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Old 15th September 2007, 10:39   #136
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I am no expert myself but for education sake:

An engine creates combustion by letting fuel and air into the cylinders and then "sparking" it, or creating a small explosion. These explosions are what drive the vehicle, enabling the car to put power to the wheels. However, there are a wide variety of factors that influence how quickly the engine creates combustion and also how quickly it expels the exhaust waste that is created. One of the most important factors, though, are the engine valves. The valves on an engine are the principle parts that allow air to enter the engine, and are responsible for releasing exhaust. If the valves are not opened and closed in a certain way, an engine becomes completely useless. Thus, a camshaft is used to open and close the valves. How does that happen? Well, a camshaft has a number of lobes on it, when rotated, these lobes push or hit against the valves, thus opening and closing them in a certain order.

In self adjusting Valves, clearances are kept consistent throughout the entire running life of the engine by a self-adjusting hydraulic valve clearance mechanism. There is no need to adjust valve clearances, ever.

Its not a good if 2.2L does not have a self adjusting valves as the engine will need valve adjustment every few thousand KM's and affects the engine performance overall, not good

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Originally Posted by Rahulk76 View Post
I am no expert on the engine valves etc and other thing, but what i came across was that 2.2 doesnt has self adjusting valves.(does that make any sense) when compared to self adjusting hydraulic valves as in current dicor.
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Old 15th September 2007, 15:41   #137
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Originally Posted by Rahulk76 View Post
S

1. w12.....It easily does 140@2300 and 160@2600 still way for another 400rpm but is limited by revlimiter in the ECU.It just doesnt let it go beyond 2600rpm.


2. It goes without much saying and discussions that a long geared vehicle of SUV class which develops peak torque at relatively less rpm is a extremely comfy cruiser and has the ability to maintain that comfortable 120-130 speed without putting much stress on the engine parts. Hope this answers ur questions.

1. The Top speed of safari mentioned in the manual and road test linked earlier is 142 Kmph and not 160.

2. See tha data above. Safari does 90 in 4th at 66.3% of it maximum RPM. Scorpio does the same at 60.6% of it maximum RPM. So on what basis do you identify one as a relaxed cruiser ? If you look at only data Safari is slightly less relaxed compared to scorpio. As we are comparing road speeds , final gearing is also accounted for. IMO Both engines are very good long distannce cruisers.

Both have fifth gear with overdrive with similar ratios. So the ratio of Engine speeds at 120 or 130 Kmph to maximum engine speed for both vehicles will be similar.

So there is no scientific basis to say one is a better and more comfortable cruiser which puts less stress on engine parts , compared to others.
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Old 15th September 2007, 20:19   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w 12 View Post
Dude, using your own logic, If Safari does 100 Kmph below 1800 , then it should do 194 kmph at 3500 rpm. Now dont tell me your stock Safari does 194 Kmph in fifth gear . ( there is something known as rev limiter in 5th gear, which is an overdrive ) And rev limiter in over drive is not a proprietary technology.

Here is the comparison -

safari does 90 Kmph in 4th at 2320 rpm ( which is 66.3% of its maximum RPM of 3500 ) source - overdrive test , september 05

Scorpio does 90 Kmph in 4th at 2880 rpm ( which is 60.6 % of its maximum rpm of 4750 ) source - overdrive test , March 05

Fifth is overdrive with similar ratios in both vehicles.

Both the vehicles are relaxed highway cruisers and attain 90 - 100 speeds at 60 - 65% of their maximum RPM.

