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Old 26th June 2010, 23:01   #706
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Originally Posted by v12 View Post
Bro spotted this a few weeks back at a Worli pump.
Hey V12, great find there! That to me, looks like the base variant of the Aria! I love the swoop of the upper window line; looks fantastic! Otherwise, it doesn't look too bad. Just terribly under-tyred!
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Old 26th June 2010, 23:23   #707
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Well, with my experience with Tatas in past, i have learnt to stay away from their products, the hard way. I cant simply accept the theory that niggles & issues are a part & parcel of a tata car. why should it be when i am paying more than the competition whose offering a reliable car?

but yes, i dont care a damn about plastic quality, panel gaps, etc. all i am concerned is about engine performance, seating comfort, street presence & build quality. in most of the mentioned factors, the indian SUVs easily beats the oh-so-good innova.

also, i do not agree that safari sells less because its a "premium offroader" or a "luxury 5 seater". No. it is a simple 7 seater SUV like the scorpio. but sadly, it has earned a bad reputation for itself with constant issues & being heavy on the pocket. whatever little it sells, its because it has a huge fan following. i have seen many guys who dreams of owning a safari one day.

coming back to the topic- the aria. i feel its a very good product by tata & even though i have had many bad experiences with tatas, i still would not degrade any of its product, atleast not before its launch. visibly, i feel its a great product with tremendous street presence (in the pic V12 has posted, the car looks huge & classy), the interiors are good, the feature list is great, the 140 bhp engine is good enough & i know being a tata, it would be cheap.
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Old 26th June 2010, 23:59   #708
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Well, with my experience with Tatas in past, i have learnt to stay away from their products, the hard way. I cant simply accept the theory that niggles & issues are a part & parcel of a tata car. why should it be when i am paying more than the competition whose offering a reliable car?

but yes, i dont care a damn about plastic quality, panel gaps, etc. all i am concerned is about engine performance, seating comfort, street presence & build quality. in most of the mentioned factors, the indian SUVs easily beats the oh-so-good innova.

also, i do not agree that safari sells less because its a "premium offroader" or a "luxury 5 seater". No. it is a simple 7 seater SUV like the scorpio. but sadly, it has earned a bad reputation for itself with constant issues & being heavy on the pocket. whatever little it sells, its because it has a huge fan following. i have seen many guys who dreams of owning a safari one day.

coming back to the topic- the aria. i feel its a very good product by tata & even though i have had many bad experiences with tatas, i still would not degrade any of its product, atleast not before its launch. visibly, i feel its a great product with tremendous street presence (in the pic V12 has posted, the car looks huge & classy), the interiors are good, the feature list is great, the 140 bhp engine is good enough & i know being a tata, it would be cheap.
I also have a similar opinion as you have. But to clarify I did not say that Safari is either premium or luxury. I am saying that Scorpio/Innova 7 seater is better than Safari 7 seater just because of the seat configuration. You cannot clearly say that safari is a "simple 7 seater". It is really meant for 5 people, may be 7 in short trips. It used to sell better when it was VFM on that price point. But not after Scorpio re-design/price reduction.

But again the discussion itself is not about safari, it is about TATA already selling products in 10L + price points. So, all I am trying to say is that ARIA will not be a disaster because of the price point (10L + or 14L+).

Its success will entirely dependent of the amount of features, build quality, refinement, etc. at the comparable price range.
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Old 27th June 2010, 00:20   #709
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From the pic it appears that it has a low GC. Nothing more than 180 (like SX4). It questions its ability as a serious off-roader. From this particular view the engine compartment looks very small as compared to the body.

IMHO the success of this vehicle lies in one fact- a competitive pricing!
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Old 27th June 2010, 10:51   #710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v12 View Post
Bro spotted this a few weeks back at a Worli pump.
Is this pump the one before Atria??? The Aria looks a bit undertyred . But if this is the base version then Im glad it comes with body coloured bumpers. The ones with black bumpers which I saw on NH4 did not look too good. Great catch.
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Old 27th June 2010, 12:03   #711
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NOTE: this is purely hearsay so please dont pounce on me if it appears a wild figment of imagination

As some of the older members may be aware, I have a few friends working in reasonably senior positions in TML. Now, what i got to hear from one of them is that in a product marketing discussion, one of the head honchos of TML have asked the marketing team to position the top end 4x4 version of the Aria as a cheaper alternative to , wait for it......... the FORTUNER!!!!

My friend and his team were quite incredulous on hearing this and are trying their best to dissuade this line of action.

will be interesting to see how the Aria is finally positioned.
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Old 27th June 2010, 13:47   #712
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@VINAYDAS : A vehicle that can seat 4 Adults can not simply fit in people mover market. Anyway this thread is about ARAI and not about Safari which was launched in 1998 and finds close to 1000 Buyers every month despite being on road for 12 years.

@Raj : No one says Safari is premium or anything but yes it is VFM and only option if you need a 4WD which can comfortably goes to places and one of the two options if you need a 2WD which can travel to length and breadth of country without scrapping bottom ( other is of-course Scorpio).

