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Old 2nd December 2009, 14:12   #46
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FE doesn't always depend on the max bhp of an engine. Its how the engine is setup to run at diff rpms under varying conditions that makes the diff.

The whole point of having variable valve timing/lift/duration is to make sure the engine is very aggressive when you go WOT but at the same time economy when you're cruising around at low rpms with part throttle.

I myself have got 14kmpl from my OHC in City conditions, but i also get 8kmpl when i rip the car all day long (mostly in 1st and 2nd gears). So owning a FE car doesn't mean you will see good figures irrespective of how you drive. But if you know how to drive these cars, you can def enjoy a better fuel average.

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Last edited by Shan2nu : 2nd December 2009 at 14:16.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 14:38   #47
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I am having ANHC AT, i just got my 1st service done. FE in bumper-bumper traffice is 9 kml, Bit free city roads 10-11 kmpl and Highway 14-16 kmpl.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 21:27   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Well, Congrats. You have beaten the NHC in FE.

BTW, 12-14kmpl is too big a range, if you know what I mean.

And as far as ACI is concerned, well...

And regarding owner threads, most refer to the FE indicator, which if taken as the standard, Skodas do 32kmpl. Truckload of salt, right ?
Hi I get about 12-14 kmpl for our NHC(Gxi).FE indicator error in ANHC is about 1-2 kmpl less than what is displayed.

I am still calculating fuel efficiency of ANHC post third service.Will post the findings soon.In the highway the fuel efficiency of ANHC seems to be better than NHC,in the same streach of road (Alleppy - Cochin).Maximum I got 75% Highway and 25% city is 16 kmpl.

Latest I did 50% City(Tvm) + Highway (MC road,never used 5th gear) ,Tankful to tankful method 372 km needed 27 L Xtra premium Petrol.

Fuel efficiency 13.78 kpl.FE indicator showed 15.3 kmpl (Error - 1.5)

My ANHC has reached 10,000 km.Even though Honda might have done some cost cutting measures,its sure that they have not compromised anything on the engine.

Will update on http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...swift-vdi.html (Tale of Two City’s ( NHC and ANHC ) and a DDiS (Swift Vdi))
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Old 2nd December 2009, 22:20   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Also everytime, there is a debate on reliability, we get this argument about how the City has proven itself for a decade. Big deal. We have M800s from 1983 that run around town with minimal maintenance and cost less than 1/10th of a city. What would we call that then ? I myself had an M800 for 19 years (1985 to 2004) and I think that the Indian Hondas have a long way to go before they get the long-term reliability award.
110% agreed

Whenever the discussion comes to reliability, Honda is almost always cracked up to be the lone performer standing tall amidst the ruins of non-Honda branded broken down unreliable cars. To add to the example highlighted by SB, most other brands also offer equally reliable cars, but such is the hype surrounding Honda in India that the company can take the customers for a ride by charging a premium and get away with it every time. Hondas are reliable, but so are other brands and claiming it as a Honda USP is simply ridiculous.

Having said that, I would like to appreciate Honda for their marketing strategy more than anything else because they seem to have perfected the art of offering less and yet charging a premium.

Last edited by UKR : 2nd December 2009 at 22:21.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 22:26   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
In the highway the fuel efficiency of ANHC seems to be better than NHC,in the same streach of road (Alleppy - Cochin).
short gearing in NHC is responsible for this. Looks like there is almost 400 rpm difference between two cars at 100 km/hr.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 22:50   #51
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It has been over an year since i joined this forum, i have seen so many debates here, some resulting in ugly personal spats as well

but i have seen one trend w.r.t. Honda, the last conclusion of every debate is as below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UKR View Post
Having said that, I would like to appreciate Honda for their marketing strategy more than anything else because they seem to have perfected the art of offering less and yet charging a premium.
another definite conclusion is if FIAT improves thier After Sales Service, it would rule the india market.

at least we should for this consistent mindshare (=perception) in the mind of the people.

As a Marketeer, i am sure both these perceptions are not true.

What is true is : Honda being an almost single product company has sold 50000 ANHCs in India during last 12 months. They are profitable business.
The customers who have bought these ANHCs are happy.

This success is similar to that of Apple for iPhone. Most of us can estimate the hardware cost of iPhone (= that of any Nokia or HTC or sony Ericsson smart phone), but why people are paying premium ?

Last edited by StarVegabond : 2nd December 2009 at 23:06.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 23:39   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKR View Post
Having said that, I would like to appreciate Honda for their marketing strategy more than anything else because they seem to have perfected the art of offering less and yet charging a premium.
Amazing explanation - but wondering how one can conclude so easily. If it was just the marketing strategy, wouldn't this occur to others (say, Fiat or Ford for example) and they could have just followed Honda and repeated the same success story?

