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Old 28th February 2012, 13:01   #271
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Default Re: Are these cars worth it?

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Originally Posted by Crank View Post
Come on guys! Why this thread is going backwards? We have discussed this several times in length and breadth in this same thread. It's not the taxation. Its sheer greed!

If you read this thread from post #190 (Are Indians being ripped off ?) through post #195, it summarizes almost all the questions asked by ganeshram. My post just above that - post #241 (Are Indians being ripped off ?) summarizes my view.
When we compare the car prices outside of india, it does seem to indicate sheer greed of the auto companies in India but i must add couple of points to consider before making conclusions.

1) Cars assembled in India still import a lot of components &parts which contribute to higher costs due to Transport (Air/Shipping) and of course tax
2) The cost of the car also includes the cost of development and initial setting-up cost which is split against the expected volumes - since volumes are less, the percentage of devepolment cost in higher (like the XUV for example) in all our cars
3) The million dollor question however is while therotically pricing it lower should result in higher sales, it could also end up re-juggling the numbers across the segments. So a customer buying a Swift could buy the honda city, someone buying the honda City the Civic & so on. But in the end the total sales togeather will only again indicate that our market is still in nascent stage.
4) Finally assuming that all companies are ripping us, why does it not show in thier balance sheet? We dont see indian car makers like TATA, M&M etc having extrordiany profits (thier profits are as comparable to other companies) which indicates that cost of products sold are not over priced as it seems

However in the end of the day as a consumer, when i saw huge SUV, muscle cars and luxury cars as the most common vehicles in (forget developed companie like USA,UK) Dubai, Srilanka () owned by common folks we do of course feel short changed. Hopefully it changes in years to come.
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Old 28th February 2012, 13:27   #272
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Default Re: Are these cars worth it?

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1) Cars assembled in India still import a lot of components &parts which contribute to higher costs due to Transport (Air/Shipping) and of course tax
To my knowledge this is true for many European and American cars.

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Originally Posted by urajkumar View Post
2) The cost of the car also includes the cost of development and initial setting-up cost which is split against the expected volumes - since volumes are less, the percentage of devepolment cost in higher (like the XUV for example) in all our cars
An existing car in the market like Corolla has very less development cost. If you are talking about setting up the plant in India, I cannot accept that argument. Will you price your product high just because you are the new kid on the block? It should be the opposite, I would say. Even if he is a global player and is trying to step into Indian Market, they should price it sensibly for the market. Above all, with all the tax and several other concessions provided by the Central and State Governments for the SEZs, the lower labour cost, lower land prices, lower raw material cost, the initial setup cost should be really less. But what we see here is, these giants are trying to make up their losses in the western economies, by ripping us off. When western economies were doing good, Toyota didn't even think about stepping into India.

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3) The million dollor question however is while therotically pricing it lower should result in higher sales, it could also end up re-juggling the numbers across the segments. So a customer buying a Swift could buy the honda city, someone buying the honda City the Civic & so on. But in the end the total sales togeather will only again indicate that our market is still in nascent stage.
Frankly speaking, I wouldn't mind. Honda should price City at 6.5L and Civic at 10L at the most. When lot of commodities fall in price, why not Cars? I was not able to buy a Dell laptop for less than 80K once. But now I pay as low as 30K for the same kind. A smartphone was a distant dream with prices lingering around 30K. Now we get it for as low as 15K.

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4) Finally assuming that all companies are ripping us, why does it not show in thier balance sheet? We dont see indian car makers like TATA, M&M etc having extrordiany profits (thier profits are as comparable to other companies) which indicates that cost of products sold are not over priced as it seems
Simple. TATA's Indica is a good example. It's reasonably priced and certainly shows in numbers. But at the same time, I personally don't like it as the build quality is not up to mark and I know its true for many other buyers. XUV commands respect and is certainly a good move towards this. I see a positive trend and negativity should be short lived. My only gripe is that the Indian government had given our home market so many years to wake up to the global dream, but they just sat as lame duck. And now when the global players are let in they have very less time to compete against them.

