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Old 3rd December 2009, 21:33   #91
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Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward
Oh yes, but why was Baleno a dud?
Very relevant question in the context of this thread. Thanks, man. You are really contributing to the discussion. Keep it up.

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Originally Posted by chevelle
and i had given epitome of reliability to Toyota and not Honda if you notice it carefully.
Really ? So who was it who said the following ?
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Originally Posted by chevelle
i haven't yet heard anyone say, 'their city left them stranded on a highway'.
I posted just a few threads about Hondas leaving people stranded or manufacturing issues with City/Civic. I am sure there are much more out there. So, maybe you know now that this happens to all manufacturers, including the so-called epitomes.

And, I hope you are not really trying to hammer home your point by posting twice.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 21:49   #92
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Very relevant question in the context of this thread. Thanks, man. You are really contributing to the discussion. Keep it up.
In all your posts, you haven't stated your view on why ANHC is selling so well, despite your arguments on how other cars are equally good - in reliability, in FE etc. That's why I asked, if Baleno was equally good, why didn't it sell as well?
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Old 3rd December 2009, 23:11   #93
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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post

I know there are exceptions, but would love to see the exception for Honda too. Not that i am blinded by any brands, just for the information. I think it includes Toyota too.

you can easily ignore it if you want mentioning it as one off case. but the point still remains valid and this is good for all brands including Honda and Toyota - The epitome of reliability.
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post

Really ? So who was it who said the following ? I posted just a few threads about Hondas leaving people stranded or manufacturing issues with City/Civic. I am sure there are much more out there. So, maybe you know now that this happens to all manufacturers, including the so-called epitomes.

And, I hope you are not really trying to hammer home your point by posting twice.
Please refer the post above, the bold word 'including' has been mentioned in response to your statement car being stranded on highway.

also the same para says i would love to see an example of honda stranded which you posted and i thank you for that. that was en lighting.

again see the last sentence where i have put a dash to Toyota and not Honda. I still feel Toyota is THE king of reliability. My benchmark is Toyota. In case your are comparing Suzuki with Honda, than without doubt it would be Honda. The reason is already mentioned in Clevermax's post and what i have been trying to tell you. But it seems you are conveniently ignoring it. I already agreed to your statement in above post that no car manufacturer gets away from that. but it seems you seem to turn blind eye to that statement and trying to prove me wrong otherwise.

secondly, you said in previous post that having fancy electronics in cars don't count towards reliability. if that's the case than why are people stating in various threads that the period from 2002-2005 had worst reliability for Mercedes cars? it seems its not a big deal for you if electronics don't work. Possible reason being Baleno doesn't have any fancy electronics.

Last edited by chevelle : 3rd December 2009 at 23:13.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 23:21   #94
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Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward
you haven't stated your view on why ANHC is selling so well, despite your arguments on how other cars are equally good - in reliability, in FE etc. That's why I asked, if Baleno was equally good, why didn't it sell as well?
It is not just the ANHC that sold well. The NHC was the segment leader and before that the OHC did pretty well. And I don't think this thread is to discuss why they sell well, because anyone who has spent a few days on the forum can search and find the umpteen number of threads which will enlighten you as to why they sell. Do we need to do that all over again, just because you are not aware ?

And same goes for why the Baleno did not sell. Use search in times of doubt and you would get your answers, instead of dragging irrelevant queries into threads that have nothing to do with them.

So, you seem to think that anything that sells is good. Hmm. Good for you.

And @chevelle, I am glad I could enlighten you to the fact that Hondas also fall by the roadside.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 23:37   #95
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I have bashed India Honda on several other posts for variety of reasons but definitely acknowledge the fact that this company has built a very strong brand in India. They are ahead of [FONT=Arial]competition [/FONT]in terms of reinventing their vehicles every 3 - 4 years.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 23:52   #96
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
It is not just the ANHC that sold well. The NHC was the segment leader and before that the OHC did pretty well. And I don't think this thread is to discuss why they sell well, because anyone who has spent a few days on the forum can search and find the umpteen number of threads which will enlighten you as to why they sell. Do we need to do that all over again, just because you are not aware ?

