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Old 3rd December 2009, 02:37   #61
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
@chevelle, I know what you are getting at. As it is my posts on this thread seem to have raised the hackles of some Honda-lovers and you want me to drag the "F" brand into the fray. Thanks, but no thanks.


Maybe you did not listen long enough. There are always exceptions. And guess what, it applies to the "high and mighty" Honda too.
at the very start i mentioned, didn't want to start a war. But that's the most recent example that comes on top of the mind when one thinks about breaking of a car on the road.

I know there are exceptions, but would love to see the exception for Honda too. Not that i am blinded by any brands, just for the information. I think it includes Toyota too.

Of the 50k City sold, if i know one city stranded its not a bad ratio. but of <20k linea sold, one linea stranded is bad ratio. similarly i have also seen accent, ikon, baleno, stranded on highway. but i don't have proof of that in forum here itself. so choose to show you recent example of linea on this very forum itself.

you can easily ignore it if you want mentioning it as one off case. but the point still remains valid and this is good for all brands including Honda and Toyota - The epitome of reliability.

Last edited by chevelle : 3rd December 2009 at 02:39.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 04:20   #62
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Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
Valid statement, only that, so far, I have only seen Tatas/Hyundai/FIAT (palio) breaking down on the roads.. yet to see any Toyota/Honda on the roadside with a technician
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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post

Of the 50k City sold, if i know one city stranded its not a bad ratio. but of <20k linea sold, one linea stranded is bad ratio. similarly i have also seen accent, ikon, baleno, stranded on highway. but i don't have proof of that in forum here itself. so choose to show you recent example of linea on this very forum itself.

you can easily ignore it if you want mentioning it as one off case. but the point still remains valid and this is good for all brands including Honda and Toyota - The epitome of reliability.




I guess thats pushing the whole reliability thing a bit over the top (A bit too much actually), just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean that they don't break down.

Take any decent car today and the fact whether it breaks down or not depends more on the nut driving it (Read: Regular service & maintenance) rather than the manufacturer or the car itself.

Last edited by maglev : 3rd December 2009 at 04:23.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 11:49   #63
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Are you trying to imply that this is a feature unique to ANHC ? I hope not, because I think this flexibility is there in almost all cars.
Not just ANHC but there are cars belonging to almost all brands which employ some kind of variabe valve/timing technology (equivalent of V-tech) to optimise the engine breathing and increase volumetric efficiency depending on the driving condition/power demand.

Last edited by Guna : 3rd December 2009 at 11:53.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 12:05   #64
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Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
You should go for a long drive on a Civic and push it and you would know what is all about Honda and their USP.
I am pretty much aware of the abilities/disabilities of a Civic! Lets not bring Civic into a thread about ANHC!

Just have to wait for the Cruzefication of the Civic in the coming months
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Old 3rd December 2009, 12:12   #65
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Originally Posted by chevelle
Of the 50k City sold, if i know one city stranded its not a bad ratio. but of <20k linea sold, one linea stranded is bad ratio.
I don't know what kind of math you are applying in this logic here - you say a 0.002% defect rate is not bad for Honda, but a 0.005% rate is like intolerable for a Linea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevelle
you can easily ignore it if you want mentioning it as one off case. but the point still remains valid and this is good for all brands including Honda and Toyota - The epitome of reliability.
Are you suggesting that just because you did not see a Honda stranded on the road, by extension it means no Honda ever got stranded ? Cars are just like any other product being manufactured and there is always room for error.

And let us confer the epitome of reliability award on Honda after the oldest Hondas in India do another 10-15 years and match what humble Suzukis have been doing as a matter-of-fact.

On a lighter note, I wonder if the Ikons/Balenos/Accents you saw "stranded" had a flat tyre or the driver had parked for a smoke or whatever. How did you conclude they were all stranded ? Did you stop and check with them ?

EDIT : I just had to do a search on tbhp - since I could not believe that in all the Hondas sold in India, not even one had issues or left the owner stranded. And guess what, there are quite a few threads on this subject.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-not-care.html (Problems With My Civic And Honda Does Not Care)
This Civic owner was left stranded on the highway in sweltering heat. I did not bother to read the whole thread, but looks like he got a lemon. Ofcourse, he can take consolation in the fact that he did not get a normal lemon, but a premium Honda lemon.