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However in the end of the day as a consumer, when i saw huge SUV, muscle cars and luxury cars as the most common vehicles in (forget developed companie like USA,UK) Dubai, Srilanka () owned by common folks we do of course feel short changed. Hopefully it changes in years to come.
Exactly my point. I don't want just the richie rich to buy a Corolla and flaunt it, as if it is a luxury car. A true luxury car is the one that is globally considered as luxury and I would certainly pay a premium for that.

Last edited by Crank : 28th February 2012 at 13:32.
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Old 28th February 2012, 18:09   #273
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Default Re: Are Indians being ripped off ?

A car-for-car comparison with the likes of the mighty Audi's and BMWs might settle this issue as these cars are expected to be expensive and thus call for lower attention to cost cutting details. I've always wondered about this issue myself.

Since the post has compared two continents to begin with, I have always thought about this issue in the following manner:

1) Say, you compare the same car in India and the EU, you have got to compare the currency likewise. This will make you better understand why some cars in the same segment carry more equipment there and less here. GBP has easily more weight than INR. This reflects the purchasing power and the capacity of manufacturers to include equipment in certain configurations they couldn't be able to. I compared Hyundai i10 specs for the one I got here with those available in the UK. What is the Indian customer interested in other than FE, price. Factor that in with the currency weight in respective countries and you could begin to see why like-for-like cars in different countries have different equipment levels.

Imagine there are 6 models for cars in our country, and based on whether you want a rear view mirror on one side or not the model changes. That's the difference between INR and GBP. Fundamentally their currency is about 70 times heavier so if tata exports the NANO there, he can very well afford to keep more equipment.

Oh, and I say this after spending 4.5 years in the UK. I am no expert but I do have an idea about how the population thinks and lives

2) Of course, the other argument is that makers here are cheap and want max. profits. But that's the argument of 99% others.
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Old 29th February 2012, 01:24   #274
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Default Re: Are Indians being ripped off ?

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
My thoughts exactly. We can't discount the cost of the new car. Look at what you're spending upfront to save money at the pump.

The reason the Optra is so cheap is that nobody buys it. I would be worried about spares and parts if one keeps it for 4-5 years.
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Originally Posted by ganeshram View Post
Thanks mate!

Booked mine on Saturday from Kropex. Excellent service. Same price, same goodies.
Sorry to contradict myself! Had an extremely nasty experience and ended up cancelling my booking of my Optra. The guys in Kropex were eager to increase their booking nos for this month. So pushed me to the max possible extent to pay the down payment. They even told me that SBI approved my loan in a day without even doing any verification. Am pissed off. This is my fourth car purchase. And unfortunately for them I know how car loan process works, especially in state banks.

The brain vs heart game always puts us in a soup. Optra was the brain's choice. And the heart said you are doing something wrong. And it proved right. Tomorrow I am booking a new car. I am pissed off with myself for having written on this forum about booking a car(First the Fluence, then the Optra), that I do not want to disclose anything. The day I get my new car, I will start a new thread and I welcome all of you to post your feelings on the same.

Thanks a lot T BHP, thanks a lot fellow T BHPians!
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Old 29th February 2012, 01:53   #275
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Default Re: Are Indians being ripped off ?

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Originally Posted by ankur_fox View Post
1) Say, you compare the same car in India and the EU, you have got to compare the currency likewise. This will make you better understand why some cars in the same segment carry more equipment there and less here. GBP has easily more weight than INR. This reflects the purchasing power and the capacity of manufacturers to include equipment in certain configurations they couldn't be able to. I compared Hyundai i10 specs for the one I got here with those available in the UK. What is the Indian customer interested in other than FE, price. Factor that in with the currency weight in respective countries and you could begin to see why like-for-like cars in different countries have different equipment levels.

