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Old 16th December 2009, 21:17   #16
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A Indian Manufactured can be repaired/serviced almost any where in India But not a Foreign Manufactured. Maintaining Indian car is more cheap than foreign.
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Old 16th December 2009, 21:28   #17
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Originally Posted by arin_12 View Post
A Indian Manufactured can be repaired/serviced almost any where in India But not a Foreign Manufactured. Maintaining Indian car is more cheap than foreign.
But at times it can be a Pain, Examples: A lot of Tata Safaris, Indicas and some Scorpios.
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Old 16th December 2009, 21:32   #18
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Originally Posted by arin_12 View Post
A Indian Manufactured can be repaired/serviced almost any where in India But not a Foreign Manufactured. Maintaining Indian car is more cheap than foreign.
Strictly speaking, almost all of the cars we buy are 'manufactured' in India - except CBUs.

I guess you are talking about HM (tech carried over from Austin - and keeping it unchanged from the fifties) or Maruti (JV with suzuki) or TATA (the closest one could come to a TOTALLY Indian car company) or Mahindra (early JV with jeep, later jv with renault)?

If you speak of service stations - MSIL followed by HMIL followed by TMIL leads the pack. So INDIAN manufacturer comes third.

This is indeed a very bad advertisement for India and TATA as they trail 2 foreign car manufacturers (one jv , one standalone) in service centers.
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Old 16th December 2009, 22:23   #19
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Kudos to the thread starter. I have personally been thinking of starting such a thread for some time.

But, My purview of starting such a thread was to highlight how most other countries tend to be patriotic towards their auto manufacturers regardless of quality or competition. On the other hand, We Indians tend to think otherwise. For us, everything starts upside down.

And such a scenario has a spiraling effect on Indian automobile industry. Everyone starts somewhere and makes way upwards and this growth takes time. Same for Indian manufacturers like TATA and MAHINDRA.

I agree that the two brand do not really count as exceptional in quality or for that matter technology. But, they have started somewhere and growth in both the companies has been exceptional. And the only way we can expect these brands to be better is by supporting them.

Look at some examples:

US - GM, Ford (constitute majority of sales in country)
Germany - BMW, Audi, Merc, VW (Once again leader)
France - Renault (Leader, Once again)
Czech - Skoda (No different story here)
even, Romania - DACIA LOGAN (yes, the same Logan)

Now put into perspective. LOGAN (without any offense to car) comes no way close to Indigo Manza. so if Logan can be a leader in its country, why not Indigo Manza. And we don't even want to talk about service of DACIA.

The reason are numerous:

1. No support from State / Central Governments.

2. The German Chancellor convoy is filled with Mercs and BMW. US President has GM subsidiary vehicles. Indian President / Prime Minister ??? At one point Amby was state car but these days all premiers like to have BMW / Mercs. So much so for patriotism within government.

3. The very Vox-Populi of India. We like to have everything served on silver platter. We want the very best for ourselves and who wouldn't want such a thing but as I already mentioned, we need to be part of the growth cycle to reach the acceptance level but, sadly that is not the case!

(I sincerely apologise if I have offended anyone. )

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Originally Posted by blackasta View Post
If you speak of service stations - MSIL followed by HMIL followed by TMIL leads the pack. So INDIAN manufacturer comes third.

This is indeed a very bad advertisement for India and TATA as they trail 2 foreign car manufacturers (one jv , one standalone) in service centers.
Actually, TATA has more service centres than Hyundai especially as you move into Rural Areas. Infact, MSIL, TATA & Mahindra rule the roost in rural India. So while TATA or Mahindra may not have many service centres in metros, they have better reach in far spread parts of India.
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Old 16th December 2009, 22:32   #20
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Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
Actually, TATA has more service centres than Hyundai especially as you move into Rural Areas. Infact, MSIL, TATA & Mahindra rule the roost in rural India. So while TATA or Mahindra may not have many service centres in metros, they have better reach in far spread parts of India.
I guess one reason for Hyundai having less centers and Tata having more centers in rural areas is due to the fact that Hyundai does not make utility/transport vehicles while Tata is heavily into it. But that still does not justify the lesser number of tata workshops around in cities, especially when Tata workshops are to service all tata+fiat cars around!
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Old 17th December 2009, 10:14   #21
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M&M recently tried to give better / new technology features. TATA given best VFM cars.
On engine front looks TATA decided to have all engines from Fiat (read Indica vista, Manza), do they continue to focus on developing next generation TATA engines? I doubt.
Videocon is one who keep going diversified from their core business but I have not seen then in auto. TATA shown great value by delivering nano, which also assures that Indian industry can build great products in auto. If get some new player from Indian industry in auto will be great.
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Old 17th December 2009, 11:42   #22
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Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post

Fortunately or Unfortunately, Indian Government Babus have not thought about Automobiles being Strategic.

