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Old 4th December 2009, 11:47   #106
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
I believe that all cars from Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai are very well reliable for atleast 1 lakh kms, provided they are not messed up. Honda is not a reliability king and neither is its usp.
So you could have just said all the Japanese cars and Korean cars are reliable and the rest of them are not.

Suzuki & Mitsubishi are in the list and together. Hmm... Have you seen how solid is a 1 lakh + Kms run Mitsu? what about a 1 Lakh + kms run Suzuki?

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Old 4th December 2009, 12:02   #107
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Default Product Integrity

I would attribute the success of ANHC to something called 'product Integrity' which the ANHC seem to be scoring high.

Check this article on Harvard Business Review
The Power of Product Integrity - HBR.org

The Authors suggest that the poduct should have 'Internal Integrity' which demands that the various parts work well cohessivelly. An extreme example (in a negative sense) would be a car which has a weak engine but comes with a sports kit. Obviously the product lacks internal integrity.

Then there is 'external integrity' which includes how well the product fits the consumer needs and expectations, is the product in tune with what the customers expect from a particular brand etc. A korean car maker might make a excellent sports car but it may not find acceptance with the buyers as there may be a disconect with the expectation and the product outcome. Simillarly an economy based car trying to mimick a luxury brand may not go with the target audience.

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Old 4th December 2009, 12:29   #108
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Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
So you could have just said all the Japanese cars and Korean cars are reliable and the rest of them are not.

Suzuki & Mitsubishi are in the list and together. Hmm... Have you seen how solid is a 1 lakh + Kms run Mitsu? what about a 1 Lakh + kms run Suzuki?
Well, after reading through the threads ( one in particular I dont want to mention ) I can say, that Japs and now even Koreans are above others.

About 1 lakh+ kms Suzuki, well we have one at home. In lower gears, specially in city traffic, it can give shocks to many sedan with almost double sized engines. Another is around 39K which can teach lesson to new cars on ride and handling, FE, space, grace and maintenance.
My close relatives have 99K Wagon R used in A'bad and it still runs well.
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Old 4th December 2009, 12:37   #109
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Another is around 39K which can teach lesson to new cars on ride and handling, FE, space, grace and maintenance.
I'd just like to know which car is that...

We also had a 1L+ Suzuki (with a European Engine). What I liked to mention was, there is even a difference between a 1L covered Mitsu and a Suzuki. Forget about 1L kms, there is a difference in the solid feel between two new cars from these brands.

Last edited by clevermax : 4th December 2009 at 12:39.
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Old 4th December 2009, 12:41   #110
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Another is around 39K which can teach lesson to new cars on ride and handling, FE, space, grace and maintenance.
yeah, i would also like to know which wonder car this is.

There's no single car in Suzuki lineup now or past which can claim to be winner in all these parameters you specify.
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Old 4th December 2009, 13:01   #111
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Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
I'd just like to know which car is that...

We also had a 1L+ Suzuki (with a European Engine). What I liked to mention was, there is even a difference between a 1L covered Mitsu and a Suzuki. Forget about 1L kms, there is a difference in the solid feel between two new cars from these brands.
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Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
yeah, i would also like to know which wonder car this is.

There's no single car in Suzuki lineup now or past which can claim to be winner in all these parameters you specify.
i think he is referring to either swift or baleno. my bet on baleno as he owns one

off topic: my client here has a ford here that has run 2 lac miles and still counting. now is that reliability? partially yes and partially no, as we have to consider how much the person have spend on maintaining one for 2 lac miles and compare with same segment cars from other manufacturers.

Last edited by chevelle : 4th December 2009 at 13:03.
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Old 4th December 2009, 13:23   #112
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Sorry guys, I typed in a response intended for a different thread in this thread.

hence deleted it myself,

My apologies

Last edited by StarVegabond : 4th December 2009 at 13:27.
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Old 4th December 2009, 15:23   #113
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Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
ROTFL! (Twenty Chars)
You have my sympathies mate. I understand that this is the best you could do.
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Old 4th December 2009, 19:33   #114
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You have my sympathies mate. I understand that this is the best you could do.
No offence friend, but that post was so illogical I could only respond so.