And same goes for why the Baleno did not sell. Use search in times of doubt and you would get your answers, instead of dragging irrelevant queries into threads that have nothing to do with them.

So, you seem to think that anything that sells is good. Hmm. Good for you.
Okay, throw some light and explain what this thread is for?

FYI, I am a NHC owner and I pretty well know why ANHC sells.

I am sorry, but your posts mostly sound like sour grapes! A car which is not good, at least in your eyes, cannot control over 50% of the market share, while others are scrambling to get even 20% of it.

Last edited by AnonymousCoward : 3rd December 2009 at 23:53.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 23:53   #97
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Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
Amazing explanation - but wondering how one can conclude so easily. If it was just the marketing strategy, wouldn't this occur to others (say, Fiat or Ford for example) and they could have just followed Honda and repeated the same success story?

Its easier said than done. Fiat or Ford is not a one man enterprise so that it could just occur to that person to copy Honda. They have their own decision making bodies comprising several people who take decisions based on the research data made available to them. And that is exactly the reason why I appreciate the Honda decision making panel because it has occurred to them as to how to milk the indian consumers.

50K families put their trust behind City (and Honda) and bought those supposedly overpriced cars. It would be very naive to dismiss this as a marketing gimmick. Why wouldn't then Honda do that for the rest of their products? Jazz or Civic?

They have been doing it to city, Jazz and civic alike. City and Civic are selling well but not the Jazz because of the obvious reason that the Indian customer attach a sense of pride in owning a sedan over a hatch. I would say that only a minority of the Indian customers have grown over the sedan prestige mentality. So when Honda decided to put an insane premium on the Jazz, only the minority who thinks outside the sedan prestige mentality bought it. But City got away because of the Honda brand image and the Indian mentality. No offense intended to anyone.

Goes to show that even at that higher price point, City provides more value than that is offered by its competitors - Verna, SX4, Fiesta and oh well, even the Linea.

Value is not something in itself. When one mentions about value, it has to be mentioned as to how the value is provided to make the statement complete. So when it comes to what contributes to the value, it invariably come to reliability, quality, fuel efficiency etc which almost all other brands have also been providing for quite some time now.


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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
sorry for being

Apple knows what people wants. even if iphone has some limitations it feels the pulse of cell phone buyers and provided the features accordingly so as to please customers. obviously you will find people who hates iphones and loves other phones.. it does most things rite like excellent user interface, loads of apps and games to keep us pre occupied during free time, excellent capacitive touchscreen, lightweight, mod friendly.

here is a small analogy of city with respect to iphone.
its quite easy to drive(smooth navigation, touchscreen in case of iphone), has performance(UI of iphone), efficiency to boot and dare i say status(apple enjoy the same...people go ohlalala if they see iphone in your hand.) along with good a.s.s.(excellent warranty coverage by iphone), it has in built game(read acceleration, high speed performance aka engine) to keep us pre occupied during free time, excellent touchscreen as in materials used, lightweight to aid performance and is extremely mod friendly.

now it does have its disadvantage too, like ok-ok handling beaten by linea, good ride quality though beaten by linea, expensive spares, less features compared to competition. just as iphone has some. you will find people who hate city and some who love it. same is the case with iphone.

Loads of apps can be had on other better platforms as well. Touch screens are also available with other brands. Most other phones are available today are lightweight and mod friendly. And now to tell some negatives about the iPhone, low battery life, battery not changeable by user, low res camera, no stereo blue tooth, touch screens even though cool are frustrating to use. So more than anything else, its the bling factor that pull customers towards it in the same way Honda uses its brand image to sell cars.

so yes, people are ready to pay premium for good product, so why not price is higher and make most of it. after all they are here to business and earn profit. nothing wrong with that. with more and more competition Honda is bound to take action. Just like they did by upgrading interior of city to much better levels than before.