Private sector only focuses on ease of doing that business and or the fat margins. Unfortunately Automobiles does not belong to easy business category.
Maruthi was started by the GOI and till recently Maruthi was run by the government (before Suzuki took the control).

Whatever improvements we have had in terms of quality & reliability in the Indian auto industry, the credit goes to Maruthi
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Old 17th December 2009, 12:12   #23
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Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
But, My purview of starting such a thread was to highlight how most other countries tend to be patriotic towards their auto manufacturers regardless of quality or competition. On the other hand, We Indians tend to think otherwise. For us, everything starts upside down.

I think there is a reason for that. Till foreign layers came in (Maruti / Hundai) Car market was pretty much dormant.

With Entry of foreign players, we saw courteous sales + service for the first time.

For my Premier Padmini, visiting a service station used to be like visiting a Govt office. That was mostly due to attitude of staff. When I visited a Maruti outlet for sales and later service, experience was like night and day.
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Old 17th December 2009, 14:41   #24
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While agreeing on the fact that Indians have the tendency for aceepting and appreciating Non-Indian cars but what drives this tendency?

Govt. has been protecting Indian auto companies by still keeping 120% import duty giving the Indian manufacturers a price space since independance.

Indian major car companies Mahindras, TATAs, Birlas , premier have an deplorable lethargy and poor ethics of not giving what customer needs but what they have at a much higher prices to us Indians.

Even the latest Sumo Grande MKii reveals this lethargy of and Indian Auto major TATA very vividly.

The Ex show room price of Gx version Sumo Grande / E6 version Xylo is 7.5lakhs .
Now, if you remove 20% salestaxes base price will be 6.25 lakhs which is equivalent of USD 14,000/- and for this price much better properly engineered vehicle will be available internationally.

While India being a 50% cheap labour abundant country,
Why Indian auto companies TATA/Mahindra are not able to keep their manufacturing costs low and enhance product features and quality keeping the international car quality as their duty bound goal to offer to Indians?

Indian auto companies does not have patriotism to offer Indians best features. Examples are plenty. Indica Vista Ignis is offered to South Africa first.

Indian companies treat its patronizing Indian domestic customers with bad discrimination and take indian citizens for a ride. This leads to non-indian car companies like Honda/Hyundai/Toyota to suck indians by extreme profiteeing pricing practices.

Indian Govt. doesnot WANT to check the profiteering of non-indian car manufacturers as they lobby the politicians and pay bribes.

Indian car buyers are actually victims of non patriotic Indian car companies like Tata/Mahindra/HM/Premier and corrupt Indian politician.

Indian car buyers pay 20 to 30% more premium price for a poorly engineered Indian car from any Indian car manufacturer be it Tata's Indica Vista /Manza/Grande/Safari (Or ) Mahindra's Bolero/Logan/Scorpio/Xylo (or) HM's Ambassador.

The original intention of keeping high 120% import duty on cars was to give time space to Indian enterprenuers to establish their ventures and roll out competitive cars and thus providing employment to Indian citizen.

But now even after 62 years of Indian Freedom the policies like high 120% import duty are enduring with WRONG vested lobbying interests of Indian auto manufacturers and Indian corrupt politicians to keep genuine Indian car buyers captive cash cows feeding them perennially.

Patriotic Attitude of Indian auto comapnies, and thier genuine business ethics are key for competant Indian cars to emerge.

Of course awareness of Indian buyers and rejecting exploitatively priced/under featured auto products will make the erring Indian auto companies to fall in line with Genuine automotive manufacturing and selling practices in India like the developed countries.

Last edited by harimakesh : 17th December 2009 at 14:44.
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Old 17th December 2009, 21:13   #25
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Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post
While agreeing on the fact that Indians have the tendency for aceepting and appreciating Non-Indian cars but what drives this tendency?

Govt. has been protecting Indian auto companies by still keeping 120% import duty giving the Indian manufacturers a price space since independance.

The Import duty on Cars is very high not because Government wants to protect Indian Auto Cos but because most imported cars are bought by affluent people and it is a very good way to milk people who anyways have hordes of cash.

Indian Companies protection would be something like a certain discount on taxation for wholly owned Indian companies as opposed to JVs (Maruti-Suzuki, Honda - Siel, Mahindra - Renault) or Subsidiaries (Hyundai Motors India Limited, BMW India)

Such a scheme would benefit companies like Tata Motors Limited, and Mahindra and Mahindra Limited.