Imagine there are 6 models for cars in our country, and based on whether you want a rear view mirror on one side or not the model changes. That's the difference between INR and GBP. Fundamentally their currency is about 70 times heavier so if tata exports the NANO there, he can very well afford to keep more equipment.
What is this thing about the GBP having more weight than the INR? Are you referring to the exchange rate? Well, we all know that the GBP = INR 70. So what? And having 6 variants/configurations/trims will cost more in any country?

Sorry, I am not able to understand the point you're trying to make.
All else being equal, a NANO should have the same equipment, if the conversion price in 2 currencies is similar.

Its really an insult and a discrimination to Indians when a company sells the same car with full safety specs overseas while not even making it an optional offering to their Indian customers.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:08   #276
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Default Re: Are Indians being ripped off ?

The comparison can be fair only we remove the taxes and do it. Also, when doing it country wise, we need to see if its imported in both countries or manufactured in both countries. Apart from that the volumes and positioning also play a role. So there are too many factors that needs to be taken into account. Its not a simple case of INR/X or USD*45.

What i dont understand is how new versions of the same model are placed in the "next higher " segment ( translated to higher pricing ) when they are just replacements at almost the same price in other matured markets. All manufacturers are guilty of that here. We have examples like Alto, Fiesta, Verna. Good that maruti didnt continue to sell the old swift side by side the new one.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:31   #277
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Default Re: Are Indians being ripped off ?

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Originally Posted by ankur_fox View Post
Imagine there are 6 models for cars in our country, and based on whether you want a rear view mirror on one side or not the model changes. That's the difference between INR and GBP. Fundamentally their currency is about 70 times heavier so if tata exports the NANO there, he can very well afford to keep more equipment.
Since 1 INR = 30 Italian Lira. Does that mean our currency is 30 times heavier than the Italian Currency? So we should get more features or whatever?
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Old 29th February 2012, 14:53   #278
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Default Re: Are Indians being ripped off ?

This is a sore point with most of us who value safety and proper equipment. The thing is that our companies run to the "white man's land" to earn those all important export dollars. They have to conform to those equipment standards and safety standards and the rules are fully enforced by the relevant authorities there. So we have no go but to comply if we want entry into those markets, albeit for a very low priced segment (in their terms.)

Suppose our government were also to enforce similar specifications, safety rules and so on, we would also get the same kind of specs here - however these will come at a cost. As of now, safety etc are considered luxuries and in a typical capitalistic profiteering kind of scenario, the car companies are simply making hay while the sun shines!

It is not wrong to make money. However it is completely wrong to overcharge for basic stuff. The lowest spec Marutis and Mahindras and Tatas for example are little more than tin boxes on wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine. Vehicles like our public transport buses, transport lorries, Jeeps, MUV's, taxi cabs etc seem to be constantly renewing their leases on life, when they should have been pulled off the roads a long time ago.

As our market evolves and develops into a more discerning one and as we start placing a higher value on safety to passengers as well as pedestrians and as our governmental agencies and police and lawmakers get more and more serious about enforcing safety laws etc, so will we receive better specc-ed cars from the manufacturers at fair prices. Until then, it will remain a pipe dream. As of this moment our exploding, uneducated, poverty stricken population is one reason why there is so much competition and possibly why we place so little value on human life.
Having said all this, India is still a far better and happier and safer place to live in, than say the darker bits of Africa or Haiti or somewhere like that!
I for one cannot understand why the car prices only seem to go up and up and up. Where is the big advantage there of mass production then, is a question that I am unable to find a reasonable answer to!


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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
Its really an insult and a discrimination to Indians when a company sells the same car with full safety specs overseas while not even making it an optional offering to their Indian customers.

Last edited by shankar.balan : 29th February 2012 at 14:55.
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Old 6th March 2012, 13:26   #279
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Default Re: Are Indians being ripped off ?

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As of now, safety etc are considered luxuries and in a typical capitalistic profiteering kind of scenario, the car companies are simply making hay while the sun shines!
Exactly, my point.

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
It is not wrong to make money. However it is completely wrong to overcharge for basic stuff. The lowest spec Marutis and Mahindras and Tatas for example are little more than tin boxes on wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine.
Again, exactly my point. Why are we not waking up to this reality and accepting a Corolla or a Civic for 12/14L?

