not think, the ones who dont purchase are the smarter ones. Lets respect each decision.

If at all I want to blame anyone, it should be the previous socialist mentality of our politicians, who kept the markets closed; which allowed suzuki to gain headstart in 90s. In other countries (US, Europe and Japan) competition and optimisation has reached to such an extent that suzuki (or others) cant make any compromises there.

Indians at large are still learning more about cars.

If suzuki doesnt wake up in time, its going to be washed out soon. They are surely trying, in form of SX4 and Kizashi. Best of luck to them.
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Old 6th November 2009, 15:26   #124
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Ok I am sorry if any one felt if that earlier post was rude.

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Originally Posted by anoopap View Post
Its just the circumstances. And lets not think, the ones who dont purchase are the smarter ones. Lets respect each decision.
Exactly, its just the circumstances. I hope to see that it would change someday if not soon.
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Old 6th November 2009, 16:10   #125
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In less than 48 hrs this topic has over 120 responses and 3500 plus views.
Credible isnít it!
Finally proves unprovoked bashing always hurts.
It hurts maruti / Suzuki owners.
Wonder what was going into their minds (for those who had criticized their competitors like Tata, Fiat & Skoda in particular) when they used the same tonic.
Lets consider the positives what Suzuki has bought to Indian buyers who have gained from creative strategy adopted by Suzuki , which could be replicated to certain extent by Hyundai.
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Old 6th November 2009, 16:30   #126
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Originally Posted by flyingspur View Post
My first statement says that the Swift can hardly be called a compromise as an overal product. In regards of build quality, it sure is. And I suitably assume that neither you nor I are shallow enough to jump to conclusions based on our perception of how thick sheet metal is.
Exactly, and this thread is full of statements like Safety is an issue in Maruti cars.

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Originally Posted by Fabiaous View Post
Safety is a big compromise,
If there is a head on collison betwen Palio / Punto with Sx4 , I wonder what state will Sx4 be.
Even if a Goat comes and hits a swift there are big dents , forget the bull / cow on highway.
Most of cars from Suzuki stable are best cars to drive in city with great VFM
SX4 has 4/5 star rating at ENCAP. Palio has no rating. For that matter even Indica Vista, Indigo Manza, Innova are not tested at ENCAP. Punto has 5/5 rating, i20 has 5/5.
Civic has 4/5.
So if SX4 is a safety compromise, so even Civic is a safety compromise, isn't it ? Both of them are not very different as far weights go, so we can safely assume that if a Civic crashes into Punto, the state of Civic will also be bad.

Or one step ahead, Laura and Octavia ( both A5 and A4 ) have 4/5 rating, so when Laura crashes into Punto, the state of Laura will be bad.

Here I want to ask what is the definition of build quality In Your Opinion.

For me : I divide it into two:

1) Chassis stiffness, suspension durability, braking
2) Interior fit and finish.

Now some views:

OHC/G1HC never went in for ENCAP test. But the interior fit and finish was quite good, interiors were durable.
So can we conclude that OHC/G1HC is has fantastic build quality and so is safer than Swift and SX4 and Ritz ?

Swift has scored 4/5 stars at ENCAP. There are complains about rattles, but the chassis is stiff. Does this mean that Swift is unsafe and even a rattle free Nano/Santro is safer than Swift ?

My point is, before stating that build quality is bad, please understand that chassis stiffness and safety and interior fit and finish are different things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by samsan02 View Post
a) Have you wondered, An Alto Lxi is a bare minimum car, But there is no left ORVM there, only one right one. Now what is that, even bikes have both left and right ORVM. Thats a basic necessity to drive a car safely isn't it. That should be standard on every car right, forget cars cycles have them these days. Isn't it a compromise on safety forget even airbags/ABS here. How much would that ORVM add to the cost when some one is ready to shell out couple of lakhs for an Alto.