Such a scheme would not be bad for government either. Share of profits from JVs and subsidiaries is routed overseas to either Mother company or Foreign partner thereby creating a loss of cash for India. On the other hand, Indian cos re-invest all their money back into India.


Indian major car companies Mahindras, TATAs, Birlas , premier have an deplorable lethargy and poor ethics of not giving what customer needs but what they have at a much higher prices to us Indians.

Even the latest Sumo Grande MKii reveals this lethargy of and Indian Auto major TATA very vividly.

How bout Indigo Manza and Indica Vista. Also, How bout Nano which has garnered appreciation just about everywhere and not just in India. No lethargy there. Even Mahindra has moved leaps and bounds since their JV with Jeep.

The Ex show room price of Gx version Sumo Grande / E6 version Xylo is 7.5lakhs .
Now, if you remove 20% salestaxes base price will be 6.25 lakhs which is equivalent of USD 14,000/- and for this price much better properly engineered vehicle will be available internationally.

Any car sold in India has a tax linkage of approximately 40% and not 20% namely:
Sales Tax/ VAT - 12.5% - 16%
CST - 2%
Octroi / Entry Tax - 1%
Excise Duty - 20%

Here we are not even taking into account Taxes on Profits, Taxes to suppliers and third party vendors, and Taxes on Raw Materials. What you would end up is that more than half the cost of car has been paid in taxes. Then you have profits for Vendors, Manufacturers, Supplies, Logistics, Dealer, etc.

Add to it registration charges borne by the customer. So, it is not like a auto company makes all the money by fleecing customers.

On the other hand, A foreign JV or subsidiary has the advantage in many ways:

1. Lower R&D Costs. You are basically bringing a car design, making few changes and putting it up for sale in India. Any person related to this industry or any manufacturing sector would agree that R&D costs for any company are substantial part of per car cost. M&M or TATA have to start from scratch here and infact, taking into account their current stage of development, more often or not many R&D projects end up on roadblocks due to various reasons.

2. Experienced Management. You have extremely tested procedures in place from developed countries which is easier to implement.

3. Better Technology. Once again what you get is tried and tested and developed to much stringent environments. (FIAT Multijet, For Example)

4. Hordes of cash. Come to think of it, M&M and TATA are still trying to make ends meet as opposed to much established JVs with a big brother's hand somewhere overseas. It is important for TATA & M&M to make every product work. They can't just scrap a car because it didn't tickle some persons fancy. They really can't afford it. (example, Sumo Grande)


While India being a 50% cheap labour abundant country,
Why Indian auto companies TATA/Mahindra are not able to keep their manufacturing costs low and enhance product features and quality keeping the international car quality as their duty bound goal to offer to Indians?

Low cost of manufacturing applies not just to TATA and M&M. Even Hyundai, Maruti and Ford manufacture here. Infact, they are milking India's resources by producing Cars India which are not on retail in India and selling them overseas.

Indian auto companies does not have patriotism to offer Indians best features. Examples are plenty. Indica Vista Ignis is offered to South Africa first.

Not true. Vista Ignis has not been introduced in India due to demand (or lack of it). Even though Indica Vista has great sales figures, it hasn't really sold that many in its top variant (Aura). So, it was not feasible for TATA. It is a case of demand and supply. Indians buy Indian Car - Indian manufacturer provides better Indian Cars.

Indian companies treat its patronizing Indian domestic customers with bad discrimination and take indian citizens for a ride. This leads to non-indian car companies like Honda/Hyundai/Toyota to suck indians by extreme profiteeing pricing practices.

Discrimination? They only have Indians to bank on, really. And case in point, It is us people who take our cars for granted. Tavera with hardly any features is highest selling MPV even as Xylo and Grande are over 1L cheaper! Shocking!

Indian Govt. doesnot WANT to check the profiteering of non-indian car manufacturers as they lobby the politicians and pay bribes.

Indian car buyers are actually victims of non patriotic Indian car companies like Tata/Mahindra/HM/Premier and corrupt Indian politician.

Jaago Re!

Indian car buyers pay 20 to 30% more premium price for a poorly engineered Indian car from any Indian car manufacturer be it Tata's Indica Vista /Manza/Grande/Safari (Or ) Mahindra's Bolero/Logan/Scorpio/Xylo (or) HM's Ambassador.

20% - 30% Premium! Last time I checked, Indian Cars provided Value for Money if nothing else! LOL! Safari is 8L - 12L, Same for Scorpio. What bout Ford Endeavour ?