Anyways.. folks continue to turn a blind eye to these:
  1. Any car, just because it is from Honda will not sell - Jazz (and CR-V) are best examples. But see that i20 is taking the crown in that segment - because i20 seems to offer the best value in the premium hatchback segment though it is priced much higher than Punto etc.
  2. Until Altis was launched with a long list of features and at a price much lower than Civic, there was no competition to Civic. Cruze is already down to 500 (from 800 in the first month).
  3. Checkout Accord. Agreed Superb outsold Accord for a few months this year. But have people also noticed that Superb expanded the segment? Accord held on to its numbers with or without competition.
  4. Now the City - it is in its 3rd generation - with each new generation City came with a completely revamped like it or hate it looks, but it continues to sell is such huge volumes. In fact, with every new generation, sales is even better. That is how ANHC has crossed 50K under an year. Just goes to show that despite fierce arguments against City by some folks here, there is no worthy competitor to City in that segment. There is no other car in the C+ segment which crossed 4K sales in a single month, while City has managed that for several months this year.
  5. Above all, beat this. City has no Diesel variant and it was launched with average interiors (compared to NHC) until recently (Sep '09 onwards, it has improved).
So folks, instead of parroting City sells because of Honda badge, pause for a moment and check it out personally, speak to someone who owns it, talk to someone who recommends it, ask questions to someone who has bought his second or may be even third Honda.
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Old 5th December 2009, 00:27   #115
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post

What does reliability as in "not being stranded" have to do with fancy electronics ? Does the City having power-windows means that the chances of it breaking down are more than an M800 which has manual windows ? Or does having VTec means the car is more prone to breakdown ? Then that is not good enough technology.

I don't know guys, but after debating reliability, now you guys are going into intangible and unrelated things like "feel", "fancy electronics" and stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
If you put an SX4 & NHC side-by-side and compare the cars on quality of materials used or workmanship, I don't think there is much of a fight there - the NHC would be the easy winner. But that was not what we were discussing - the whole discussion was about a car leaving you stranded and I don't see rattling being important in this context.

True, the definition is narrow - I did google for an fitting definition, but could not find one. And like I said, the whole discussion was about cars leaving you stranded and I don't think rattles can leave you stranded.

Lol, this is becoming a very interesting discussion and i have already seen some pretty sweeping arguments. Although i am no honda guy but i think i will take sides this time.
Sir, You are not debating reliability. Rather the debate for you is being 'stranded in the middle'. If thats the only issue then i agree with you. Period. However here point of interest is 'reliability' and it comes in various guises. Being stranded in the middle is one aspect of it.
Now, honestly i dont expect a maruti to strand me in the middle. its just one of those things that can happen to any car, its only that some brands have more stringent quality checks and controls ( honda, toyota?) than others (Maruti?) which effectively reduces the probability of a failure due to a fan belt, alternator, slave cylinder etc malfunction ( = increased reliability). Get the drift ?
which brings me to a fitting definition of 'reliability' which UKR found through, guess what, googling.

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Originally Posted by UKR View Post
Here is the definition of reliability from an engineering perspective :-Reliability can be defined as the probability that a component part, equipment, or system will satisfactorily perform its intended function under given circumstances, such as environmental conditions, limitations as to operating time, and frequency and thoroughness of maintenance for a specified period of time.(found by googling).

Now if the something in my car is making noise, which it is not supposed to, then it is not offering me the satisfactory standard of service. plain and simple. It is a reliability issue for me. if engines were the only parameters of reliability i would go buy a Logan and wouldn't worry if rains soaked the damn carpet inside.
This is where Honda scores. It is a niggle free brand. Some major issue is another thing, in that case you just get it over with and move on.
By the way my friend calls his swift the "rattle snake". He is big on discovery channel these days. He loves his car though.