Another thread about manufacturing defect in an ANHC.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ng-defect.html (The Sob Story of my brand new Honda City S MT and its serious manufacturing defect.)

Civic manufacturing defect
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...g-defects.html (Civic Manufacturing Defects!!!!)

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 3rd December 2009 at 12:24.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 12:19   #66
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
No decent car sold today (I exclude Tata from the list) breaks down in 5 years. Heck, if you service the car on time and don't have major accidents, they won't break down or leave you stranded even in 10 years. How does that become a Honda USP ? As mentioned in my previous post, the tinny hand-me-down M800s have been doing that since 1983.
I was just stating fact Supreme, not contesting your logic.

But now I am. I started my motoring life with a 10-year-old M800 - and it did break down on me, twice. It was well maintained. After that, my Santro broke down on me a couple of times, including one hour before my wedding reception. It was well maintained.

No doubt those were cheaper cars and perhaps one can argue that a small failure rate is acceptable. However, look at the horror stories we have on this forum with the Skoda Superb. Price/brand/origin don't necessarily equate to quality. Honda, for all their faults, make reliable cars. And mind you, their service is not the best. Despite that, their products function without a hitch. Let's give the devil its due.

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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
I don't want to start a war between city and linea again but, just recently, there is a thread on t-bhp stating a linea broke down. its not even 5 years old.
here is the link

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...iat-linea.html (Had a break down in a Brand New Fiat Linea)

the owner's whole family was stranded on a highway in brand new car
i know this can happen to any car, but i haven't yet heard anyone say, 'their city left them stranded on a highway'.
Case in point, above.

Last edited by StarScream : 3rd December 2009 at 12:20.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 12:34   #67
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Originally Posted by StarScream
I was just stating fact Supreme, not contesting your logic.
Yeah, I know. And I was also stating a point from experience - my own with non-Honda cars.

See, you are taking my point literally. When I said that a decent car will run 5-10 years without leaving you stranded, it does not mean that 100% of the cars from all companies will do that. There would be some exceptions for all manufacturers, but generally the picture is that the cars won't fail you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream
Honda, for all their faults, make reliable cars.
Agreed. Never denied that. The only point of contention here is when someone says "only Honda makes reliable cars" or "Hondas are the most reliable cars in India". Reliability is not a Honda monopoly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream
Let's give the devil its due.
I posted links to some threads in my previous post will give the "devil" its due.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 12:54   #68
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Originally Posted by maglev View Post
I guess thats pushing the whole reliability thing a bit over the top (A bit too much actually), just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean that they don't break down.

Take any decent car today and the fact whether it breaks down or not depends more on the nut driving it (Read: Regular service & maintenance) rather than the manufacturer or the car itself.
All cars do break down.. but how often? let's not just bring prejudice against Toyota/Honda to demonise their products like any other.. When they have totally changed the motoring landscape of North America in 70s to 90s, with reliable, fuel efficient and yet, desirable products on a budget, it is not easy to label them as any other brands.. otherwise, FIAT/GM/Ford/Chrysler would not be in the kind of limbo that they are in now.. so, give credit where it is due.. and speaking of reliability, the fact is, you would less likely encounter a Toyota/Honda breaking down than a Maruti/Hyundai/TATA/Fiat..

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I still beleive Honda's status symbol which comes by their premium pricing has been their USP and the reliability/FE is simply being overhyped.
Yeah, that explains why 50K ANHC (premium pricing) are sold within a year, and just less than a third of the number of Linea (VFM pricing).. that speaks well for the USP and reliability/FE.. the fact is you will find very less complains/niggles in the ownership reports of ANHC (which sells 3-4 times) than for Linea (chrome beading falling down, new car breaking down, rust, seat knob coming down etc etc..)..

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I am pretty much aware of the abilities/disabilities of a Civic! Lets not bring Civic into a thread about ANHC!

Just have to wait for the Cruzefication of the Civic in the coming months
You do! it is quite different on seeing it and driving it! Well, for the cruzefication of Civic, I think Civic is too formidable a brand to be cruzefied that easily.. the irony is, a cruze, enjoying its novely factor, with diesel rocket, loaded with gizmos etc. only managed to sell 500 odd numbers whereas, the 3-4 years old Civic, managed to hang on 550 numbers..that tells something about the brand!