The original intention of keeping high 120% import duty on cars was to give time space to Indian enterprenuers to establish their ventures and roll out competitive cars and thus providing employment to Indian citizen.

Not Really. It is to earn money from people who anyways have lots of cash and hence able to afford to expensive imported cars. Come to think it, these cars were never cheap in the first place.

But now even after 62 years of Indian Freedom the policies like high 120% import duty are enduring with WRONG vested lobbying interests of Indian auto manufacturers and Indian corrupt politicians to keep genuine Indian car buyers captive cash cows feeding them perennially.

Even countries like UK and USA have high import taxes for overseas vehicles. A Ferrari has 50% excess taxation in UK. Yes they milk anyways rich people, but they also serve a purpose. Had their been no duty on imported cars, would VW establish such a large scale project in Chakan? Would BMW have an assembly unit in India? Most probably Not.

Patriotic Attitude of Indian auto comapnies, and thier genuine business ethics are key for competant Indian cars to emerge.

Nano is a good example of Indian companies dedication to better products for masses in India. For that matter, Bolero even with all the rough edges, provides to the needs of mass rural public.

As far as Business ethics are concerned, Once again Nano is a good Example because it is widely accepted that the car has least profits but it is still very much in the market. Secondly, if TATA had flawed ethics, they would not have shifted from WB to Gujarat. And no points for guessing which corporates were funding Mamta Banerjee for such a mass movement.

It costed over 1.5Cr daily for this apparent movement by Mamata Banerjee. Obviously, one doesn't expect her to bear the costs personally.


Of course awareness of Indian buyers and rejecting exploitatively priced/under featured auto products will make the erring Indian auto companies to fall in line with Genuine automotive manufacturing and selling practices in India like the developed countries.
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Old 17th December 2009, 21:27   #26
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@ akhilesh51

"As far as Business ethics are concerned, Once again Nano is a good Example because it is widely accepted that the car has least profits but it is still very much in the market. Secondly, if TATA had flawed ethics, they would not have shifted from WB to Gujarat. And no points for guessing which corporates were funding Mamta Banerjee for such a mass movement.

It costed over 1.5Cr daily for this apparent movement by Mamata Banerjee. Obviously, one doesn't expect her to bear the costs personally. "


These words can get you in trouble buddy - lolz!
Obviously the 'people's movement' against the 'tyrannical Tata' was funded by the 'people' themselves!
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Old 19th December 2009, 12:56   #27
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Any car sold in India has a tax linkage of approximately 40% and not 20% namely:
Sales Tax/ VAT - 12.5% - 16%
CST - 2%
Octroi / Entry Tax - 1%
Excise Duty - 20%


40% taxes paid for each car sold in India??
Failing to understand the logic Why on top of it again 8-10% charged as road taxes

while paying such high taxes still as Indian buyers we are asking car manufacturers for 200mm GC with their cars to handle pot holdes and speed breaker bumpers

Tata's Nano singur to Gujarat shifting business ethics is notable.
I agree TATa has improved in its Manza and Vista efforts. But TATA mulling to keep 17 lakhs price target for Xover is outrageous.

100% indian car manufacturers must negotiate to get special consolidated 15% nett tax+custom duty frame as their profits are reinvested in India . This will help TATA & M&M cars to be more appealing in prices.

At the same time 100% indian car companies must escalate their product quality, fit and finish to improve and match with international players.

TATA & Mahindra Volunteering to Offer ABS as standard /option on all cars will improve the scene.

TATA & Mahindra offering 5 years /200,000 kms warranty like Hyundai offerings in the US will help gaining trust of customers.

Tata & Mahindra must constantly negotiate with govt to get the special 15% net taxes for 100% indian companies.
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Old 19th December 2009, 13:46   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
Automotive Business is Heavy Investment, Technology Focussed, High Customer Centric, Highly Regulated, Labour-Automation Centric, Low (er) margin business. Modern Indian enterprises are more comfortable with Low investment, Low risk, Monopolistic, High margin businesses

Hence we are not seeing too many Indian companies investing in Automobile Sector.
+1 to that..

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Originally Posted by mrkanitkar View Post
If someone follow great process & vision can make it in just few years. Sonata, M&M are not in passenger cars segment. M&M has only one car & that's all from Renault.
Apart from TATA, we need some Indian company in auto.
Why not "YOU" be that someone sir, to follow great process & vision

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
Fortunately or Unfortunately, Indian Government Babus have not thought about Automobiles being Strategic.

Private sector only focuses on ease of doing that business and or the fat margins. Unfortunately Automobiles does not belong to easy business category.
Very true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post
Now, if you remove 20% salestaxes base price will be 6.25 lakhs which is equivalent of USD 14,000/- and for this price much better properly engineered vehicle will be available internationally.