But the way things are being made out, it feels like the product became good because lot of people are buying it.

just my 2 cents and sorry for long post.
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Originally Posted by shrinivasap View Post
you like it or not, Fact is ANHC is accepted by mass market in that segment. I wouldn't buy the theory of "Honda" badge attached to it. If that is true, even JAZZ should have been a hit. Even that is from HONDA.

Fact is, in Jazz segment, Indian market found better VFM in other options like i20 etc. Hence it didn't work. But, in ANHC segment, it is a leader as people didn't see better VFM in other choices available."Marketing: The First selling of a product is done by advertising. Further selling is done by the product itself. Any further advertising are just reminders.

I would like to say the same comment about value as above.
"
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Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
Whatever said and done, when it comes to reliability, Honda scores over most of the players, both in India and abroad, a simple FACT, that can't be just brushed aside..if it ain't for that reliability, NASA won't be conducting studies on using Honda Built motors in the new Rover space vehicles for Mars.

Excuse me but are we talking about IC engines on MARS!!??

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Originally Posted by shamanth View Post
I think rattling is related to reliability, materials used in making the car. Why would it rattle if good technique and materials were used? As a company things should improve, Rattling was there for M800 that is ok, the same rattling is not acceptable in SX4 atleast.
Here is the definition of reliability from an engineering perspective :-Reliability can be defined as the probability that a component part, equipment, or system will satisfactorily perform its intended function under given circumstances, such as environmental conditions, limitations as to operating time, and frequency and thoroughness of maintenance for a specified period of time.(found by googling).

The part which might be making the noise might be performing its intended function at the same time. As long as a part and the combination of all the parts in a car performs its intended functionality, it can be termed as reliable. So making rattling noises cannot be concluded as an example of unreliability.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 23:54   #98
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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post

you can easily ignore it if you want mentioning it as one off case. but the point still remains valid and this is good for all brands including Honda and Toyota - The epitome of reliability.
I have seen a brand new Linea broken down on the road too. Mentioned it somewhere in the forum some time back. Not that I read too much into it, but Euro cars can only dream of the mass reliability of Japs. Its proven all over the world.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 23:58   #99
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Originally Posted by UKR View Post
Here is the definition of reliability from an engineering perspective :-Reliability can be defined as the probability that a component part, equipment, or system will satisfactorily perform its intended function under given circumstances, such as environmental conditions, limitations as to operating time, and frequency and thoroughness of maintenance for a specified period of time.(found by googling).

The part which might be making the noise might be performing its intended function at the same time. As long as a part and the combination of all the parts in a car performs its intended functionality, it can be termed as reliable. So making rattling noises cannot be concluded as an example of unreliability.
ROTFL! (Twenty Chars)
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Old 4th December 2009, 03:01   #100
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Originally Posted by UKR View Post
Loads of apps can be had on other better platforms as well. Touch screens are also available with other brands. Most other phones are available today are lightweight and mod friendly. And now to tell some negatives about the iPhone, low battery life, battery not changeable by user, low res camera, no stereo blue tooth, touch screens even though cool are frustrating to use. So more than anything else, its the bling factor that pull customers towards it in the same way Honda uses its brand image to sell cars.

so yes, people are ready to pay premium for good product, so why not price is higher and make most of it. after all they are here to business and earn profit. nothing wrong with that. with more and more competition Honda is bound to take action. Just like they did by upgrading interior of city to much better levels than before.

But the way things are being made out, it feels like the product became good because lot of people are buying it.
while i agree to some of your points i have to disagree with some.