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
And let us confer the epitome of reliability award on Honda after the oldest Hondas in India do another 10-15 years and match what humble Suzukis have been doing as a matter-of-fact.

On a lighter note, I wonder if the Ikons/Balenos/Accents you saw "stranded" had a flat tyre or the driver had parked for a smoke or whatever. How did you conclude they were all stranded ? Did you stop and check with them ?
Does not make sense to comparea suzuki 800 with a Honda/Toyota in terms of reliability.. the 800 came with pretty simple machanicals and less electronics.. whereas on the onset of 90's, Honda/Toyota came to India with C segment cars, and that too with the comtemporary technologies.. so you can't compare the reliability aspect on different segment of cars with technology of 80's to 90's
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Old 3rd December 2009, 12:58   #69
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Yeah, I know. And I was also stating a point from experience - my own with non-Honda cars.

See, you are taking my point literally. When I said that a decent car will run 5-10 years without leaving you stranded, it does not mean that 100% of the cars from all companies will do that. There would be some exceptions for all manufacturers, but generally the picture is that the cars won't fail you. .
Sure. After my problematic M800 and Santro, I owned a Zen and an Esteem. Never had a problem, although I only kept them for 2 years.

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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Agreed. Never denied that. The only point of contention here is when someone says "only Honda makes reliable cars" or "Hondas are the most reliable cars in India". Reliability is not a Honda monopoly.
Of course, reliability is not a Honda monopoly. But there is an indescribable feel about Honda cars. What I mean by that, without getting into the metaphysical, is that the NHC is the first car that I have owned this long. And the reason is, it has given me no reason to change it. I don't feel the need to change it. No rattles, no squeaks, no issues, nothing. Even the seat upholstery hasn't lost shape or torn (which happened to my Santro). Just keeps ticking. I did not feel that way about Maruti or Hyundai products.

I'm not a Honda fanboy. I think their pricing is usurious - as I've said before they wouldn't be able to get away with that in the west. The interiors of the ANHC at launch were crap and the feature list thin for the price. When I wanted a car for my wife, I went and bought a Hyundai that fit our needs.

My only reason to change the NHC is that I need a larger car for a growing family. So Innova here I come. In the absence of that need, I'd have probably kept the NHC a lot longer.

Last edited by StarScream : 3rd December 2009 at 13:10.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 13:19   #70
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All said and done, if we take "Reliability" into consideration then, i would say it is TOYOTA all the way, their vehicles have bullet proof reliability & the least number of niggles / breakdown or whatever you want to call it as far as i have heard from the users and read the ownership reports on the forum.

Till now people swear in the name of Qualis & that tradition has been carried forward by the Innova.

Last edited by sharma_sanjeevi : 3rd December 2009 at 13:21.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 14:36   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iTNerd
let's not just bring prejudice against Toyota/Honda to demonise their products like any other.. When they have totally changed the motoring landscape of North America in 70s to 90s, with reliable, fuel efficient and yet, desirable products on a budget,
Let us keep US out of the picture and stick to India, because it is not a direct comparison in many criteria - mainly your "budget products" part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iTNerd
the fact is, you would less likely encounter a Toyota/Honda breaking down than a Maruti/Hyundai/TATA/Fiat..
And what data is this "fact" of yours based on ? Hearsay or "I saw an Indicab stranded, so Tata is junk" ? Don't you also think there could be another angle to this "less likely to encounter" theory ? As compared to the Marutis/Tatas/Hyundais on the road, how many Toyotas/Hondas are there ? Significantly lesser, right ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iTNerd
Does not make sense to comparea suzuki 800 with a Honda/Toyota in terms of reliability.. the 800 came with pretty simple machanicals and less electronics.. whereas on the onset of 90's, Honda/Toyota came to India with C segment cars, and that too with the comtemporary technologies.. so you can't compare the reliability aspect on different segment of cars with technology of 80's to 90's
What does reliability as in "not being stranded" have to do with fancy electronics ? Does the City having power-windows means that the chances of it breaking down are more than an M800 which has manual windows ? Or does having VTec means the car is more prone to breakdown ? Then that is not good enough technology.