Now you tell me why the numbers are not similar and what is the specific trait of safaris engine, which makes it a better highway cruiser., compared to others.
Safari is limited to 2500 rpm in 5th... no matter what you do. Secondly I was talking about absolute numbers not relative as you seem to be talking here.
1) The fact that safari reaches 100 kph at around the peak torque rpm means its a relaxed tourer.
2) At around 1700 rpm the turbo is fully spooled up and Safari Dicor is a different animal altogether when on turbo boost, just put your foot down in 3rd gear over 1500 rpm and you will come to know what I mean.
3) When I say a great highway cruiser, it also concerns suspension, stability and seating comfort which scorpio cant even come close to.
4) I am not compairing the two cars, but at speeds over 100 kph there's no comparison b/w the two.
5) I am not saying safari has an overall better engine.... but its a hell lot better on the highway compared to city.
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Old 16th September 2007, 18:58   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
1) The fact that safari reaches 100 kph at around the peak torque rpm means its a relaxed tourer.
2) At around 1700 rpm the turbo is fully spooled up and Safari Dicor is a different animal altogether when on turbo boost, just put your foot down in 3rd gear over 1500 rpm and you will come to know what I mean.
3) When I say a great highway cruiser, it also concerns suspension, stability and seating comfort which scorpio cant even come close to.
4) I am not compairing the two cars, but at speeds over 100 kph there's no comparison b/w the two.
5) I am not saying safari has an overall better engine.... but its a hell lot better on the highway compared to city.
1. The other vehicle in question reachs peak torque at even lower road speeds (and engine speeddas a %age of max engine rpms.) So that should make it a more relaxed cruiser?
2. All turbo diesel engines do the same. And all of them accelerate rapidly , when turbo is running and when you put your foot down. Yet to come across a turbo diesel which is slower with the turbo running than without.
3. Your original post talked only about engine RPM ,road speed . Hence my reply.
4. May be for you and To each his own . No issues there at all.
5. The comparative engine and rpm data posted by me earlier does not show any such conclusive results. Till I see some such conclusive data , I will stick to what I said earlier.

Last edited by w 12 : 16th September 2007 at 19:08.
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Old 20th September 2007, 15:57   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w 12 View Post
5. The comparative engine and rpm data posted by me earlier does not show any such conclusive results. Till I see some such conclusive data , I will stick to what I said earlier.
No offense meant but have you driven both? Or is it a simple "I have a Scorpio so its the best"?
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Old 20th September 2007, 16:04   #141
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there is something with the scorpio owners,they always try to prove that Scorpio is better than Safari which they fail obviously.i have felt this so many times and this is the latest.

last week on way to Mussoorie,i was cruising happily around 120 in my safari,overtook a scorpio which was doing 90+
and the moment i overtook him,he swung into action and started trying as hell to overtake me,believe me that guy cud kill any1 ,he was trying so desperately and in a non sense way

i had to let him pass after around 20kms cos my GF felt pity and she was worried that the mad scorpio guy will kill someone on the road.

but one thing he and i knew very clearly who's the winner in handling at high speeds between Safari and Scorpio
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Old 20th September 2007, 16:15   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suman View Post
No offense meant but have you driven both? Or is it a simple "I have a Scorpio so its the best"?
Can you show one post where I said / implied so ? I was comparing documented technical data. If you scroll back , you will see I said both make very good highway cruisers., based on rpm data.

Or is it a case of " I have a safari , so it is te best , to hell with data " . no offence meant or taken .
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Old 20th September 2007, 16:26   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w 12 View Post
Or is it a case of " I have a safari , so it is te best , to hell with data " . no offence meant or taken .
I was expecting this W12. Your analysis of data didn't make any sense to me so I asked the question - you are being theoretical to the point where practicality doesn't seem to matter. There are actual numbers being given to you but you are going on with your theory.

How would you know which is a better highway cruiser if you haven't driven both or been in both on the highway?

You will notice that I haven't yet passed judgement on "better" as I haven't been in both on the highway. Though I've heard enough from those who've been in the Scorpio at high speeds on the highway. lol.
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Old 20th September 2007, 16:27   #144
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Comparing just the technical data will never get you the real life picture.
so please stop doing that.

and i have driven both Scorpio and Safari and its Safari for me any day like most of people who have extensively driven both.

Scorpio engine is a bit(bit is always small) more responsive than Safari initially but once you cross 100+ and cruise on,u will feel scared in scorpio cos of the poor handling and bumpy ride which is opposite in Safari

Scorpio is so much cramped for a tall guy like me,that i used to hate when i had to drive my bro's scorpio

scorpio nowhere comes near to Safari cos ultimately its the journey that matters not the destination and people look for comfort and safety when they think wisely.
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Old 20th September 2007, 16:38   #145
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Kindly stop making personal comments. - Mod Team
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Old 20th September 2007, 16:45   #146
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The Safari vs Scorpio is a no contest at high speeds. Safari is way more confidence inspiring at 100+ speeds. The scorpio is seriously scary to drive at high speeds. The engine might be capable of more but the chassis is woeful.
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Old 20th September 2007, 16:51   #147
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I couldnt agree more to the above said comment, being a scorpio owner my ownself! Anything beyond 100 in a scorpio, you are putting the life of you as well as fellow men on the road in great jeopardy!
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Old 20th September 2007, 17:01   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suman View Post
1. Your analysis of data didn't make any sense to me so I asked the question -

