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Old 6th March 2009, 17:10   #331
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Originally Posted by prashanthyr View Post
On my way to office, I saw a LR Freelander - the starting landrover and a thought struck me. Why would Tata invest in a new Safari when they have a readily available replacement vehicle for the SUV segment in house? Simply concentrate on the Cross Over (whatever it might be called) and introduce the freelander when the time comes to replace the Safari. They can build it in India to keep the price low and you get a first class vehicle without duplicating the investment.
You can keep the Freelander mate. We have enough Fords in India. Hope the Tata's launch the Defender first...
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Old 6th March 2009, 19:37   #332
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@4x4 addict
By Ford, if you mean Endeavour, its no where near the same league as the Freelander. This small LR is a far more accomplished vehicle, its on road dynamics are superb and by far its the most capable among all the soft roaders when the going gets tough. It also has a 5 star NCAP safety rating. Its actually SUVs like the CRV, Ford Kuga, RAV4 it competes against and in most reviews it has come out on tops.
The Endeavour on the other hand is based on the Ford ranger pick up (similar to Xenon) and is sold primarily in markets where two things are primary Price and Size.
That said if the Free Lander could be localised and made in India, priced at around 10-12 lacs (diesel please, dont do a CRV) Im pretty sure it will do well. A perfect world.
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Old 6th March 2009, 20:09   #333
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@4x4 addict
By Ford, if you mean Endeavour, its no where near the same league as the Freelander.
No. What I mean is that the Freelander is a re badged Ford Escape. Defender is the only true Landrover left after the Ford Acquisition. The rest are put together from the Ford parts bin. The Ford Escape btw also had 5 Start NCAP safety rating..

My point is that if you want a Land Rover get a real one. Don't be fooled into buying a Ford with some modifications and a Landrover badge slapped on it.

Last edited by 4x4addict : 6th March 2009 at 20:11.
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Old 6th March 2009, 20:57   #334
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Thanks for the info 4x4, i didnt know the Escape and the Freelander were the same.
The Defender is an amazing off roader, agreed, but it struggles in most other departments. Its on road characteristics are not great, the interiors are poor and its really expensive.
For a vehicle that is so crude it costs 21k+ in the U.K, thats despite being built here. so one can expect it to cost approx 25 lacs in India, even if its locally put together.
The main reason for this is the car is made using a lot of manual labour (the expensive less productive English type). I cant understand whats delaying Tata to bring it to India and launch a better revised model at half the price.
But at this price (approx. 25 lacs) i'd have a 4x4 Xenon and a 2x4 safari in my car porch. also perhaps save a couple of lacs for fuel.
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Old 6th March 2009, 21:43   #335
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The Defender is an amazing off roader, agreed, but it struggles in most other departments. Its on road characteristics are not great, the interiors are poor and its really expensive.
For a vehicle that is so crude it costs 21k+ in the U.K, thats despite being built here. so one can expect it to cost approx 25 lacs in India, even if its locally put together.
The main reason for this is the car is made using a lot of manual labour (the expensive less productive English type). I cant understand whats delaying Tata to bring it to India and launch a better revised model at half the price.
But at this price (approx. 25 lacs) i'd have a 4x4 Xenon and a 2x4 safari in my car porch. also perhaps save a couple of lacs for fuel.
The 2007 and newer Defender models came with the Ford Transit TDCI engine and six speed manual gearbox. The interiors are have been improved drastically. You should check out the 2007 and newer models. I am sure Tata will not want to pay licensing fees to Ford for the power train as it will add to the cost. They might revert back to an updated version of the Landrover TDI 300 engine.

You are right about the cost of the vehicle. It's mostly hand build with a huge labor component. The whole body is a series of panels assembled together on a frame unlike the unibody cars.
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Old 6th March 2009, 21:59   #336
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Freelander is not a re-badged Escape. Its not even built on the same platform...not even close. Escape is engineered by Mazda in Japan and is a sibling of the Mazda Tribute. How did Escape get an NCAP rating if its not even sold in Europe?

