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Old 25th April 2007, 12:28   #106
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Originally Posted by bigman View Post
The cone test was a valid test of stability/handling at speed. The Merc A class was found wanting in similar tests (Elk test) in Sweden which led to a full recall and a stability control system being added together with modded suspension. The magazine undertook a similar test for the Safari and Scorpio, they found the Safari lacking.
"Cone Test" is not equal to the "Elk Test" (actually it was the REVERSE Elk Test that the A Class failed - when you do the Elk Test in REVERSE gear). Suman has explained why. 7 cones in 100 meters is not a stability test but a manouverability test. If it were a stability test there should've been a MINIMUM speed to it. Preferably something in the 80s.
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Old 25th April 2007, 13:26   #107
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"Cone Test" is not equal to the "Elk Test" (actually it was the REVERSE Elk Test that the A Class failed - when you do the Elk Test in REVERSE gear). Suman has explained why. 7 cones in 100 meters is not a stability test but a manouverability test. If it were a stability test there should've been a MINIMUM speed to it. Preferably something in the 80s.
First I heard about it failing a "reverse" Elk test. The car shows of the time replicated the Swedish findings by using a cone test. The stability problem of the car was clearly shown in a cone test in various UK automags at the time. I think a few of the consumer shows on television also did something similar to show the vehicles stability problems. At low speeds the Merc was fine but push it a bit in a cone test and wheels were lifting off the ground.

Why do you Safari owners find it so hard to accept that the Scorpio beat the Safari in the test and this debunked most you handling/stability myths about the Safari being supreme.
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Old 25th April 2007, 13:33   #108
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Why do you Safari owners find it so hard to accept that the Scorpio beat the Safari in the test and this debunked most you handling/stability myths about the Safari being supreme.
Drive one and thou shalt know. The two arent even remotely comparable on the handling or stability fronts, from whatever experience I have.

I do not speak as a 'Safari Owner', but as a person who has driven both vehicles extensively.

However, if you wish to believe that this is a myth so be it. We're not here to change your opinions, and this is a pointless mine is better than yours exercise. The issue has been discussed to death before, and this 'cone test' thing has been debated too.

Why dig up the grave? Go in peace, brother - if you wish to believe that the Scorpio handles better, please yourself.

Last edited by Steeroid : 25th April 2007 at 13:37.
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Old 25th April 2007, 13:56   #109
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Why do you Safari owners find it so hard to accept that the Scorpio beat the Safari in the test and this debunked most you handling/stability myths about the Safari being supreme.
Then I'm sorry to say that perhaps you haven't understood the posts..........no ones disputing it. In fact, Bigman, if you do your homework, you'll see that I'd pointed this out in my post no 19 on the thread "Test Driven - the New Scorpio". So there's no question of finding it hard to accept.

Its just that I'm separating "stability" from "maneuverability" (which I can now do after having owned a Safari, in fact Steer had pointed this out in post no 21 of the same thread) which is probably irritating you for some reason. What's also surprising is that your opinions seemed to have radically changed since those days (if you read your post no 23 on the same thread, you'll realize why I'm saying this)
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Old 25th April 2007, 16:11   #110
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Drive one and thou shalt know.

Why dig up the grave? Go in peace, brother - if you wish to believe that the Scorpio handles better, please yourself.
steer i love your sarcastic cynicism!you crack me up....lol
take a bow O' exalted one!
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Old 25th April 2007, 16:41   #111
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Drive one and thou shalt know. The two arent even remotely comparable on the handling or stability fronts, from whatever experience I have.

I do not speak as a 'Safari Owner', but as a person who has driven both vehicles extensively.

However, if you wish to believe that this is a myth so be it. We're not here to change your opinions, and this is a pointless mine is better than yours exercise. The issue has been discussed to death before, and this 'cone test' thing has been debated too.

Why dig up the grave? Go in peace, brother - if you wish to believe that the Scorpio handles better, please yourself.
This is a forum whats wrong with discussion ? I am sure everything about every car subject has been discussed somewhere on the forum ?

On the one hand you claim you are not a Safari nuthugger yet you cannot accept a test done by an automag which found flaws you claim do not exist in the Safari (or are worse in the Scorpio). You upset the Safari performed worse than the Scorpio ?