It has been proved without doubt that market for after market apps is more in demand for iphone than windows platform and android platform. its expected that android platform will spawn more market apps than iphone. but thats future no one can predict that. if you have used iphone 3g, its much lighter than previous gen. comparable to others.

touchscreen of iphone is miles better than other phone. the reason being many windows based phone uses resistive touchscreen rather than capacitive. capacitive touchscreen has smoother touch than others. i have used those phones like 5800, n97, sony xperia, samsung solstice, impression among others. and trust me, iphone's interface and its touch is miles better than this.

low battery life is thing of past. it has been solved. even on my 2g i easily get 2 days with normal use. its better in 3g though. its debatable as it depends on how you use it. agree camera res is low but i as such don't use it. have a dedicated digi cam for use. stereo bluetooth is solved in 3gs fyi.

yes, it does have bling factor, but it is useful too.i forgot to mention it has gps, 3g too built in which is a boon for business users.

how people buy it, what do they think is again highly debatable and varies from nation to nation. so won't comment on that
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Old 4th December 2009, 08:33   #101
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@ UKR

I totally agree with you on almost all your points.

IMHO The biggest USP of Honda in India is this line: Its a HONDA saar!! sheer brand value.

Honda engines are technical marvels but the rest of the car is not.
I don't mean that its not good, but it ain't the best either.
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Old 4th December 2009, 09:43   #102
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dear maglev - then why did Jazz bomb? even that is from HONDA saar!!

Brand won't sell, a good product DO
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Old 4th December 2009, 10:03   #103
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Originally Posted by UKR View Post
But the way things are being made out, it feels like the product became good because lot of people are buying it.
well, may be. But does it ever occur to you that its the other way round? I mean - the most natural reason for a product to be popular is that it offers what the buyers want compared to other products - whether its brand, features, engine or anything else.

And we can keep on arguing about this: but get this : Your concept of value may not be the same as mine. But right now most people think (50K people in one year) they don't mind paying a little extra for a car if it offers what they want, don't rattle your bones in 2 years and don't rust in 6 months.

And if tomorrow a better car comes, the same folks will be more than willing to put their money there. If Toyota brings in Vios and offer better things in a good price, i am sure people will flock it. Thats the beauty of a capital market.
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Old 4th December 2009, 10:48   #104
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Originally Posted by maglev View Post
@ UKR
IMHO The biggest USP of Honda in India is this line: Its a HONDA saar!! sheer brand value.

Honda engines are technical marvels but the rest of the car is not.
I don't mean that its not good, but it ain't the best either.
What is bad in marketing one's brand in trying to sell a product? When you have a class leading engine (the best in its class), FE, reliability and appeal in ANHC, why wouldn't it sell? If they had to only use HONDA saar!without a good, desirable product, 50K would not be a number that will sell in a year! The consumer is no FOOL, my friend! Look at JAZZ!

BTW, within the ANHC segment, which other engine beats the iVTEC? don't think you can find one.. so, you know now, it is the best in that segment!

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Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
I have seen a brand new Linea broken down on the road too. Mentioned it somewhere in the forum some time back. Not that I read too much into it, but Euro cars can only dream of the mass reliability of Japs. Its proven all over the world.
there was a CNN report on the type of vehicles GM high officials were driving during the detriot crisis, and it was reported that 70% of them own/goes to work on a Toyota/Honda/Nissan.. that itself is a testament to the reliability of proof! American/Euro car makers have a decade to catch up with the Japs

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
So, you seem to think that anything that sells is good. Hmm. Good for you.

And @chevelle, I am glad I could enlighten you to the fact that Hondas also fall by the roadside.
Sorry SB, but I don't think you understand the dynamics of sales and its relationship with the product.. if a brand tries to distort facts and market it to misled, it might sell for a while, but won't sustain for long and the market would have its own way of dealing it.. if a product sells consistently over a period of time, then it says something about the product... good products, coupled with the brand image, sell on its own! It does not need hard macro-economics to understand that!

BTW, honda do fall by the roadside, but the probability of it happening is very less compared to others!