Freelander/LR2 is built on the EUCD platform and shares a platform with Volvo S60/Mondeo among others. It even comes with a transverse i-6 engine like the Volvo. It may not be as good as a defender but its one of the most capable off roaders out there.

we are waay OT already!

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
No. What I mean is that the Freelander is a re badged Ford Escape. Defender is the only true Landrover left after the Ford Acquisition. The rest are put together from the Ford parts bin. The Ford Escape btw also had 5 Start NCAP safety rating.
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Thanks for the info 4x4, i didnt know the Escape and the Freelander were the same.

Last edited by Mpower : 7th March 2009 at 01:23.
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Old 7th March 2009, 00:15   #337
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Freelander is not a re-badged Escape. Its not even built on the same platform...not even close. Escape is engineered by Mazda in Japan and is a sibling of the Mazda Tribute. How did Escape get an NCAP rating if its not even sold in Europe?
You are right. It based on the Ford Mondeo platform and not the Tribute/Escape platform.
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Old 7th March 2009, 00:50   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
No. What I mean is that the Freelander is a re badged Ford Escape. Defender is the only true Landrover left after the Ford Acquisition. The rest are put together from the Ford parts bin. The Ford Escape btw also had 5 Start NCAP safety rating..

My point is that if you want a Land Rover get a real one. Don't be fooled into buying a Ford with some modifications and a Landrover badge slapped on it.
Hey, you got that one wrong. They do NOT share the platform at all. They just look similar but that is about it all.

Here are the stats:
Ford Escape: Ford CD2 platform (Mazda 626 really)

Wheelbase (in.) 103.1
Length 174.7
Vehicle Height with options (in.) 70
Vehicle width without mirrors (in.) 71.1
Track — front/rear (in.) 61.1/60.4

Land Rover Freelander: Ford EUCD platform

Wheelbase (in.) 104.7
Length 177.1
Vehicle Height with options (in.) 68.5
Vehicle width without mirrors (in.) 75.1
Track — front/rear (in.) 63.0/--

They have no dimensional commonality. The EUCD platform and the CD2 platform are totally different. EUCD stems from the C1 platform, and CD2 stems from the Mazda 626. So it is not so simple.

Read it off: UK: Land Rover intros HST trim for Freelander 2 and Range Rover Sport

BH.

Last edited by BurningHeart : 7th March 2009 at 00:51.
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Old 7th March 2009, 13:57   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
No. What I mean is that the Freelander is a re badged Ford Escape. Defender is the only true Landrover left after the Ford Acquisition. The rest are put together from the Ford parts bin. The Ford Escape btw also had 5 Start NCAP safety rating..

My point is that if you want a Land Rover get a real one. Don't be fooled into buying a Ford with some modifications and a Landrover badge slapped on it.
How about the Discovery 3?

How about the Range Rover? Until recently it was using BMW engines. The shift to Ford engines occurred late. The Range Rover was not even developed under Ford ownership.

If Land Rover is just Defender I cannot imagine that Tata would have paid their hard earned money for it. Apart from the Middle East (perhaps) there are not many countries in this world were Defender is used for personal transport. Its a fantastic vehicle which can wade through water and marshy lands. Unfortunately the bulk of the customers with cash do not cross marshes on the way to their office!
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Old 7th March 2009, 14:25   #340
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The Discovery 3 starts at almost 30k, where as the Freelander 2 starts at a more reasonable 20k. I feel Tata should at least take the underpinnings from the Freelander 2 if not the vehicle itself instead of investing in a new Safari.
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Old 7th March 2009, 15:14   #341
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Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
I had great expectations from sumo grande after seeing years of heavily disguised test mules and when the final product was unveiled- it turned out to be a total letdown.