My belief is backed by the test in the automag, whats your opinion based on ? How many comparative cone tests you done in both vehicles ? I have driven both (non Dicor Safari and the TD Scorpio) and I could find flaws in both vehicles but that doe snot mean I pull the blinkers over my eyes when it comes to accepting the findings of tests.

Whatever next ? No hole in the ozone layer because you have not seen it ?

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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Then I'm sorry to say that perhaps you haven't understood the posts..........no ones disputing it. In fact, Bigman, if you do your homework, you'll see that I'd pointed this out in my post no 19 on the thread "Test Driven - the New Scorpio". So there's no question of finding it hard to accept.

Its just that I'm separating "stability" from "maneuverability" (which I can now do after having owned a Safari, in fact Steer had pointed this out in post no 21 of the same thread) which is probably irritating you for some reason. What's also surprising is that your opinions seemed to have radically changed since those days (if you read your post no 23 on the same thread, you'll realize why I'm saying this)
Why would it irritate me, I do not own either of the vehicles but have driven them. You guys cannot back anything up with independent tests.

It is a fact that the Merc A class flaws were tested and the instability quite clearly demonstrated with a simple cone test. Car magazines in the UK and a few consumer shows clearly demonstrated the stability problems using a cone test.

Last edited by adya33 : 25th April 2007 at 16:54.
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Old 25th April 2007, 16:55   #112
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Originally Posted by bigman View Post
Why would it irritate me, I do not own either of the vehicles but have driven them. You guys cannot back anything up with independent tests.

It is a fact that the Merc A class flaws were tested and the instability quite clearly demonstrated with a simple cone test. Car magazines in the UK and a few consumer shows clearly demonstrated the stability problems using a cone test.
Bigman, mercedes A class was not proven unstable by a simple cone test.
The test is called elk test
BBC - h2g2 - Mercedes A-Class
Moose test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Elk test simulates avoiding an Elk on the road. If it was in India, it would be called the "Cow test".
I can safetly say that the indica does not topple in the "Cow test" at 80kmph, but thats offtopic.
Coming back to topic, maneuverability and stability are two different things.
The Automag did which one was fastest through the cones, without touching cones. If they had taken a Limo to do this test, it would have been the slowest.
Now a limo can't be easier to topple than a safari/scorpio or even the innova, but its not maneuverable like the former.
Its not very difficult to fail an elk test.
Infact the Dacia logan also failed the test, but due to work out tires after excessive testing. I'm reasonable both Safari and Scorpio will topple if an auto mag put them through the elk test, and based on my driving experience of the older scorpio and the DICOR, the scorpio would topple earlier.

Now coming to the point you have been harping, in the Automag test I doubt they took either the safari or scorpio above 50kmph. The Elk test is done at around 70-80kmph.
Also the test is repeatedly done till the car skids around or topples the cones.
Mercedes A class did neither, it just turned turtle. Swing the steering at 80kmph, and your car spins around, thats okay, but if it goes upside down, well thats called failing the test!

In the Autocar test, neither spun around, neither overturned. Thats because they did not do the elk test.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 25th April 2007 at 16:58.
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Old 25th April 2007, 16:58   #113
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Originally Posted by zenopio View Post
ya JP1 scorpio really rocks ..in looks wise. and also in power wise...nothin can beat it.its a perfect suv and safari is no where near scorpio......its better if we compair safari with tavera.......and more over every vehicle topples ..if the driver in it cant control the vechile at high speeds....i saw many toppled safaris......
Well I understand Zenopio you are a happy owner of a SCORPIO and loves your car (everyone does), but that's some hard comments there on SAFARI. Safari maybe loosing a bit on Acceleration, handling but moreover it's a better and stable vehicle than SCORPIO.

I being a 3rd party and whatsoever no one in my family owns either a Scorpio or a Safari AFAIK. And please don't compare SAFARI with Tavera SAFARI is great SUV with some niggling problems. Even SCORPIO is good enough but cannot match SAFARI as of now.

Have driven both of them and SAFARI seems more lively then SCORPIO and feels better in space and comfort.