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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post

again see the last sentence where i have put a dash to Toyota and not Honda. I still feel Toyota is THE king of reliability. My benchmark is Toyota. In case your are comparing Suzuki with Honda, than without doubt it would be Honda.
Just for the information, reliability of Toyota worldwide has gone a beating in recent times, and has fared below Honda for 2-3 consecutive years..As major car makers put the same manufacturing processes in all units, it would also have its effect here too!

Quote:
............
Among automakers over all, Honda was at the top, with every Honda and Acura vehicle surveyed having average or better-than-average predicted reliability.
Toyota and Lexus models were right behind, with 98 percent of the models surveyed having average-or-better predicted reliability. The Lexus GS was the one Toyota model with below-average reliability.
............
Honda and Toyota Top Reliability Survey, but Ford Closes Gap - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com

The 10 Most Reliable Car Brands VS Your Preconceived Notions - The Consumerist


Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Very relevant question in the context of this thread. Thanks, man. You are really contributing to the discussion. Keep it up.

Really ? So who was it who said the following ? I posted just a few threads about Hondas leaving people stranded or manufacturing issues with City/Civic. I am sure there are much more out there. So, maybe you know now that this happens to all manufacturers, including the so-called epitomes.

And, I hope you are not really trying to hammer home your point by posting twice.
No offence SB, but I think you are the one who is really trying hard to hammer home your points... and most of them ain't in the context of this thread either! BTW, must have been like winning a trophy in trying so hard to find those few threads of Hondas leaving people stranded..

For good or bad, 50K of ANHC in the 1st year does speak something of the car, so, no point cribbing on why it sells that much number.. the market gives opportunity and judge every product in its own way, and what is good is what sells... so, high time to let go of the prejudice, and give credit where it is due..
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Old 4th December 2009, 11:31   #105
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1) Why IMHO Honda City 3rd Generation ( G3HC ) sold 50K units in one year:

a) Honda Image.
b) City brand name
c) Engine
d) Looks. I know they are subjective and I dont like G3HC looks very much. To me its like engineers were out of ideas, but general public thinks other way round.

The above points cover up the negatives of of G3HC :
e) GC. Well known issue and enough debate has been done IMHO.
f) Ride and Handling. Cars costing less give better ride and handling.
g) High cost of spares. IIRC, cost have gone up as compared to rivals.

Honda Image helps sell its cars. People have image of honda as ultimate complete package cars. I never believe in this.
City is now a very strong brand name just like Corolla, Esteem, etc.
City has a very nice motor that has VTEC capable of managing timing, lift and duration variations. Earlier all three were not combined. This is one of the best available from Honda. This is one of the reason why City sells.

2) Reliability as Honda USP.
A joke. A similar joke is Maruti offering less reliability than Honda. The king here is Toyota without doubt. Qualis, Innova motors run for 2 lakh+ kms. Toyota motors may not have highest output, but in real world they get the job done and they dont need drama like others.

About Maruti being stranded, its very sujective. A few reasons why we find Indian cars stranded :

h) Going to local mechanic who himself is not experienced or does not have sufficient knowledge of the car. We can include some ASC here.

i) Mods. People go to shops where there is no technical understanding for getting mods done. Definitely reliability is at loss.

j) Fake or substandard parts. Maruti 800 is the one to suffer here. I think we all are aware of substandard parts available and they are the ones sold to local mechanics. Trouble for reliability aspect. Can happen with any car now.

k) Lack of proper servicing. I have seen M800, Scorpio, Indica, etc. not serviced or even oil is not changed for around 15K kms. And they dont know a word about synthetic oil.

l) Lack of knowledge from people. Have you seen an owner adding oil to petrol in an i10 that he just took deliver of ? Similar extends to M800, A-star, Wagon R, Swift, etc. I have seen all this and I am sure we cannot expect reliability from these cars.

IMHO, all the five above reasons mentioned above, cars face issue with reliability.

I believe that all cars from Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai are very well reliable for atleast 1 lakh kms, provided they are not messed up. Honda is not a reliability king and neither is its usp.
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