) Look at a European Swift and a Indian Swift, dont indian's deserve the european one yet. Japanese made SX4 costs $15K in the US thats about 6.8L INR, Indian made SX4 sells for how much we all know. But do we get the same build quality, interiors ? Atleast Hyundai has started selling the same export quality i10/i20 here as well.
a) Some bikes offer rear disc brakes too. Are they offered in all Fiat, Hyundai, toyota cars ? Verna is now not available with rear disc brakes. Pulsar220 is. So Verna is a compromise as per your standards, right ?
Alto is not offering left OVRM because its obviously a cost cutting measure. This is for affordability. India is different. What is necessacity in developed markets, is a luxury in India thanks to adaptation of British rules for our system even after independence. So not everyone can afford a good safe 5/5 ENCAP, ABS+EBD, ESP, 6-8 airbags loaded car. Affordability is one reason why Nano is here.

Alto is based on Wagon R platform, so before commenting on Alto's safety, also do mention passive or active safety. This same car's platform was utilized for MR Wagon ( Estilo ) and was sold as Nissan Moco for Japan. The same platform cars were sold to even Subaru and many other manufacturers under badge engineering. So its much stiffer than M800 its compared with.

And before calling Maruti a safety compromise, remember that Maruti was the first one to offer passive safety equipment like Airbags in WagonR/Santro segment. SX4 came with safety equipments that made Honda offer the same for City. City at that time did not even come with ABS where as Swift was available with the same.

Next, about Santro. This car was never tested at ENCAP, and Atoz that was tested was not base for India santro. Santro was later modified to Xing as the earlier Santro did not even meet minimum requirement for safety in developed markets.
Still we call santro and even Santro Xing a safer option than Suzuki cars.

b) Its down to taxation systems. As I mentioned earlier, our system is based on British system that was created when we were slaves. This never changed and we have adopted the same here.

Base Verna is 6,33,250 ( $12665 @ 50rs/$ ) in US. What is the cost here ?

The major difference is due to taxation in India.


I think this is nothing but a Suzuki bashing thread as the points raised specially for safety are biased and without any sort of proof. IMO, the understanding for difference between chassis and skin panels is not there.

More specific points would be good for this thread rather than the generalized use of words like build quality, safety compromise, etc.
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Old 6th November 2009, 16:40   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Exactly, and this thread is full of statements like Safety is an issue in Maruti cars.


SX4 has 4/5 star rating at ENCAP. Palio has no rating. For that matter even Indica Vista, Indigo Manza, Innova are not tested at ENCAP. Punto has 5/5 rating, i20 has 5/5.
Civic has 4/5.
So if SX4 is a safety compromise, so even Civic is a safety compromise, isn't it ? Both of them are not very different as far weights go, so we can safely assume that if a Civic crashes into Punto, the state of Civic will also be bad.
ENCAP ratings have gone a sea change,
Couple of years ago those rated 4 stars are now capable of getting rated 5 stars due to changes done within Encap as they have changed certain parameters of rating.

So come what may security is a compromise which is a fact as far as Suzuki goes.
Various accidents in city in India involving Suzuki cars is a pointer.
I have seen a accident where Omni crashed into Indica , the Indica speed away in 10 mins , It took 3 hours to get the driver out of Omni

In general Suzuki in terms of Safety is notches lower to honda & Toyota forget the European cars.
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Old 6th November 2009, 17:03   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Some bikes offer rear disc brakes too. Are they offered in all Fiat, Hyundai, toyota cars ? Verna is now not available with rear disc brakes. Pulsar220 is. So Verna is a compromise as per your standards, right ?
Alto is not offering left OVRM because its obviously a cost cutting measure. This is for affordability. India is different. What is necessacity in developed markets, is a luxury in India thanks to adaptation of British rules for our system even after independence.
Dear aaggoswami,
What you said is mostly agreeable but dont justify the above statement (in italics) just for the sake of taking side of Maruti. You will look Stupid.
Having a left ORVM on an Alto is a luxury and India is different for that matter, and its a necessity in developed markets and not in india. And i wonder how much will it add to the overall cost. Or may be During sales The salesman will come running and say this " Sir We have a nice Diwali offer sir, we are giving free Left ORVM if you book by this date"


Any car manufacturer who cuts costs with such cheap tactics is pathetic not just Maruti.