Sir, how do you arrive @ 20% - Any pointers


While India being a 50% cheap labour abundant country,
Why Indian auto companies TATA/Mahindra are not able to keep their manufacturing costs low and enhance product features and quality keeping the international car quality as their duty bound goal to offer to Indians?

Its easy to say that, isnt it?


Indian companies treat its patronizing Indian domestic customers with bad discrimination and take indian citizens for a ride.

This leads to non-indian car companies like Honda/Hyundai/Toyota to suck indians by extreme profiteeing pricing practices.

I agree that Honda and Toyota are overpriced but not Hyundai


Indian car buyers are actually victims of non patriotic Indian car companies like Tata/Mahindra/HM/Premier and corrupt Indian politician.

Indian car buyers pay 20 to 30% more premium price for a poorly engineered Indian car from any Indian car manufacturer be it Tata's Indica Vista /Manza/Grande/Safari (Or ) Mahindra's Bolero/Logan/Scorpio/Xylo (or) HM's Ambassador.

Sir, how do you say that?

The original intention of keeping high 120% import duty on cars was to give time space to Indian enterprenuers to establish their ventures and roll out competitive cars and thus providing employment to Indian citizen.

But now even after 62 years of Indian Freedom the policies like high 120% import duty are enduring with WRONG vested lobbying interests of Indian auto manufacturers and Indian corrupt politicians to keep genuine Indian car buyers captive cash cows feeding them perennially.

Patriotic Attitude of Indian auto comapnies, and thier genuine business ethics are key for competant Indian cars to emerge.

Of course awareness of Indian buyers and rejecting exploitatively priced/under featured auto products will make the erring Indian auto companies to fall in line with Genuine automotive manufacturing and selling practices in India like the developed countries.

Sir, strong statements Indeed
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Old 19th December 2009, 15:55   #29
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Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
But, My purview of starting such a thread was to highlight how most other countries tend to be patriotic towards their auto manufacturers regardless of quality or competition. On the other hand, We Indians tend to think otherwise. For us, everything starts upside down.


Look at some examples:

US - GM, Ford (constitute majority of sales in country)
Germany - BMW, Audi, Merc, VW (Once again leader)
France - Renault (Leader, Once again)
Czech - Skoda (No different story here)
even, Romania - DACIA LOGAN (yes, the same Logan)
Any basis on your statement in bold above? In the list prepared by yourself can you please let us know which company is the leader regardless of quality or competition? Please don't make baseless statements.

When am spending 6L of my hard earned money on a car don't expect any patriotism here. Is this a socialisitc era or what? No offence dude, if a car is good people buy it, if it's not people don't buy it. It's country of origin is immaterial. Period.

Upwards of 10L it does I feel;we'll have to wait for the Indicruz to break that now

P.S: This is like a fwd mail I got, don't buy colgate;buy babool. You gotta be kidding me.
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Old 19th December 2009, 16:41   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post
100% indian car manufacturers must negotiate to get special consolidated 15% nett tax+custom duty frame as their profits are reinvested in India . This will help TATA & M&M cars to be more appealing in prices.

At the same time 100% indian car companies must escalate their product quality, fit and finish to improve and match with international players.
The Government could actually put a condition on the special tax benefit as mentioned by asking such companies (TATA, M&M) to actually invest the money saved into R&D facilities, Quality Assurance procedures ONLY.

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Any basis on your statement in bold above? In the list prepared by yourself can you please let us know which company is the leader regardless of quality or competition? Please don't make baseless statements.

When am spending 6L of my hard earned money on a car don't expect any patriotism here. Is this a socialisitc era or what? No offence dude, if a car is good people buy it, if it's not people don't buy it. It's country of origin is immaterial. Period.

P.S: This is like a fwd mail I got, don't buy colgate;buy babool. You gotta be kidding me.
I am sorry if I my comments came across as some sort of Socialist propaganda.

Every customer obviously has the right to buy a car that suits his/her needs and if such a car be of a foreign make, it is fine.

Problem actually is when people completely discard Indian manufacturers while selecting cars and such a perception is wrong. Compare all cars including Indian cars and still if some other car fits your bill, so be it.

On numerous occasions, I have heard people saying that they only buy Japanese cars or German Cars or that Indian cars are just terrible. Such a generalization is wrong. Just few weeks back in this very forum, a member slammed Indigo Manza as a vehicle 'no Team-BHPian would buy', Why? The car is great, it has good features, One of the most renowned engines that too in its latest avatar. Why and Why? because it is a TATA. Shame!
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