50K families put their trust behind City (and Honda) and bought those supposedly overpriced cars. It would be very naive to dismiss this as a marketing gimmick. Why wouldn't then Honda do that for the rest of their products? Jazz or Civic?

Goes to show that even at that higher price point, City provides more value than that is offered by its competitors - Verna, SX4, Fiesta and oh well, even the Linea.

As has been said before, if the City was priced a lac lower, Honda possibly would run short of supply. Or if City was priced another lac lower, competition would have been history.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 23:41   #53
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For some people "owning" an iPhone is not the same as owning a palm-Pre, even though the latter has lot more features.
Apple gets away with the brand-premium just as Honda is doing here in case of city.

If people are ready to pay, why price it less!
It all depends on how much "premium" each individual can afford to pay for such products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
This success is similar to that of Apple for iPhone. Most of us can estimate the hardware cost of iPhone (= that of any Nokia or HTC or sony Ericsson smart phone), but why people are paying premium ?
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Old 3rd December 2009, 00:10   #54
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Originally Posted by neotraveller View Post
For some people "owning" an iPhone is not the same as owning a palm-Pre, even though the latter has lot more features.
Apple gets away with the brand-premium just as Honda is doing here in case of city.

If people are ready to pay, why price it less!
It all depends on how much "premium" each individual can afford to pay for such products.
sorry for being

Apple knows what people wants. even if iphone has some limitations it feels the pulse of cell phone buyers and provided the features accordingly so as to please customers. obviously you will find people who hates iphones and loves other phones.. it does most things rite like excellent user interface, loads of apps and games to keep us pre occupied during free time, excellent capacitive touchscreen, lightweight, mod friendly.

here is a small analogy of city with respect to iphone.
its quite easy to drive(smooth navigation, touchscreen in case of iphone), has performance(UI of iphone), efficiency to boot and dare i say status(apple enjoy the same...people go ohlalala if they see iphone in your hand.) along with good a.s.s.(excellent warranty coverage by iphone), it has in built game(read acceleration, high speed performance aka engine) to keep us pre occupied during free time, excellent touchscreen as in materials used, lightweight to aid performance and is extremely mod friendly.

now it does have its disadvantage too, like ok-ok handling beaten by linea, good ride quality though beaten by linea, expensive spares, less features compared to competition. just as iphone has some. you will find people who hate city and some who love it. same is the case with iphone.

so yes, people are ready to pay premium for good product, so why not price is higher and make most of it. after all they are here to business and earn profit. nothing wrong with that. with more and more competition Honda is bound to take action. Just like they did by upgrading interior of city to much better levels than before.

just my 2 cents and sorry for long post.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 00:17   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna
ANHC (i-Vtec) allows someone to either drive in a normal economy-driven mode for good FE or drive in a spirited manner. Both of these (good FE as well as great performance) many not go together but at least the engine allows flexibility.
Are you trying to imply that this is a feature unique to ANHC ? I hope not, because I think this flexibility is there in almost all cars.

Driven normally, my Baleno returns 12kmpl in Chennai. But for some 6 months I tried to drive better (not for economy) in what you could call an old-man-way-of-driving and consistently got 14kmpl between tank-fulls. You don't need fancy jargon or premium pricing in a car to shift between economy mode and performance mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward
lol, SB - why don't you compare City with another car in the segment that it sells and suggest how City is poorer than any of them in the aspects that you think are significant?
Did I say that the City is a bad car or is poorer than its peers ? My contention was about the FE part and even there I am not implying that the ANHC sucks in FE - just that calling it the class leader in that factor is not based on facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward
Point is, regardless of what you and I think, City seems to satisfy the needs of significant number of customers in the upper C segment. Sale of 50K cars under an year is a fitting witness to that.
Thats a job well done by Honda. Kudos to them. But we are not here to applaud sales, but to critique cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream
Coming to the reliability part, my 5-year old NHC has never broken down or left me stranded. Honda does make good cars and the ANHC's sales performance is testament to that.
No decent car sold today (I exclude Tata from the list) breaks down in 5 years. Heck, if you service the car on time and don't have major accidents, they won't break down or leave you stranded even in 10 years. How does that become a Honda USP ? As mentioned in my previous post, the tinny hand-me-down M800s have been doing that since 1983.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward
Goes to show that even at that higher price point, City provides more value than that is offered by its competitors - Verna, SX4, Fiesta and oh well, even the Linea.
Not necessarily, especially in India where cars are bought more for status/snob-appeal than to meet actual requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward
if the City was priced a lac lower, Honda possibly would run short of supply. Or if City was priced another lac lower, competition would have been history.
It could also be possible that if priced lower, a large %age of the target segment for City might not see any snob value in owning a car which is priced same as its competition, resulting in demand dipping.