Original Safari had quite reliable engine and in 2.2 Dicor as well the so called niggles are not serious issues. Belive me or not largest selling Diesel engine ( Swift) brush aside simple problems like RPM fluctuation due to injector chocking , turbo hose going off and Maruti has enough confidence not to go an perpitual parts replacement spree and shoo away customer fixing and charging a reasonable amount.

@himanshugoswami : Well with the kind of features with the TML SA told me after receiving their trainings I see ARAIA can compete against fortuner. Some of these features such as Hill Cilmb Assit and Hill descent assist are not there in fortuner. Toyota have great brand value but then Aria is being sold full 7 lakhs lower due to lack of brand value so they have full rights to call it cheaper alternatives.

OFFTOPIC but BTW can some one tell why fortuners belch out so much of black smoke during initial acceleration? I have seen this for every other fortuner I see in the city. Innova , Scorpio or other CR diesels do not have this feature ?
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Old 27th June 2010, 18:03   #713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaureanBull View Post
From the pic it appears that it has a low GC. Nothing more than 180 (like SX4). It questions its ability as a serious off-roader. From this particular view the engine compartment looks very small as compared to the body.

IMHO the success of this vehicle lies in one fact- a competitive pricing!
GC of SX4 is 180 mm & GC of scorpio is also 180 mm, that does not mean both vehicles have the same GC. in rear wheel drive vehicles, especially SUVs, the lowest point is the rear differential. a rear differential lifts and dips along with the rear wheels so chances of it scraping the ground is very rare. so the aria, even if it has a GC of only 180 mm, it will be more than the SX4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
@VINAYDAS : A vehicle that can seat 4 Adults can not simply fit in people mover market. Anyway this thread is about ARAI and not about Safari which was launched in 1998 and finds close to 1000 Buyers every month despite being on road for 12 years.
so what buddy? the 800 was launched in 1988, it still used to outsell the zen & the likes. the qualis was launched in 80's, it still used to outsell both the scorpio & safari.

Quote:
@Raj : No one says Safari is premium or anything but yes it is VFM and only option if you need a 4WD which can comfortably goes to places and one of the two options if you need a 2WD which can travel to length and breadth of country without scrapping bottom ( other is of-course Scorpio).
sorry, i dont feel the safari is VFM. for 14 lakhs, the 4x4 safari is anything but VFM.

Quote:
Original Safari had quite reliable engine and in 2.2 Dicor as well the so called niggles are not serious issues. Belive me or not largest selling Diesel engine ( Swift) brush aside simple problems like RPM fluctuation due to injector chocking , turbo hose going off and Maruti has enough confidence not to go an perpitual parts replacement spree and shoo away customer fixing and charging a reasonable amount.
yes, the older safaris had only other issues but atleast the engine was reliable. with the 2.2, even the engine is not trustworthy!

anyways, lets stick to the topic & discuss about the safari elsewhere.

Quote:
@himanshugoswami : Well with the kind of features with the TML SA told me after receiving their trainings I see ARAIA can compete against fortuner. Some of these features such as Hill Cilmb Assit and Hill descent assist are not there in fortuner. Toyota have great brand value but then Aria is being sold full 7 lakhs lower due to lack of brand value so they have full rights to call it cheaper alternatives.
very true. those who have no issues with the tata brand are looking for maximum bang for the buck will opt for the aria instead of the fortuner. what is the fortuner? an overpriced innova on stilts!

Quote:
OFFTOPIC but BTW can some one tell why fortuners belch out so much of black smoke during initial acceleration? I have seen this for every other fortuner I see in the city. Innova , Scorpio or other CR diesels do not have this feature ?
infact, this black smoke is a problem with innovas too. so i feel toyota diesel engines do emit black smoke during hard acceleration. my innova used to have problems in getting PUC, the PUC guy had told me that both the qualis & innova has issues getting PUC easily. the fortuner was not launched then.
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Old 27th June 2010, 18:31   #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
GC of SX4 is 180 mm & GC of scorpio is also 180 mm, that does not mean both vehicles have the same GC. in rear wheel drive vehicles, especially SUVs, the lowest point is the rear differential. a rear differential lifts and dips along with the rear wheels so chances of it scraping the ground is very rare. so the aria, even if it has a GC of only 180 mm, it will be more than the SX4.
@raj : That was a very good piece of information. Thx. I was not aware that the method to measure the GC is different for a sedan and a SUV.

But IMO the GC is less than Scorpio/Safari (comparing SUVs now). Thats why I said it may not be offroader like the other two.
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Old 27th June 2010, 18:52   #715
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ARIA is a 'Luxury' cum 'Limited offroader'. It is aimed at providing more of a comfortability, yet having limited offroading capabilities to explore some or more of 'Regular Offroading' that happens on Leh or similar terrains.
That's my way of conveying, other's may have different. I donot believe in making conceptions about the car during it's pre-launch. Untill, the ARIA hits the road it is really difficult to know it's capabilities.