And what was so fancy about the NHC anyway that other cars did not have ? The NHC did not even have ABS / air-bags while cheaper sedans and even hatches had them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream
But there is an indescribable feel about Honda cars. What I mean by that, without getting into the metaphysical, is that the NHC is the first car that I have owned this long. And the reason is, it has given me no reason to change it.
Most of us have that "indescribable feel" about our cars (irrespective of the brand) unless we got a lemon. You have owned the NHC for what 5 years and say that you did not feel the need to change. Cool. But does that mean it is something you feel only with a Honda ? No.

I don't know guys, but after debating reliability, now you guys are going into intangible and unrelated things like "feel", "fancy electronics" and stuff.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 15:17   #72
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Valid statement, only that, so far, I have only seen Tatas/Hyundai/FIAT (palio) breaking down on the roads.. yet to see any Toyota/Honda on the roadside with a technician
What a funny statement this is.

If you are living in India for quite sometime, how can you not see a Maruti breakdown on the roads? I am not making a point that Marutis are unreliable, but just by considering the huge number of Maruti cars running in India, chances are high that you can see one on the road - broke down. I saw one M800 just yesterday. The other day I saw one Zen being pushed to the roadside by a couple in heavy city traffic. I once saw an M800's clutch giving up in heavy bumper to bumper traffic. Our Zen-D's clutch just gave up once my brother was driving it. Again, nothing against Maruti Suzuki, just trying to make a point.

I've seen Qualises broke down, and I recently saw an Innova being towed to the service station.

Any car can break down on the road my friend. There are many single point of failures in all of them unlike air planes.

Last edited by clevermax : 3rd December 2009 at 15:27.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 15:38   #73
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I would like to bring one point in the picture here.
No doubt Honda cars are reliable and do the task well, but i haven't seen any Honda clocking more than 2 lakhs kilometres.
And regarding seeing more Maruti, Hyundai and Tata broken down on roads. What Honda manages to sell in a year, Maruti sells in a month.It would be unfair to compare them taking the breakdowns seen on road as a parameter.
Also Honda cars are driven by people who paid a lot for the car and don't abuse their car much. Handover a Honda to a taxi driver whose Indica gets serviced every two weeks and then we might get to know the reliability of Honda cars. As far as Toyota is concerned we have many Qualises doing duty even after 4 lacs kilometres.

I am not bashing Honda here but Its the overall package and the brand image associated with Honda that makes ANHC a runaway success.We must appreciate Honda for giving us a good product that does most of the job well.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 16:05   #74
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Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
Yeah, that explains why 50K ANHC (premium pricing) are sold within a year, and just less than a third of the number of Linea (VFM pricing).. that speaks well for the USP and reliability/FE.. the fact is you will find very less complains/niggles in the ownership reports of ANHC (which sells 3-4 times) than for Linea (chrome beading falling down, new car breaking down, rust, seat knob coming down etc etc..)..
How many Fiesta/Verna/SX4 have you seen breaking down or owner having sleepless nights about owning a car? Please dont make your assumptions/perceptions as... FACTS!

If a Linea is breaking appart then the sales number of the Linea would make everything obvious!

And my personal experience with the Fiesta has been good. I am consistently getting above 11KMPL in normal driving conditions. Not driven sedately or being spirited! And nothing fell apart from the car or did it break down. How does it make the ANHC special then?

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Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
You do! it is quite different on seeing it and driving it! Well, for the cruzefication of Civic, I think Civic is too formidable a brand to be cruzefied that easily.. the irony is, a cruze, enjoying its novely factor, with diesel rocket, loaded with gizmos etc. only managed to sell 500 odd numbers whereas, the 3-4 years old Civic, managed to hang on 550 numbers..that tells something about the brand!
I repeat, lets not go offtopic bringing Cruze/Civic here! Simply, makes no sense!

Last edited by anachronix : 3rd December 2009 at 16:09.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 16:15   #75
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you like it or not, Fact is ANHC is accepted by mass market in that segment. I wouldn't buy the theory of "Honda" badge attached to it. If that is true, even JAZZ should have been a hit. Even that is from HONDA.

Fact is, in Jazz segment, Indian market found better VFM in other options like i20 etc. Hence it didn't work. But, in ANHC segment, it is a leader as people didn't see better VFM in other choices available."Marketing: The First selling of a product is done by advertising. Further selling is done by the product itself. Any further advertising are just reminders."
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