P.S. : The City in its various avatars has its strong points - no denying that. But to say that this is "the" car or that this is the only complete car with no drawbacks or the only reliable car is not based on facts.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 00:56   #56
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Are you trying to imply that this is a feature unique to ANHC ? I hope not, because I think this flexibility is there in almost all cars.

Driven normally, my Baleno returns 12kmpl in Chennai. But for some 6 months I tried to drive better (not for economy) in what you could call an old-man-way-of-driving and consistently got 14kmpl between tank-fulls. You don't need fancy jargon or premium pricing in a car to shift between economy mode and performance mode
Dude you're not realising that you're comparing a 91bhp engine with a 116bhp engine. Thats what i was trying to explain. The ANHC engine inspite of producing 116bhp can still manage to match FE figures of cars with less power and lighter chassis. And the major reason for this is bcoz it can vary its timing, lift and duration depending on driving conditions.

If the ANHC came with the same power and weight but had a regular engine, it wouldn't have been able to give FE figures like these.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 3rd December 2009 at 00:57.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 00:57   #57
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@SB, completely agree with you on those facts and these facts were discussed humpteen times in different threads on TBHP only to get locked/deleted!

I still beleive Honda's status symbol which comes by their premium pricing has been their USP and the reliability/FE is simply being overhyped.

Am yet to witness any outstanding FE figures quoted by ANHC owners here with the iV-TEC! 10 - 12KMPL is just too normal!
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Old 3rd December 2009, 01:21   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post

No decent car sold today (I exclude Tata from the list) breaks down in 5 years. Heck, if you service the car on time and don't have major accidents, they won't break down or leave you stranded even in 10 years. How does that become a Honda USP ? As mentioned in my previous post, the tinny hand-me-down M800s have been doing that since 1983.
I don't want to start a war between city and linea again but, just recently, there is a thread on t-bhp stating a linea broke down. its not even 5 years old.
here is the link

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...iat-linea.html (Had a break down in a Brand New Fiat Linea)

the owner's whole family was stranded on a highway in brand new car
i know this can happen to any car, but i haven't yet heard anyone say, 'their city left them stranded on a highway'.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 02:18   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
Dude you're not realising that you're comparing a 91bhp engine with a 116bhp engine.
I was not comparing the cars or engines - just giving an example of how with almost all cars, you could shift between economy and performance mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
The ANHC engine inspite of producing 116bhp can still manage to match FE figures of cars with less power and lighter chassis.
Which specific cars are you referring to that have less power & lighter chassis but give only the same FE as ANHC ?

Also, on tbhp, we have a general idea of the real-life FE that most cars give. What according to you is the general FE (tankful-to-tankful) that the ANHC gives ? Let's take only the manual-transmission City.

@chevelle, I know what you are getting at. As it is my posts on this thread seem to have raised the hackles of some Honda-lovers and you want me to drag the "F" brand into the fray. Thanks, but no thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevelle
i know this can happen to any car, but i haven't yet heard anyone say, 'their city left them stranded on a highway'.
Maybe you did not listen long enough. There are always exceptions. And guess what, it applies to the "high and mighty" Honda too.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 02:34   #60
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
@SB, completely agree with you on those facts and these facts were discussed humpteen times in different threads on TBHP only to get locked/deleted!

I still beleive Honda's status symbol which comes by their premium pricing has been their USP and the reliability/FE is simply being overhyped.
You should go for a long drive on a Civic and push it and you would know what is all about Honda and their USP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Am yet to witness any outstanding FE figures quoted by ANHC owners here with the iV-TEC! 10 - 12KMPL is just too normal!
You will see now! Not a blind follower/fan of Honda, but unbelievably, my 1 month Civic gives an extra-ordinary FE ~ 13.2 kmpl (tankful to tankful) for the total 1200 kms (average meter reading 13.8 kmpl) with occassional revving to 4K RPM (after 1st service).. You can follow up on my Initial ownership report for more... so there is no denying that ANHC would be more fuel efficient if driven sedately.. and the reason of such FE figure is what Shan2nu quoted here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Dude you're not realising that you're comparing a 91bhp engine with a 116bhp engine. Thats what i was trying to explain. The ANHC engine inspite of producing 116bhp can still manage to match FE figures of cars with less power and lighter chassis. And the major reason for this is bcoz it can vary its timing, lift and duration depending on driving conditions.

If the ANHC came with the same power and weight but had a regular engine, it wouldn't have been able to give FE figures like these.

Shan2nu
Quote:
Maybe you did not listen long enough. There are always exceptions. And guess what, it applies to the "high and mighty" Honda too.[/
Valid statement, only that, so far, I have only seen Tatas/Hyundai/FIAT (palio) breaking down on the roads.. yet to see any Toyota/Honda on the roadside with a technician

Last edited by iTNerd : 3rd December 2009 at 02:44.
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