"A vehicle on papers is totally different than it's on the road"

A theoritical aspect is totally different when it comes to practical. Who knows that ARIA might be doing 'Round Burnouts' across the SUVs like Fortuner or Endeavour when it comes really on the road.

My words are totally unrelated to any of the posts.
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Old 27th June 2010, 19:04   #716
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Well with the kind of features with the TML SA told me after receiving their trainings I see ARAIA can compete against fortuner.

Some of these features such as Hill Cilmb Assit and Hill descent assist are not there in fortuner.

Toyota have great brand value but then Aria is being sold full 7 lakhs lower due to lack of brand value so they have full rights to call it cheaper alternatives.
There are thousands of people waiting for their Fortuner to be delivered, a lot of them are paying premium running into lacs, Do you know Why? Not because it comes with some X, Y or Z features, if you check the equipment list you will be surprised to know its pretty basic. It's the Toyota reliablity, image, the indestructible feel and being from company which makes the Legendary Landcruiser and Prado.

What good are features like Hill start assist and hill descent assist with such a low GC in MUV? Lets not forget its a MUV not a SUV. I have seen a lot of friends and relatives suffer just because they bought a Safari, they would never be able to match Toyota's legendary reliability.

With the kind of reputation Tata has now, i am sure they would be able to compete the Innova leave alone the Fortuner.

Imagine, What are the chances of a Toyota Innova running fine with mileage above 2 Lac Kms? Very Very High, Ask any taxi operator. What are the chances of a Safari coming with manufacturing defect? Very Very High.
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Old 27th June 2010, 20:34   #717
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@ anshuman: totally agree to whatever you said, everything from toyota's image/reliability to tata's defects.

but i feel if the aria is really superior in terms of quality & reliability to the safari, then i would say its a worthy, in fact a better alternative to the fortuner. yes, i repeat, only if its superior in quality & reliability.

99% of the fortuner owners in india will never take it for off roading. they just buy it for the image it potrays. if at all you need a comfortable family vehicle, there is no doubt that the innova is a better vehicle. what use is fortuner's 4x4 to those who will use it for office trips? but still it sells & the reason is only & only the image, styling, street presence & brand value.
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Old 27th June 2010, 21:21   #718
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There is still a whole lot of potential customers who wants more bang for their buck instead of going for a established brand with lesser amenities/space etc. This is exactly where TATA comes in the picture.

Everytime there is a discussion about TATA cars it always ends up with the quality and reliability issues. Im not saying TATA is at par with with its Japanese /korean rivals, no not at all. But the improvement that TATA has shown with its past few launches is quite substaintial. also they seem to be making the right use of the J-LR acquisition with respect to interior design/technology.

The car/crossover SUV in question here the ARIA is is by far the most technologically advanced car, both with respect to the electronics as well as the chassis etc from TATA. No one has seen anything like this from TATA yet so its better if we wait for ARIA to be launched.

How the ARIA affects the Innova/Fortuner I do not know but one thing I know its going to surely have a huge impact on the market, either by proving itself as a product or spawning a new segment of cars in India.
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Old 27th June 2010, 22:04   #719
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@anshuman : Thousands in waiting for fortuner is little bit of far fetched , Yes there is a demand. but then if brand value and reliability was there they would have priced it at 24 Lakhs and that exactly is the point.


@Raj : well the discussion was if someone will pay 10+ lakh for a TML vehicle. So the example of Safari came. I just referred to 1998 becuase they were the first and did not probably forsee that 3ed row seating in SUV is a selling point here. A 5 seater can not sell as much as a proper 8 seater.

About 4X4 for 14 lakh that is with ABS and dual airbag ( EX is 11L) and a similar Scorpio ( with AT) is 14.5 IMHO with extramly poor support and reliability ( as per the problem report of Scorpio AT) so it is still the only option or VFM till somone launches a 4x4 comfortable railroader at lower price point

I do not think others give a sterling example of reliability I would prefer a door rattle or some hose clip coming off any day over leak in gearbox or break failure.

Last edited by amitk26 : 27th June 2010 at 22:06.
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Old 27th June 2010, 22:15   #720
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post

99% of the fortuner owners in india will never take it for off roading. they just buy it for the image it potrays. if at all you need a comfortable family vehicle, there is no doubt that the innova is a better vehicle. what use is fortuner's 4x4 to those who will use it for office trips? but still it sells & the reason is only & only the image, styling, street presence & brand value.
By that logic what use is a Safari or any other SUV in the 10 lac bracket. Most owners dont take them offroading.

Separately, I agree that positioning Aria against Fortuner is foolish. I can imagine only a minuscule amount of consumers wanting to compare Aria and Fortuner together.

Also strictly my opinion, no matter my history of associated with reliable tata products for the last decade, I will not put my money on a Tata product costing in the range of 12 to 15 lacs.
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