Verna, whats with verna its sure is a safety compromise when even in the top end you don't get Airbags with the price you pay. (That was when I last checked in Aug 2009) And FYI Verna is a Hyundai not Maruti, so don't just blindly support Maruti just for the sake of it or if you happen to own one.

Last edited by samsan02 : 6th November 2009 at 17:18.
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Old 6th November 2009, 17:15   #129
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The right side RVM is mandatory. If it was not, even that may not be offered. This is true even for bikes. Many are used to drive using only the right and centre RVMs and those who want it get it installed at the time of delivery. It is not a big issue.
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Old 6th November 2009, 17:19   #130
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aaggoswami, I think one point is the availablity of ABS/Airbags versions. Its hard enough taking delivery of regular swift/dzires. A colleague who wanted to order a Dzire ZDi ABS+ airbags ( he was a regular tbhp reader and was well aware of their benefits) was hit with a min. 9 month waiting period(after checking with the three dealerships in town - I know that there are some of you who can get hold of one sooner, but this is what the average Indian buyer has to put up with) . He had to compromise and go for a vanilla LDi version which he got in 2 months ( and this was with all the strings he could pull - and got a colour he did not want, and a trim level he did not want).Maruti has no issues putting abs/airbags on export spec models, and yet it give Indians the short end of the stick.

This would not have happened , say, in the case of a linea or a manza or an i20 (which I tried hard to get him to buy - even he wanted to, but got vetoed by his dad who wanted only maruti, and didnt see any use for ABS/Airbags etc, no matter how hard he tried to enlighten him, - the maruti sales dude didn't help either)

Did My colleague Compromise on safety because he was buying a maruti blindly? Yes!
Did My colleague compromise on The car he wanted because he was buying a maruti? Yes!

If this is not a clear case of an indian compromising by 'buying maruti', I dont know what is.

Last edited by greenhorn : 6th November 2009 at 17:26.
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Old 6th November 2009, 17:26   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
The right side RVM is mandatory. If it was not, even that may not be offered. This is true even for bikes. Many are used to drive using only the right and centre RVMs and those who want it get it installed at the time of delivery. It is not a big issue.
There you go, one more justification about ORVM. Do you know how many blind spots a car has and which all sides it has. And still after having all 3(2 ORVMS & 1RVM) how much of the blind spots still gets left out.

Comparing driving a bike with a car, So now you would say then there should be no ORVMS in convertibles right ! Aaaaah ! Never mind, not your fault.
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Old 6th November 2009, 17:35   #132
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Samsan: What is your point?? What are you trying to prove?? Please be clear. If you hate Suzuki so be it. But why are you arguing each and every point?? Just for the sake of ARGUING??

Last edited by mnhegde : 6th November 2009 at 17:37.
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Old 6th November 2009, 17:40   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsan02 View Post
There you go, one more justification about ORVM. Do you know how many blind spots a car has and which all sides it has. And still after having all 3(2 ORVMS & 1RVM) how much of the blind spots still gets left out.

Comparing driving a bike with a car, So now you would say then there should be no ORVMS in convertibles right ! Aaaaah ! Never mind, not your fault.
I know about blind spots ,my friend, I have been driving for donkey's years! And they exist for bikes too. Whether I am driving my car or riding my bike, I have a look at all my RVMs and also glance over my shoulder before turning/changing lanes. That is a different matter.

What I am saying is mfrs tend to give you just what is mandatory in all versions. Anything more, even an extra RVM, will come only in the "deluxe" versions! Pay Rs 200 and get it installed while taking delivery, not a big deal!
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Old 6th November 2009, 17:40   #134
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greenhorn, bang on.

Even though Suzuki is giving wheels to the budget buyer, why are they making safety a luxury? It's just unethical, and any company following suit should be called the same.
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Old 6th November 2009, 17:48   #135
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actually, I'm even fine with them making it a luxury. All Indian manufacturers are no different. But the fact that they are limiting supply, and whats worse, the dealers using this to dictate terms to customers is what irks me.
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