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As our market evolves and develops into a more discerning one and as we start placing a higher value on safety to passengers as well as pedestrians and as our governmental agencies and police and lawmakers get more and more serious about enforcing safety laws etc, so will we receive better specc-ed cars from the manufacturers at fair prices. Until then, it will remain a pipe dream.
Unless we customers or as a people of a great democratic nation start shouting on this, things will not move. If we accept mediocrity, there we stand.

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Having said all this, India is still a far better and happier and safer place to live in, than say the darker bits of Africa or Haiti or somewhere like that!
I for one cannot understand why the car prices only seem to go up and up and up. Where is the big advantage there of mass production then, is a question that I am unable to find a reasonable answer to!
Until the point people stop saying that taxes are the reason for the high prices, nothing good is going to happen. How long we are going to say this and keep saving these car companies? Every country has a tax structure, besides all other uniqueness. Car companies should find the best possible way to best serve that country understanding the needs of the customers, without compromising on quality. India, in fact provides abundant opportunities on that account, cheap land prices, cheap labour, cheap raw materials, tax saving havens in the name of SEZs and an ever growing market. With all these, if they still don't do justice to their consumers, as customers we should make them fail and teach that lesson. As I said before, if we try to save them by accepting mediocrity, all those car companies will keep us ripping off.
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Old 4th April 2012, 20:39   #280
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Default 300 BHP car under 20Lac

Why can't we get a 300BHP car for around 20Lacs when its available almost in every other country.
We get peanuts in terms of power in 20Lac segment.

Following are a few 300BHP cars available worldwide well within this budget
Ford Mustang GT
Nissan 350Z

If its import duty in India preventing them to be in budget, why India manufactured cars so expensive compared to the world, and is there any performance car made in India?
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Old 4th April 2012, 21:08   #281
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Dude the best car you can have is gonna be a 320i or 320d. No need for opening a new thread just for studying car duty. Search for them plenty.
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Old 4th April 2012, 21:17   #282
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Default Re: 300 BHP car under 20Lac

In a highly FE-conscious market like India, what is the real demand for a 300+BHP monster?

If the demand is low, is it really feasible to set up a manufacturing plant over here? So the only option is importing.

By imposing low or realistic duties on such a monster, should the Govt encourage gas-guzzlers?

All the answers are pretty obvious.
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Old 4th April 2012, 22:01   #283
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Default Re: 300 BHP car under 20Lac

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... and is there any performance car made in India?
DC Avanti should be the answer for this question. I guess this car is supposed to be under 20L, but I am NOT sure how much of a "proper" 20L car it's going to be. I remember that team-bhp was NOT very happy with the model showcased during Auto Expo. Again our nation is quite FE obsessed - so NOT sure will anyone put that kind of money for a 300 bhp "niche" market.
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Old 4th April 2012, 22:04   #284
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Default Re: 300 BHP car under 20Lac

If the Evo X was built / assembled in India it would be priced between 15 and 25 L.

Taxes and car companies using that as an excuse for profiteering are the reasons we have over priced cars in this market.

Yes there is low demand for these cars as imports but all a manufacturer here needs to do is offer a few of those for sale. No major changes, just improve the shocks, brakes, engine and you are good to go. Can be done.
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Old 4th April 2012, 22:34   #285
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Default Re: 300 BHP car under 20Lac

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Originally Posted by Royal_Snake View Post
Why can't we get a 300BHP car for around 20Lacs when its available almost in every other country.
We get peanuts in terms of power in 20Lac segment.
is there any performance car made in India?
You can buy a Laura TSI and do petes stage 2 performance upgrade. The claimed output power is 320bhp. The car does 0 to 100 in 6.9 seconds, 0-200 in 25 seconds. Upgrades include remap, bigger turbo,suspension and brakes. The total modification cost is around 7-8 lakhs

Last edited by anb : 4th April 2012 at 22:35.
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