2. There are actual numbers being given to you but you are going on with your theory.

3. How would you know which is a better highway cruiser if you haven't driven both or been in both on the highway?

4. You will notice that I haven't yet passed judgement on "better" as I haven't been in both on the highway. Though I've heard enough from those who've been in the Scorpio at high speeds on the highway. lol.
1.If you have any specific questions on the data, scroll back or feel free to ask. I will try to answer in my theortical way . Theoretical ? LOL . The original posting which I countered was also based the same theory , if you recall.

2. I have countered those numbers.

3. And how do you know I have not driven both or been in both ? Besides , You are totally missing the point. The original post said safari makes a better highway vehicle because of its RPM / torque / speed numbers. I gave examples of other vehicles with similar or better rpm / torque / speed numbers.

4. Neither have I . Al I said was that if rpm "theory" is good for one vehicle , the same theory will be good for other vehicles as well.And purely based on these numbers quoted , both vehicles should make good highway cruisers.
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Old 20th September 2007, 17:23   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w 12 View Post
1. The other vehicle in question reachs peak torque at even lower road speeds (and engine speeddas a %age of max engine rpms.) So that should make it a more relaxed cruiser?
Lower road speeds.. I am talking abt speeds up 100 kph and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by w 12 View Post
2. All turbo diesel engines do the same. And all of them accelerate rapidly , when turbo is running and when you put your foot down. Yet to come across a turbo diesel which is slower with the turbo running than without.
I dont know where this came from, my point was safari was a totally different animal when on turbo boost, the pull especially considering its a 2.2 tonne vehicle is commendable and it is difficult to catch once over 100 kph.
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Old 20th September 2007, 17:24   #150
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Originally Posted by hawkeye View Post
Its very difficult to choose the best of the lot as none of these total up to a 10/10.

As of today, it has to be

1.Scorpio: Still not a bad option considering the price. I rather spend a lac jazzing it up than spending 2-3 lacs more on the Safari at the moment. The big positive over the Safari is that its proved itself wonderfully well over these years and my mind will be far more peaceful if I happen to purchase a Scorpio against the new Safari. Mahindra needs to get on the newer version sooner and get that handling improved. It will be a killer IMO.

2.Safari: It seems to beat the competition overall and it looks to be very good to me, but personally I would be afraid to buy a newly launched TATA. I simply don't want be a part of their trial n' test team. Would wait atleast a couple of months before judging it as good (hopefully so).

3. Innova: Alien in the league. The whole comparion is out of place. It's never meant to be used as the other two are. I need not comment and personally I find nothing special in it apart from the CRDi engine and the "T" factor.

Would like to mention that Toyota have an oppurtunity here to work sensibly on the Fortuner and price it within the striking distance of the Safari buyers. Nothing like it, if the keep it under 11-12 lacs.



The Innova and the Scorpio are available for these prices and so was the old Safari.
I agree with you partly Hawkeye. Innova doesn't have a place here no comparison ,its more of a people carrier. Scorpio has proven its place by better maintainability records and yes the handling is a major concern which the Lotus guys also couldn't fix and is a pain at high speeds.

The Safari, I am assuming whatever said in this forum is what the new safari comes out with, then I feel we are not going to be the Testing lot as this vehicle with the new engine has been exported in the past few months. However as you put it TATA vehicles are not to be jumped in right away, agreed.

Fortuner: Now I wish the Toyota guys read this cause if they get this big guy into the fight, it could be the wild card here. A fortuner priced at about 10Lakhs can confuse the Indian SUV market out of their wits. Which I think could be possible if Toyota put their heart into it. But from what I know being an outsider they would wait and watch both these launches Safari 2.2 and Scorpio 2.2 very carefully and then get their trump card out [If need be], which hopefully increases the options of the SUV buyer here. I think Fortuner is the best bet at this time and we have been waiting for it for 2 years now and toyota has shown no signs of getting this here. last I heard they were more interested in the small car market [Please correct me if wrong]. So as of now I cant see Fortuner coming to India so till then Safari2.2 would be King ! Dont know if you watched the video posted by Rajismine in the New Safari2.2 thread but the vehicle at 130km/hr went like Carlos Santana on his favorite song [Smooth].!
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