:GOD MODE ON: :FLAME SUIT ON:

P.S. Mods can we have poll here that will clear a lot of doubts. Otherwise this discussion will keep on going for ages.
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Old 25th April 2007, 18:39   #114
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I agree that the Scorpio topples a lot, i myself have seen couple of Scorpios toppled in the Chennai Banaglore highway, but never seen a Safari turn turtle. Probably because the engine is a bit underpowered(not that much) and the vehicle ways a lot more and some blessing from the Merk connection TATA has??

I was confused between choosing the Scorpio and the Safari, after i read through this thread and considering the way i drive on High roads, i will stick with the Safari. I am impressed with the Scorpios speed(in par with Skoda Octavia or more) but that is not a good reason for people like me who dont want to see the speedo drop below 120 on high roads..

I have missed to many times by a hairs length purely because of the good tires i invest in, the good breaks in the car and most importantly my rash driving and racing in my teen years that conditioned my skills and taught me a lot. But i am not confident that i will get away with the same on a Scorpio.
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Old 26th April 2007, 10:19   #115
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1.the vehicle ways a lot more and some blessing from the Merk connection TATA has??

2. but that is not a good reason for people like me who dont want to see the speedo drop below 120 on high roads..

3. I have missed to many times by a hairs length purely because of the good tires i invest in, the good breaks in the car and most importantly my rash driving and racing in my teen years that conditioned my skills and taught me a lot.
1.What "merk" connection ? Afaik none exists now.


2. Consistent 120+ on Indian highways , which are mostly 2 lane, without median and not barricaded against cattle , pedestrians and dogs? Your angel of mercy must be working overtime wish you luck anyways.


3. IMO the only lesson to be learnt is that you can are at liberty to take chances with your life by speeding in private roads, tracks but please stop playing with lives of fellow road users by your "rash driving" and racing on public roads..


( I am willing to be flamed for stating this )
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Old 26th April 2007, 10:39   #116
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I have been on a long trip in a 2000 model Safari @ speeds of 140kmp. The car was planted to the ground. But I can't say the same with Innova. Speeds beyond 110kmph make me feel as if the car is not gripping the ground. Some how I don't get the confidence to drive a Innova beyond 110-120 range.
Innova is really comfortable inside especially the 7 seater.

Sales wise most of the Innova's sold are in Hyderbad. Here it rules. Of late safari sales also have pciked up.
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Old 26th April 2007, 10:51   #117
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What is the max speed of Scorpio?

@monster bhp.
I don't think it can match Octavia. Both are completely different kind of cars. Octavia can easily do speeds of 160+.
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Old 26th April 2007, 10:56   #118
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New scorpio (new crde) with those ugly tail lamps (my opinion) at any speeds over a 100 feels very unstable .. Yes , I have driven one .. That too at the recent track day meet when I was returning from chennai to sriperambadur .. Touched 100 on the highway and felt the car was floating a bit with about 7 adults .. Had to immediately go off the throttle , tried it again and still same result .. After the third attempt didnt dare do it again ..

Compared to the safari and innova , yes I do agree that scorpio doesn't handle as good .. And yes I have driven both the innova and the dicor at speeds over 100 and felt safer ..

No is trying to bash scorpio's here .. Its just a matter of personal opinion .. I said what I felt , you are free to prove me wrong ..
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Old 26th April 2007, 11:02   #119
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Hi Folks,
I own a 2006 crde(old version).Have driven it for over 18k kms mostly on highways.I seldom cross 100. I have not spent any money on the truck till date except changing a wiper blade once.
Let us all understand that there is no perfect machine under the sun.Every machine has some flaw or the other,and one mans food is anothers poison.
All the tests do reveal the flaws of a machine but that never stops people from buying it.Every product appeals to some segment.
As responsible team members let us all be responsible and safe drivers instead, of arguing on which machine hits 150!
Amen!


Cheers.
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Old 26th April 2007, 16:39   #120
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Originally Posted by indian21r View Post
What is the max speed of Scorpio?

@monster bhp.
I don't think it can match Octavia. Both are completely different kind of cars. Octavia can easily do speeds of 160+.
Yah i was of the same opinion till i found out the hard way.. I was driving my Skoda from B'lore when a family in a Scorpio gave me a run for my money.. More over he was fully loaded.. Pretty decent, but i guess thats the reason for turning turtle..
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