In my opinion if one can leave aside one's cribbing about price, premium etc, Honda generally provides a slightly easier ownership experience (not much hassles overall). And its in general terms so please dont find a few threads and shove it up my face lol. No offence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
It is not just the ANHC that sold well. The NHC was the segment leader and before that the OHC did pretty well. And I don't think this thread is to discuss why they sell well, because anyone who has spent a few days on the forum can search and find the umpteen number of threads which will enlighten you as to why they sell. Do we need to do that all over again, just because you are not aware ?

And same goes for why the Baleno did not sell. Use search in times of doubt and you would get your answers, instead of dragging irrelevant queries into threads that have nothing to do with them.

So, you seem to think that anything that sells is good. Hmm. Good for you.
firstly i do think that anything that sells by popular demand deserves a second look, I might myself buy it (I know its good for me ).
and at the same time i do believe that not everything that doesn't sell is necessarily bad. Baleno for instance.

secondly this thread IS about why they sell well (check the title, a 'why' is inevitable), thats how the reliability issue came up in the first place. though it got converted to 'stranded in the middle' is another issue.

Honda does most things well (not talking about the pricing ) or it stays well above average and most importantly it never gives you a strong reason to reject it unlike other brands (ex- Skoda, FIAT: After Sales, Maruti: looks "baleno for instance") That is why it has succeeded in our market. Not because of any special marketing strategy as some believe. ofcourse the word of mouth did help.

That takes care of the 'why' part, & this is for those guys who just might be interested to read my take on it. cheers : )
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Old 5th December 2009, 07:14   #116
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I have never used or owned a city but I think 2 deciding factors when it comes to the Honda city is the engine which delivers both on the power/FE and the other being the amount of leg space available in the rear bench.
Toyota and Honda are definitely more of a premium brand compared to Maruti however you still get the Japanese reliability.
Regarding reliability I don't doubt any of Japanese cars because of the kind of torture these cars go through in the Middle east. Cars which run at 120kmh(people drive at these speeds because the law is very strict) at 50C on daily basis without giving problems have proven their point.
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Old 5th December 2009, 13:21   #117
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Post Logic behind the logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
No offence friend, but that post was so illogical I could only respond so.

I hope you don't want to undermine your integrity by simply blurting out words without giving reasons for your conviction.

Anyways.. folks continue to turn a blind eye to these:

1. Any car, just because it is from Honda will not sell - Jazz (and CR-V) are best examples. But see that i20 is taking the crown in that segment - because i20 seems to offer the best value in the premium hatchback segment though it is priced much higher than Punto etc.

So what is your point? I beg to differ if your are trying to say that Jazz is a bad car. It is not selling because it is not worth the dough that Honda is demanding and not because it is a bad car. And again you seem to be using the 'value' word without saying what is contributing to the value.

2. Until Altis was launched with a long list of features and at a price much lower than Civic, there was no competition to Civic. Cruze is already down to 500 (from 800 in the first month).

You are not clear on this as well, but from what I understand, you are saying that Toyota had to launch the Altis with countless features and lower price to dethrone the under featured Civic and even after this Civic is doing relatively good numbers. So what is working here for the Civic? You could say it provides value. What is that value? May be the engine, the drive train, hassle free ownership, quality, reliability?But Altis could be equated to Civic on these parameters. So what else is working for Civic. You can see that you yourself is saying that Honda brand image is working for Honda.

3. Checkout Accord. Agreed Superb outsold Accord for a few months this year. But have people also noticed that Superb expanded the segment? Accord held on to its numbers with or without competition.

Same as above reply.


4. Now the City - it is in its 3rd generation - with each new generation City came with a completely revamped like it or hate it looks, but it continues to sell is such huge volumes. In fact, with every new generation, sales is even better. That is how ANHC has crossed 50K under an year. Just goes to show that despite fierce arguments against City by some folks here, there is no worthy competitor to City in that segment. There is no other car in the C+ segment which crossed 4K sales in a single month, while City has managed that for several months this year.

To summarize, you are saying that City is good because it is doing good numbers and it is selling good goes to show that there are no worthy competitors. This extraordinarily logical statement was not expected from a self appointed judge of logic. Only thing I have to say here is that sales number are not concrete proof that a vehicle is good or bad, and sales figures alone cannot be used to conclude that there are no worthy competitors to it.