poor fit and finish, 13-year old chassis, pathetic interior quality, sloppy handling, unrefined motor and typical tata reliability problems meant it had to flop.

thank god it flopped.tata does not deserve to make cars and muvs/ suvs anymore.
when will they learn?
first the safari 2.2, then sumo grande, and now indicruz! common, tata, learn to make quality product otherwise you will be doomed.

anyway, i have stopped having expectations from tata products, including the upcoming indigo vista, no matter how cheap they may be, they will never be called "world class".

and this comes from a guy who is doing training at tata motors (commercial vehicles-school bus division). the dealer of tata motors whom I visited today was explaining me negative points of tata buses and these buses don't deserve to sell as well as swaraj mazda buses.
When people have nothing else to do they criticize, the dealer in this case. Its not as if people dont have any options and are being forced to buy Tata buses... its an open market and if a certain product sells it ought to be good compared to the other in the segment. This is especially true for the commercial vehicle segment where longivity, reliability is the order of the day than looks or performance.

But I do agree with the plastics part... Tata does lacks the will as far as interiors plastics and fit and finish are concerned. I mean how difficult can it be?
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Old 7th March 2009, 16:41   #342
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Not sure, if Tata wants to unveil the xrossover as the new Safari, but from the pictures it does look more like a car based on the xcrossover platform, than a traditional SUV platform, like Safari's. Moreover, I think that car designs should have a sense of continuity, so that the customer can identify with the newer models, and this becomes all the more important for repeat buyers and is infact a good brand building exercise. Examples like the chrysler minivan, land rover, range rover are good enough to prove this point, which brings me to my gripe as to why TATA does not stick to it's basic design, when it comes to Safari - that is if this car in the pictures is going to be the next safari. Tata has done that with Indica and Sumo, and it can definitely bring in considerable changes in the new Safari, while keeping a certain connection alive. This car looks more like a Toyota Innova with an ever worse jawline.
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Old 7th March 2009, 17:17   #343
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I guess tata want to compete with mahindra's Xylo it seemz!!!!
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Old 7th March 2009, 17:22   #344
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
How about the Discovery 3?
I think this is based on a modifed Ford U2 platform shared with the Ford Explorer and Mercury Mountainer. Discovery 3 was developed under Ford ownership.

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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
How about the Range Rover? Until recently it was using BMW engines. The shift to Ford engines occurred late. The Range Rover was not even developed under Ford ownership.
BMW had a disastrous experience of owing the Rover group many years back. The current Range Rover (not Range Rover Sport) was developed by BMW and that is why the earlier versions had the BMW 4.4 V8. After ford bought Land Rover from BMW, they put in a modifed Jaguar V8 since they had bought Jaguar as well and did not want to pay a license to BMW for the engines.
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Old 7th March 2009, 18:27   #345
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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Freelander is not a re-badged Escape. Its not even built on the same platform...not even close. Escape is engineered by Mazda in Japan and is a sibling of the Mazda Tribute. How did Escape get an NCAP rating if its not even sold in Europe?

Freelander/LR2 is built on the EUCD platform and shares a platform with Volvo S60/Mondeo among others. It even comes with a transverse i-6 engine like the Volvo. It may not be as good as a defender but its one of the most capable off roaders out there.
The Freelander 2 is not based on the Mazda, its the other way around. It shares its underpinnings with the Volvo S80 (not 60) and to a certain extent with the XC90. The Mazda CX came out afterwards, am not sure if it shares the same platform.

But yeah the whole range is a hotch-potch of various legacies, starting with the Buick V8 engine from the 60s (which is where the Jaguar V8s came from - that includes the 4.2 in my STR and the 3.9 in my truck - the 4.0, 4.6 and 4.8s also come from the same family, the only changes being the stroke and the ignition), some LR platforms which were later used by Ford. There is very little BMW in the range, though - the only BMW contribution was the EFI systems for the Jaguar/Land Rover V8s.
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