5. Above all, beat this. City has no Diesel variant and it was launched with average interiors (compared to NHC) until recently (Sep '09 onwards, it has improved).

Same as reply to 2.

So folks, instead of parroting City sells because of Honda badge, pause for a moment and check it out personally, speak to someone who owns it, talk to someone who recommends it, ask questions to someone who has bought his second or may be even third Honda.

No offense to you buddy, you have the right to voice your opinion and thoughts, but I don't think the folks on this forum need your logical advices on what to say/do and what not to say/do.
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Old 5th December 2009, 13:36   #118
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Altis is equated to Civic on engine and drive train? Have you even driven both these cars?

The public doesn't give a damn about what we think. Neither does Honda. But Honda (or rather, whoever runs the City projct) knows what the public is thinking and delivers smack on target, every time. No use crying about it - that's how it is.

Last edited by ImmortalZ : 5th December 2009 at 13:39.
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Old 5th December 2009, 14:25   #119
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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Altis is equated to Civic on engine and drive train? Have you even driven both these cars?

The public doesn't give a damn about what we think. Neither does Honda. But Honda (or rather, whoever runs the City projct) knows what the public is thinking and delivers smack on target, every time. No use crying about it - that's how it is.
Thanks man; it is quite hard to stay sane with some posts here
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Old 5th December 2009, 14:55   #120
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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Altis is equated to Civic on engine and drive train? Have you even driven both these cars?
1) Civic engine manages timing, lift and duration whereas altis manages timing.
But that does not mean Civic's motor is far better than Altis. A drive in bumper to bumper traffic proves the point.
Overall, as far as powertrain goes, Civic and Altis can be compared. Bottom end of Altis is much better than Civic. Civic has good top end, but Altis has a better spread of punch.
At the end of the day, VVTi engine of altis is better to use than i-VTEC IMHO. Civic has only great top end, but altis has fantastic bottom end, good midrange and good top end.

BTW, I have driven both.

A thread here for this : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...on-thread.html (Variable Valve Timing discussion thread)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
yeah, i would also like to know which wonder car this is.

There's no single car in Suzuki lineup now or past which can claim to be winner in all these parameters you specify.
Baleno. Drive one for long to believe me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
I'd just like to know which car is that...

We also had a 1L+ Suzuki (with a European Engine). What I liked to mention was, there is even a difference between a 1L covered Mitsu and a Suzuki. Forget about 1L kms, there is a difference in the solid feel between two new cars from these brands.
Car is Baleno.
1,00,000+ ksm GV from Suzuki feels quite solid. I think we need to bring in price points too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
i think he is referring to either swift or baleno. my bet on baleno as he owns one
Yes, you guessed it right, I was talking about Baleno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
No offence friend, but that post was so illogical I could only respond so.
C has crossed 50K under an year. Just goes to show that despite fierce arguments against City by some folks here, there is no worthy competitor to City in that segment. There is no other car in the C+ segment which crossed 4K sales in a single month, while City has managed that for several months this year
Sales of G3HC need not prove its best car. By those standards, Alto is the best car, right.
G3HC sells for many reasons and not just value. There are others delivering better value.
Sales are not perfect indication of
a) highest technological advantage.
b) Best value.
Note that this changes from segment to segment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashish.uno View Post
Now if the something in my car is making noise, which it is not supposed to, then it is not offering me the satisfactory standard of service. plain and simple. It is a reliability issue for me. if engines were the only parameters of reliability i would go buy a Logan and wouldn't worry if rains soaked the damn carpet inside.
This is where Honda scores. It is a niggle free brand. Some major issue is another thing, in that case you just get it over with and move on.
By the way my friend calls his swift the "rattle snake". He is big on discovery channel these days. He loves his car though.
A lot depends on how and where the cars are used. And niggle free brand is too big a statement. I have heard of fuel pump issues in Accord also. Nobody is perfect and good as you think. Honda is not king as far as niggle free car goes.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 5th December 2009 at 15:11.
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